DELIVER US FROM DELIVERANCE MINISTERS

[Ariel82]

The key to understanding Romans 7 is accepting the fact you have to DIE to self before you can be BORN AGAIN in CHRIST.

Have you died?

Romans 7
But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

4Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

 

[Ariel82]

Romans 8
10But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesusd from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

*****

. 22For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.


*********

We know these bodies are temporarily tents and we are sorjourners making our way back home to our Heavenly Father. One day these sinful bodies that are dying every day will turn to dust and we will be given our Resurrected bodies that death, illness or corruption shall not touch.

However you must choose to DIE, to pickup your cross and FOLLOW Jesus. Otherwise, you may never know the glory of what it truly means to be a beloved child of God.

 

[oldethennew]

oh yes,

our 'old-man' has to 'die' and submit to Christ's ways, but this can only happen if and when He calls...

the pure evidence is always and fore-most in our hearts, and then the 'world' will witness' our
'conversion' - as in 'talk the talk and walk the walk', else all is 'false' and bs...

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

Why was Paul doing something against his will; he doesn't want to do it, and is trying not to do it, whatever it might be, but finds himself doing it anyway?

​Romans 7

15 For that which I do (the failure) I allow not (should have been translated, "I understand not"; these are not the words of an unsaved man, as some claim, but rather a Believer who is trying and failing): for what I would, that do I not (refers to the obedience he wants to render to Christ, but rather fails; why? as Paul explained, the Believer is married to Christ, but is being unfaithful to Christ by spiritually cohabiting with the Law, which frustrates the Grace of God; that means the Holy Spirit will not help such a person, which guarantees failure [Gal. 2:21]); but what I hate, that do I (refers to sin in his life hates, but finds himself unable to stop; unfortunately, due to the fact of not understanding the Cross as it refers to Sanctification, this is the plight of most modern Christians).

16 If then I do that which I would not (presents Paul doing something against his will; he doesn't want to do it, and is trying not to do it, whatever it might be, but finds himself doing it anyway), I consent unto the Law that it is good (simply means that the Law of God is working as it is supposed to work; it defines sin, portraying the fact that the sin nature will rule in man's heart if not addressed properly).

17 Now then it is no more I that do it (this has been misconstrued by many! it means, "I may be failing, but it's not what I want to do "; no true Christian wants to sin because now the Divine Nature is in his life and it is supposed to rule, not the sin nature [2 Peter 1:4]), but sin (the sin nature) that dwells in me (despite the fact that some preachers claim the sin nature is gone from the Christian, Paul here plainly says that the sin nature is still in the Christian; however, if our Faith remains constant in the Cross, the sin nature will be dormant, causing us no problem; otherwise, it will cause great problems; while the sin nature "dwells" in us, it is not to"rule" in us).

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing (speaks of man's own ability, or rather the lack thereof in comparison to the Holy Spirit, at least when it comes to spiritual things): for to will is present with me (Paul is speaking here of his willpower; regrettably, most modern Christians are trying to live for God by means of willpower, thinking falsely that since they have come to Christ, they are nowfree to say "no" to sin; that is the wrong way to look at the situation; the Believer cannot live for God by the strength of willpower; italone is not enough; the Believer must exercise Faith in Christ, which automatically says, "no" to the things of the world); but how to perform that which is good I find not (outside of the Cross, it is impossible to find a way to do good).

19 For the good that I would I do not (if I depend on self, and not the Cross): but the evil which I would not (don't want to do), that I do (which is exactly what every Believer will do no matter how hard he tries to do otherwise, if he tries to live this outside of the Cross [Gal. 2:20-21]).

20 Now if I do that I would not (which is exactly what will happen if the Believer tries to live this life outside of God's Prescribed Order), it is no more I that do it, but sin (the sin nature) that dwells in me (this emphatically states that the Believer has a sin nature; in the original Greek Text, if it contains the definite article before the word "sin" which originally did read "the sin," it is not speaking of acts of sin, but rather the sin nature or the evil nature; the idea is not getting rid of the sin nature, which actually cannot be done, but rather controlling it, which the Apostle has told us how to do in Rom., Chpts. 6 and 8; when the Trump sounds, we will be changed and there will be no more sin nature [Rom. 8:23]).

21 I find then a Law (does not refer in this case to the Law of Moses, but rather to the "Law of sin and death" [Rom. 8:2]), that, when I would do good, evil (the evil nature) is present with me
(the idea is that the sin nature is always going to be with the Believer; there is no hint in the Greek that its stay is temporary, at least until the Trump sounds; we can successfully address the sin nature in only one way, and that is by Faith in Christ and the Cross, which Paul will detail in the next Chapter).

22 For I delight in the Law of God (refers to the moral Law of God ensconced in the Ten Commandments) after the inward man (refers to the spirit and soul of man which has now been regenerated):

23 But I see another Law in my members (the Law of sin and death desiring to use my physical body as an instrument of unrighteousness), warring against the Law of my mind (this is the Law of desire and willpower), and bringing me into captivity to the Law of sin (the Law of sin and death)which is in my members (which will function through my members, and make me a slave to the Law of sin and death; this will happen to the most consecrated Christian if that Christian doesn't constantly exercise Faith in Christ and the Cross that all powers of darkness were defeated [Col. 2:14-15]).

24 O wretched man that I am! (Any Believer who attempts to live for God outside of God's Prescribed Order, which is "Jesus Christ and Him Crucified," will, in fact, live a wretched and miserable existence. This life can only be lived in one way, and that way is the Cross.) Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (The minute he cries "Who," he finds the path to Victory, for he is now calling upon a Person for help, and that Person is Christ; actually, the Greek Text is masculine, indicating a Person).

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord (presents Paul revealing the answer to his own question; Deliverance comes through Jesus Christ Alone, and more particularly what Jesus did at Calvary and the Resurrection). So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God
(the "will" is the trigger, but it within itself can do nothing unless the gun is loaded with explosive power; that Power is the Cross); but with the flesh the Law of sin (if the Believer resorts to the "flesh," [i.e., "self-will, self-effort, religious effort"] which refers to his own ability outside of Christ and the Cross, he will not serve the Law of God, but rather the Law of sin).

​

JSM - The Expositor's Study Bible​

​

​

If the sin nature revives in the Believer (I am not speaking about acts of sin) are they being oppress by Satan through bondage and sin? Are they taken captive by Satan? How does this Believer break free from bondage and sin?

 

[oldethennew]

If the sin nature revives in the Believer (I am not speaking about acts of sin) are they being oppress by Satan through bondage and sin? Are they taken captive by Satan? How does this Believer break free from bondage and sin?

=============================================================

this is a very sad and grievous Post from one who is not only lost, but attempting to mis-lead
those who truly Love and Trust and Serve our Holy Saviour...

 

[7seasrekeyed]

well I'm off to bed perchance to dream (I always do in living color and everything)

did a drive by on the posts and have comments to make but they will have to wait (huh. that rhymes)

sorry...I'm tired and getting silly...2 morrow...

and thanks guys for everyone contributing...think the little ship is steering clear of the rocks...mostly clear of the rocks so be careful how you handle your sails...which way the wind is blowing...don't want the boom to come around and knock you off you feet...happened to me once...not good...that's my sailboat story

 

[heartofdavid]

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this is a very sad and grievous Post from one who is not only lost, but attempting to mis-lead
those who truly Love and Trust and Serve our Holy Saviour...

No
He is referring to the backslider. One who has departed the faith and entrapped in wilful disobedience.
Many of them can not find their way back.
I can help them big time. And if they have demons i can handle driving them out. Even the stubborn ones that say " you can't cast us out"

 

[heartofdavid]

Around mark ch 9:38 the disciples came across a guy in deliverance ministry.
Like some here they properly chastised him,thrashed him,told him he had no such ministry. Probably told him how unscriptural he was also.

You guys would do well to read JESUS' response.
But Jesus didn't stop there. He went on to confirm and support those that work alongside Jesus in casting out demons

 

[heartofdavid]

Btw,word search "devils",apparently Jesus did quite a lot of casting them out.
Interesting how they seem to be connected to sickness

 

[7seasrekeyed]

so we will simply ignore the fact that deliverance ministers do not exist in scripture, we will manufacture them anyway and label them and run to them when someone is in trouble

just too stinkin bad if we cannot find one near where we live

as for any so called deliverance minister casting out a demon as you referenced in yr post 128, if casting out a demon makes one a deliverance minister, then I would be one also

however, dealing with what comes along, simply makes one obedient to the calling of our Lord Jesus Christ

and by the way, I think yr posts to devotiontobible on the other thread really illustrate massive unconcern for someone who is hurting badly

if you think it is more important to push YOUR personal beliefs on someone who needs prayer because of the situation with his daughter who is held captive by false doctrine and demonic teaching (a la Bethel) and tell him his daughter might be called to be a deliverance minister, then I think you suffer from true ignorance and don't know how to identify with another believer in their grief .... Bethel ... this is not a house of God

not to mention the way you attacked valleyofdecision because he touched on a sacred cow

honestly...I don't know when I got so steamed up as when I saw the dribble you wrote to devotiontobible

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Btw,word search "devils",apparently Jesus did quite a lot of casting them out.
Interesting how they seem to be connected to sickness

devils is a mistranslation

there is but one devil and many demons

word search is a game....not a Bible study

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Most of the basis for Deliverance ministers who peddle this lie is is found in the Old Testament and is covering Jews under the old Covenant.

~Deut 5:8-10~

[SUP]8 [/SUP]‘You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. [SUP]9 [/SUP]You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, [SUP]10 [/SUP]but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Most of so called generational curses is learned addictive behaviors people learn.

Great grand pappy was drunk, grandpappy was drunk, pappy was a drunk, so I am drunk. Was this learned addictive behavior? or is it a generational curse?

even though valley left for some reason, I will still answer this post

I don't believe that generational curses are people drinking too much...anyway, there is dna evidence that some people are prone to be habitual users of alcohol...in fact we now know that certain people have what is called 'addictive' personalities

IMO, I understand I am prob in a minority believing curses are still at work. I don't push it but still it is something it might behoove some to look into...and I do recommend that book by Derek Prince

I also disagree that generational curses are mainly addictive behavior

a curse, is a negative force that works against a person and not a behavior

anyway, if someone wants to discuss more about it, I guess we could...otherwise just drop it and read the book if you wish

I've heard all the arguments pro and con...it's not a salvation issue...but I know praying against certain things has certainly helped me

ok. enough of that

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Well, it is pretty hard to post Sciptures about ”deliverance ministries” when there are none! There is the five fold office in Ephesians 4:11, there are gifts of the Holy Spirit, in various places Romans 12:6-8; 1 Cor. 12:8-10, 28; 1 Peter 4:11 none of which are “deliverance.”

But, Jesus did do deliverance, and so did Paul in Acts 16 with the servant girl.

“She continued to do this for many days. But Paul became greatly annoyed, and turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her!” And it came out of her at once.” Acts 16:18

So, deliverance is Scriptural, but a ministry? Not seeing that.

In fact, last year, I had a friend I was supposed to see, in Edmonton, who had been going through depression. She canceled, because she had been to a deliverance person, and ended up feeling much worse afterwards. Surprise, surprise! I wonder how much she had to pay for that?

Which brings me to my point, that if there is no such thing as a deliverance ministry in the Bible, and yet, someone makes you pay for it, probably not from God. I would say more an obsession with the demonic. My friend was from South America, and always got off track about demons. I don’t know how many times several of us had to show her Scriptures to dispel myths and primitive ideas which she could only have gotten growing up in the Catholic Church in South America. (Several of the friends were from there, and this is what they told me!)

So, why do I believe in deliverance? Back when I was a new Christian, little more than a year in the faith, I had my second child and sunk into post partum depression. It wasn’t long, but it was real. I went to church one Sunday and the pastor wanted people who needed to be prayed for to put up their hands. I put mine up, and I was surrounded by people praying. Now, no one cast away any oppressive demons, or shouted or did anything untoward. Instead, it was just deep, sincere prayer. I just felt walls and barriers melting away, and the depression was gone.

So, that is what a real deliverance ministry should be, IMHO. The body of Christ, praying with those who have needs! I hope that answers the questions.

So, deliverance is Scriptural, but a ministry? Not seeing that.

totally agree. it is scriptural but not a ministry. and it is free too...I noted yr short note on yr friend...people can cause great harm doing what God never called them to do in the first place

I think if a demon is in or around a person, prayer is always the answer!

I myself have experienced release from negative forces through prayer and praying for others

it is real...but Jesus power over the enemy is what sets us free...His victory and I think sometimes some people get carried away and believe that they are some kind of demon bashing superstar.

 

[heartofdavid]

devils is a mistranslation

there is but one devil and many demons

word search is a game....not a Bible study

We can call them fallen angels.
Same room
Just a different door.
"Demons" works for me
No game. It is what it is.
Systematic theology

 

[7seasrekeyed]

We can call them fallen angels.
Same room
Just a different door.
"Demons" works for me
No game. It is what it is.
Systematic theology

how many satans are there?

do you just want to nit pick or what?

systematic theology? so we can just make up words or use other words as it suits us?

I call that sloppy

 

[heartofdavid]

so we will simply ignore the fact that deliverance ministers do not exist in scripture, we will manufacture them anyway and label them and run to them when someone is in trouble

just too stinkin bad if we cannot find one near where we live

as for any so called deliverance minister casting out a demon as you referenced in yr post 128, if casting out a demon makes one a deliverance minister, then I would be one also

however, dealing with what comes along, simply makes one obedient to the calling of our Lord Jesus Christ

and by the way, I think yr posts to devotiontobible on the other thread really illustrate massive unconcern for someone who is hurting badly

if you think it is more important to push YOUR personal beliefs on someone who needs prayer because of the situation with his daughter who is held captive by false doctrine and demonic teaching (a la Bethel) and tell him his daughter might be called to be a deliverance minister, then I think you suffer from true ignorance and don't know how to identify with another believer in their grief .... Bethel ... this is not a house of God

not to mention the way you attacked valleyofdecision because he touched on a sacred cow

honestly...I don't know when I got so steamed up as when I saw the dribble you wrote to devotiontobible

Jesus said " cast out demons,heal the sick,raise the dead"

David Hogan ministries has over 200 raised from the dead IN MEXICO.

He has not asked anyone on cc for permission.
Is dead raising a ministry? I mean i cant find it in the word.
But lets just ignore that Jesus commanded it.
Lets shift into word games.

See how that works?

 

[heartofdavid]

how many satans are there?

do you just want to nit pick or what?

systematic theology? so we can just make up words or use other words as it suits us?

I call that sloppy

I guess it can be looked up in the greek since we cant agree on a name for fallen angels.
Or do you believe there are many,many "demons" ?
One demon?

 

[heartofdavid]

Around mark ch 9:38 the disciples came across a guy in deliverance ministry.
Like some here they properly chastised him,thrashed him,told him he had no such ministry. Probably told him how unscriptural he was also.

You guys would do well to read JESUS' response.
But Jesus didn't stop there. He went on to confirm and support those that work alongside Jesus in casting out demons

^^^^^^^^^^^^ this^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[heartofdavid]

.....So they scramble looking up hogan.

Gotta be some chink in the armor.

....just gotta be...

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I guess it can be looked up in the greek since we cant agree on a name for fallen angels.
Or do you believe there are many,many "demons" ?
One demon?

I can speak from experience as well, but I prefer scripture and lining up the experience with scripture and if the Bible does not indicate a ministry existing totally of dealing with demons, then I am going to listen and act on THAT

are you a student of Greek then? maybe get taught by someone who is and then do homework

I don't believe demons are fallen angels to begin with and I don't try to prove it, because it is my opinion and scripture is not definite on that although some think it is

you know, if you somehow think quibbling over little nuances or names is helpful? please find someone of like mind

the main consideration in this thread is...well....go read the op...might help