Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith
- Thread starter DevotiontoBible
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Who has blessed us...who are the us...us in Christ. No one was in Christ before the foundation of the world. The heavenly blessings were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. That's the context. "Us" is not the context. In Him, In Christ, in the beloved...Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the context and the heavenly blessings that are in Him.
Are you turning Calvinist on us?
Are you turning Calvinist on us?
E
lol.. No, I am not turning calvanist, But you are wrong.
He ELECTED Us, and he PREDESTINED us, based , according to scripture, on foreknowledge.
To God. I was just as saved before the foundation of the earth than I am now. why? Because he CHOSE to save all who would recieve his gift based on their faith in him.
You asked me to prove it in scripture I did, thank you.
He ELECTED Us, and he PREDESTINED us, based , according to scripture, on foreknowledge.
To God. I was just as saved before the foundation of the earth than I am now. why? Because he CHOSE to save all who would recieve his gift based on their faith in him.
You asked me to prove it in scripture I did, thank you.
E
All I want you to do is admit you understand that the word belief has many meanings, which may include trust. where as the word faith ALWAYS has with it the idea of trust.
Which I have been saying for awhile now. Yet for some reason, You keep saying you do not understand.
How would you feel if you kept telling someone the same thing over again, and they kept saying you did not say it, said it in a way which is not what you said to begin with?
so it was a process.. thank you.
That is not how it is done. This is how you do it properly:
συνέκλεισεν/συγκλείω
2 verses were found.
Romans 11:32 (Manuscript Comparator) (Audio: WH 1 WH 2 Byz)
συνέκλεισεν γὰρ ὁ θεὸς τοὺς πάντας εἰς ἀπείθειαν ἵνα τοὺς πάντας ἐλεήσῃ.
Galatians 3:22 (Manuscript Comparator) (Audio: WH 1 WH 2 Byz)
ἀλλὰ συνέκλεισεν ἡ γραφὴ τὰ πάντα ὑπὸ ἁμαρτίαν ἵνα ἡ ἐπαγγελία ἐκ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ δοθῇ τοῖς πιστεύουσιν.
συνέκλεισεν/συγκλείω
2 verses were found.
Romans 11:32 (Manuscript Comparator) (Audio: WH 1 WH 2 Byz)
συνέκλεισεν γὰρ ὁ θεὸς τοὺς πάντας εἰς ἀπείθειαν ἵνα τοὺς πάντας ἐλεήσῃ.
Galatians 3:22 (Manuscript Comparator) (Audio: WH 1 WH 2 Byz)
ἀλλὰ συνέκλεισεν ἡ γραφὴ τὰ πάντα ὑπὸ ἁμαρτίαν ἵνα ἡ ἐπαγγελία ἐκ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ δοθῇ τοῖς πιστεύουσιν.
If I do not understand then I just don't. How can I admit to understanding what I don't understand? You are asking an impossibility from me. But you said you didn't want to discuss it any more with me. If you have changed your mind that is great, but I'm finding it hard to do as you wish and not discuss it while you are continuing to engage me over it...what should I do, brother?
E
No, that is not how you do it, How you do it is you actually look up the greek in the passages written.
Which I did,
The word SIN is not in Rom 11, The word DISOBEDIENCE is not in Gal 3
In fact if you look at what you posted. You will see you just proved I was right. Look at the bolded words. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. The are the very words I POSTED.
so Thank you for proving me right, and proving why you do not do it the way you did it. .
Which I did,
The word SIN is not in Rom 11, The word DISOBEDIENCE is not in Gal 3
In fact if you look at what you posted. You will see you just proved I was right. Look at the bolded words. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. The are the very words I POSTED.
so Thank you for proving me right, and proving why you do not do it the way you did it. .
E
I suppose you could look at it as a process that took place for me over the course of a few days, yes. It did not take many years of study for me to receive the Spirit. I am fine with it having taken years of study to receive Him for you. It doesn't really matter to me as long as you HAVE received the gift of the Spirit!
It still was not one minute you did not even know about God or that you were a sinner who deserved condemnation, to all of a sudden Knowing God, and you were a sinner, and all of a sudden, the HS opened your eyes and you had faith at the very same SECOND.
I personally believe the HS had been working on you for longer than just a few days, what caused you to look at the word. how long had you been thinking of looking at the word?
I think we will see (when we get to heaven) there was many thing going on in our lives sometimes for months or years where God was working on our heart. and at the right time and the right place (when he knew we were ready) all those things came together and you became the tax collector who fell on your knees.
Not saying this to argue with you, or say your wrong, this is just what I have witnessed in so many people. and what I believe.
Are we now discussing it again? I don't want you to scream at me that I insist on engaging in conversation with you on the matter after you have have said you do not want to have further conversation on the matter because you feel I am mocking and dishonest. I am fine either way but I am confused as to what you want regarding it.
But you are arguing a strawman. You need to go back and read what we are actually discussing and address the issue unless you are purposely erecting a strawman. If you want to discuss the topic then address the verb of what God is doing in Ro 11:32. The topic is that God is NOT causing or willing anybody to disobey Him as you Calvinists are trying to argue that He is. You guys are confusing God with Satan. It isn't God who wants people to disobey Him, that's Satan.
I say I proved it through Scripture. I guess it's all in what each of us finds as the context of Ephesians 1. Agree to disagree.
Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
God knows us now that we are in Christ. How does He know us? Through His Spirit that He gave us upon believing in the gospel.
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
God's seal is His Holy Spirit. God knows who are His by His Spirit that He has placed inside each believer. If you do not have His Spirit, God does not know you. You will hear the chilling words, depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you.
Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
God knows us now that we are in Christ. How does He know us? Through His Spirit that He gave us upon believing in the gospel.
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
God's seal is His Holy Spirit. God knows who are His by His Spirit that He has placed inside each believer. If you do not have His Spirit, God does not know you. You will hear the chilling words, depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you.
E
Dude, You said they said the same think in the greek, I have proven they do not. Can you humble yourself for a minute and say you were wrong, are are you going to blame shift and make excuses for your inability to back what you said.
It does not matter what if the verbs are the same, what follows the verbs are different so they are not saying the same thing
It does not matter what if the verbs are the same, what follows the verbs are different so they are not saying the same thing
Utter nonsense. How long are you going to censure God with your false doctrine?
According as G2531 he hath chosen G1586 us G2248 in G1722 him G846 before G4253 the foundation G2602 of the world, G2889 that we G2248 should be G1511 holy G40 and G2532 without blame G299 before G2714 him G846 in G1722 love:G26 - KJV
ἡμᾶς
hēmas
Thayer Definition:
1) us, we, our etc.
Part of Speech: pronoun
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: accusative case plural of G1473
In john146's estimation it is OK for him to "remove words" from Scripture, by using the word of God in an underhanded way (claiming the word "us" isn't in the context, really sneaky denial of truth!!), while at the same time he falsely blasts the better versions we have for our use by claiming they do what he just did himself.
According as G2531 he hath chosen G1586 us G2248 in G1722 him G846 before G4253 the foundation G2602 of the world, G2889 that we G2248 should be G1511 holy G40 and G2532 without blame G299 before G2714 him G846 in G1722 love:G26 - KJV
ἡμᾶς
hēmas
Thayer Definition:
1) us, we, our etc.
Part of Speech: pronoun
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: accusative case plural of G1473
In john146's estimation it is OK for him to "remove words" from Scripture, by using the word of God in an underhanded way (claiming the word "us" isn't in the context, really sneaky denial of truth!!), while at the same time he falsely blasts the better versions we have for our use by claiming they do what he just did himself.
Last edited:
I knew about the concept of God, that some people did believe He existed. I never did believe He existed. One day I read the gospel (because I watched a show on Nostradamus and thought Jesus might be the same, where people believed He could tell the future, but I wasn't sure about if He predicted the future or not). So I was looking for if He told the future.
I wasn't sure where to find The part of the book where Jesus came in so I started at the beginning but I saw the literary device of fairytale, even down to the poisoned piece of fruit and the prince and princess, although I thought it was a poorly written fairytale.
So then I skipped to the end. I recognized the literary device there right away too. It was science fiction, but once again, I thought it poorly written science fiction., but it piqued my interest as to why some of the words were in red ink. So I found more red ink and figured out that the red ink had led me to the part I wanted, to see if Jesus said anything about the future.
So I began reading where the red ink started. Sometime between Mathew and john, I suddenly saw that impossible as it seemed, it was the truth. I was very distraught. Not about sin. I still didn't even understand exactly what was sin and what wasn't. I was so distraught because I had ignored God all my life because I hadn't even believed He existed.so when I was on the floor shrieking and breaking into a million pieces, my only thought, over and over again was: I'm so sorry I didn't know I didn't know oh my god I'm so sorry.
So if you need me now to say it didn't happen in one moment that I could see, I can't. I saw in one moment when the moment before I hadn't seen.
I wasn't sure where to find The part of the book where Jesus came in so I started at the beginning but I saw the literary device of fairytale, even down to the poisoned piece of fruit and the prince and princess, although I thought it was a poorly written fairytale.
So then I skipped to the end. I recognized the literary device there right away too. It was science fiction, but once again, I thought it poorly written science fiction., but it piqued my interest as to why some of the words were in red ink. So I found more red ink and figured out that the red ink had led me to the part I wanted, to see if Jesus said anything about the future.
So I began reading where the red ink started. Sometime between Mathew and john, I suddenly saw that impossible as it seemed, it was the truth. I was very distraught. Not about sin. I still didn't even understand exactly what was sin and what wasn't. I was so distraught because I had ignored God all my life because I hadn't even believed He existed.so when I was on the floor shrieking and breaking into a million pieces, my only thought, over and over again was: I'm so sorry I didn't know I didn't know oh my god I'm so sorry.
So if you need me now to say it didn't happen in one moment that I could see, I can't. I saw in one moment when the moment before I hadn't seen.