Are Holy Spirit baptisms claims provable?
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With regards to not stuttering when speaking ‘tongues’ – this just further illustrates that tongues are produced within the speaker’s subconscious; it’s a phenomenon that requires no conscious effort to produce. It's sort of akin to what happens while dreaming. When a person who stutters dreams, if they Are speaking in their dream, they typically do not stutter
Stuttering is, in part, a result of conscious language production. When engaged in glossolalia, the language production centers of the brain are not overly active as glossolalia is not language. Another reason why a person who stutters when speaking will not do so when engaged in glossolalia; they're not producing actual language.
I don’t think non-stuttering in people who stutter is really all that odd or a sign of anything; another common example is that people who stutter, do not do so when they sing; in fact, many famous singers started off singing as a way to work through childhood stuttering (Elvis Presley is perhaps the best example).
Stuttering is, in part, a result of conscious language production. When engaged in glossolalia, the language production centers of the brain are not overly active as glossolalia is not language. Another reason why a person who stutters when speaking will not do so when engaged in glossolalia; they're not producing actual language.
I don’t think non-stuttering in people who stutter is really all that odd or a sign of anything; another common example is that people who stutter, do not do so when they sing; in fact, many famous singers started off singing as a way to work through childhood stuttering (Elvis Presley is perhaps the best example).
Well, i dont know personly anybody who has the batism with the Holy spirit which is taught as extra expierience as pentecostals and charismatics do. And I dont know personly any person who claimes to speak in tongues. Means all christians I met in my life where not real chtiszians because of lack on having this pbaptism and as prove the gift of speaking in tongues. I lnow people who teach and believe to this baptism and speaking in tongues , but they dont have expieriences this by themselves.
I'm not sure one can use 'tongues' as so-called 'initial evidence'; there are passages in the Bible where people receive the Holy Spirit, but there is zero mention or reference to 'tongues' accompanying that experience.
I suspect they are just as provable (or not) as other baptisms. Perhaps it depends on what sort of proof one is looking for. Or maybe the bigger question may be...why do you need 'proof'?
I suspect they are just as provable (or not) as other baptisms. Perhaps it depends on what sort of proof one is looking for. Or maybe the bigger question may be...why do you need 'proof'?
1 Cor 1:17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
The world considers the baptism of the Holy Spirit which quickens the soul dead in sin giving it new life in Christ. This baptism and presence of the Holy Spirit is not for the world but for those whom have placed their trust in Christ. They along with Christ know who they are and have security in their belief. The Holy Spirit which is in then and not in the world witnesses with their spirit that they are Christ's.
Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
For the cause of Christ
Roger
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
The world considers the baptism of the Holy Spirit which quickens the soul dead in sin giving it new life in Christ. This baptism and presence of the Holy Spirit is not for the world but for those whom have placed their trust in Christ. They along with Christ know who they are and have security in their belief. The Holy Spirit which is in then and not in the world witnesses with their spirit that they are Christ's.
Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
For the cause of Christ
Roger
7
maybe not
can anyone prove they are not simply a bad actor here?
can anyone prove they are not simply conducting a campaign against what they have chosen to disbelieve?
can anyone prove they are genuine and not simply parroting things?
see how that goes?
this forum is not the proof of anything whatsoever, but scripture is
but I must say, hearts are revealed here just the same
can anyone prove they are not simply a bad actor here?
can anyone prove they are not simply conducting a campaign against what they have chosen to disbelieve?
can anyone prove they are genuine and not simply parroting things?
see how that goes?
this forum is not the proof of anything whatsoever, but scripture is
but I must say, hearts are revealed here just the same
I think the OP is a legitimate question... are there tangible proofs that can show that there has been some sort of "baptism in the Spirit".
Personally, I don't think there are, in MOST cases. I believe that we receive the Spirit upon our belief in Jesus, and our acceptance of him as our Savior, and our obedience in baptism (immersion)... where we die to our old self, and are raised up out of the water as a new creation.
I don't look for any "signs" of someone receiving the Spirit... Jesus told us it would happen, and I believe him.
Any gifts of the Spirit will come after that event, at the Spirit's discretion.
The fruits of the indwelling Spirit will become more and more evident as the believer matures in their walk in the light.
I think the OP would be just as valid in asking if there are any tangible evidences of "being saved". It's something that was promised to us, but it's not promised to come with any outward "sign". How could someone "prove" that they were saved?
Personally, I don't think there are, in MOST cases. I believe that we receive the Spirit upon our belief in Jesus, and our acceptance of him as our Savior, and our obedience in baptism (immersion)... where we die to our old self, and are raised up out of the water as a new creation.
I don't look for any "signs" of someone receiving the Spirit... Jesus told us it would happen, and I believe him.
Any gifts of the Spirit will come after that event, at the Spirit's discretion.
The fruits of the indwelling Spirit will become more and more evident as the believer matures in their walk in the light.
I think the OP would be just as valid in asking if there are any tangible evidences of "being saved". It's something that was promised to us, but it's not promised to come with any outward "sign". How could someone "prove" that they were saved?
7
as you are not a Christian and cannot possibly receive the Holy Spirit...but take opportunity to state the above and have done so numerous times...you are hardly proof of anything other than desiring to know more but at the same time, making it impossible for yourself as, again, you do not have what it takes to know God
secular folk would possibly believe if they had 'proof'...just like the op....but nothing like an agenda to do away with all possibility of finding what they lack
E
They are the same question, since being baptised wth the spirit is part where f being saved they g hand in hand, and are nnot seperated,
i would say there is no way to prove, if you have a religious person who is not saved but does alot of “church works” does their works prove they are saved?
in the same token, if you have a prodigal,son, who has temporarity gone out on his own, and is in the process of being brought to their knnes bu the chadtening of God, does that prove they are not saved.
Only God knows the answer, so no, you can not prove or disprove anything, somthe op is invalid. And just on another phishing expedition.
i would say there is no way to prove, if you have a religious person who is not saved but does alot of “church works” does their works prove they are saved?
in the same token, if you have a prodigal,son, who has temporarity gone out on his own, and is in the process of being brought to their knnes bu the chadtening of God, does that prove they are not saved.
Only God knows the answer, so no, you can not prove or disprove anything, somthe op is invalid. And just on another phishing expedition.
Given Romans 8:16 I do not see any reason to expect to provide proof. I have proof in the form of the witness of the Holy Spirit but that is mine and not for the world.
The witness and testimony of the saved is all the world gets as far as proof.
Salvation is by grace through faith. Jesus walked among us as a man and He was despised and rejected. He was crucified and not received as Messiah. Proof that proof is not the narrow road that leads to Christ Who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life no man comes to the Father but by Him.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The witness and testimony of the saved is all the world gets as far as proof.
Salvation is by grace through faith. Jesus walked among us as a man and He was despised and rejected. He was crucified and not received as Messiah. Proof that proof is not the narrow road that leads to Christ Who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life no man comes to the Father but by Him.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Yes, that is true.
I think that is part of the OP's question. Many people on this forum talk about their "baptism in the Spirit" as being some separate "special" event after they had accepted Jesus and been saved.
"Yes, I was saved for 10 years before I was baptized in the Spirit, and immediately started speaking in tongues!" ...... that kind of thing.
I think that is part of the OP's question. Many people on this forum talk about their "baptism in the Spirit" as being some separate "special" event after they had accepted Jesus and been saved.
"Yes, I was saved for 10 years before I was baptized in the Spirit, and immediately started speaking in tongues!" ...... that kind of thing.
Though one may be inspired by the Holy Spirit to engage in glossolalia, one does not need the Holy Spirit to do so - it is a completely self-created phenomenon and is practiced in many non-Christian traditions.
I tend to agree with "hornetguy's" post when I stated that perhaps the bigger question is why do you need proof? I don't really think there is any.
What I stated about stuttering is fact - given the nature of glossolalia, that a person who stutters can engage in it and not stutter is the expected result.
7
it is the nature of God that you fail to grasp
so your mind imagines all kinds of things
however, God makes it plain that really, there is no excuse for not believing
however, when people do not believe, they are capable of explaining away what they do not understand
as you are not a Christian, you really have no part in this conversation and I suppose some will be offended I say that but there it is
No offence taken – I would argue the same point though; the fact that Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians redefined particular sections of scripture for themselves to fit their modern phenomenon of tongues has become so ingrained in those that practice them, that it is virtually impossible for them to see tongues as anything but what they perceive them to be.
How do you account for the many other cultures and spiritual paths that practice the exact same thing? Are their ‘tongues’ somehow “demonic” or any less divine than yours? Granted they don’t refer to what they are doing as “tongues”, but that’s just a matter of nomenclature – what Christians call ‘tongues’, New Agers may call ‘light language’, a Shaman may refer to it as ‘spirit’ or ‘totemic’ language, but it’s all the same thing.
Glossolalia is what it is – there’s just nothing a speaker is producing that cannot be explained in natural terms. Conversely, when dealing with something spoken, there are absolutely no Biblical references to “tongues” that do not refer to, and cannot be explained in light of, real rational language(s).
To the OP’s original question though – I don’t think there is a way to prove a H/S baptism any more than one can prove that one is‘saved’ – there’s no real outward manifestation of either. It’s a matter of one’s faith.
I don’t believe “tongues” proves anything with respect to somehow evidencing H/S baptism; without even taking the nature of ‘tongues’ into consideration, there are too many other passages in the Bible where people are said to be filled with the H/S, yet there is absolutely zero mention of tongues in conjunction with the experience.
How do you account for the many other cultures and spiritual paths that practice the exact same thing? Are their ‘tongues’ somehow “demonic” or any less divine than yours? Granted they don’t refer to what they are doing as “tongues”, but that’s just a matter of nomenclature – what Christians call ‘tongues’, New Agers may call ‘light language’, a Shaman may refer to it as ‘spirit’ or ‘totemic’ language, but it’s all the same thing.
Glossolalia is what it is – there’s just nothing a speaker is producing that cannot be explained in natural terms. Conversely, when dealing with something spoken, there are absolutely no Biblical references to “tongues” that do not refer to, and cannot be explained in light of, real rational language(s).
To the OP’s original question though – I don’t think there is a way to prove a H/S baptism any more than one can prove that one is‘saved’ – there’s no real outward manifestation of either. It’s a matter of one’s faith.
I don’t believe “tongues” proves anything with respect to somehow evidencing H/S baptism; without even taking the nature of ‘tongues’ into consideration, there are too many other passages in the Bible where people are said to be filled with the H/S, yet there is absolutely zero mention of tongues in conjunction with the experience.