Healing through the Son

[BenFTW]

You brought up the idea of "has" to answer not I. Seems a little antagonistic, or maybe just unwilling because unable, I'd guess. It's OK, I understand that actual answers to questions isn't something you do. Maybe you could put up a Joseph Prince video or someone else like that.

Yes, lets belittle. Come on Didymous, not nice.

As I understand Lancelot, he believes healing is part of the Gospel because the apostle Paul was preaching and someone out of the blue had faith for healing.

Acts 14:6-10 King James Version (KJV)

6 They were ware of it, and fled unto Lystra and Derbe, cities of Lycaonia, and unto the region that lieth round about:
7 And there they preached the gospel.
8 And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.

How in the world does someone hear the Gospel and then, having been a cripple from their mother's womb (never walked), believe that they can be healed and walk? What part of the Gospel was the Apostle Paul sharing on that caused this man, impotent in his feet, to all of a sudden believe he could walk, right then and there?

If healing is not part of the Gospel, if it isn't a fringe benefit, how in the world does the thought cross a person's mind that they can be healed? What inspired that faith within them? It says the apostle Paul perceived he had the faith to be healed, after hearing the Apostle Paul speak.

There is a correlation being made, between what Paul preached, and how the man responded in faith, for healing.

 

[Monnkai]

I'm having heart surgery soon. If God healed everyone I wouldn't need it. But since I do I suppose you think I should have more faith. God's Grace is sufficient enough I don't need my body healed thank you!

 

[BenFTW]

I'm having heart surgery soon. If God healed everyone I wouldn't need it. But since I do I suppose you think I should have more faith. God's Grace is sufficient enough I don't need my body healed thank you!

Not to be too blunt, but cardiovascular disease is a result of dietary consumption and lifestyle choices. It isn't about you needing more faith, but taking practical steps towards a healthier life style. Instead of doing heart surgery, you might want to look into less invasive methods such as dietary changes. Look up Dr Caldwell Esselstyn or Dr Dean Ornish.

I don't know the specifics of your situation, but research it.

 

[wolfwint]

Amen. Questions asked and answered already

Thank you, I know your view Now, but you die not answer my questions. Maby you dont want it ore maby you cant do it.
For me I See the Resümee, that People here which proclaiming a false Gospel, which pleases People, but deceives them, because it is not true.
It is your responsibillitie. It is always good to focus people and our view to our Lord Jesus who is the beginner and finnisher of our faith. But not with wrong promisses. This will destructing and disappointing.

 

[wolfwint]

Not to be too blunt, but cardiovascular disease is a result of dietary consumption and lifestyle choices. It isn't about you needing more faith, but taking practical steps towards a healthier life style. Instead of doing heart surgery, you might want to look into less invasive methods such as dietary changes. Look up Dr Caldwell Esselstyn or Dr Dean Ornish.

I don't know the specifics of your situation, but research it.

That seems, according you, we should expect Gods help then when we got sick, although we have an healthy Lifestyle. Today many diseases Special in our Western modern Countrys are the consequences of an unhealthy Lifestyle. You are right. But not all deseases we can avoid through a healthy lifestyle. If somebody has to get an heart suergery with an age of 28, I would not suggest the reason in the lifestyle. ( only maby when he is grown up in an mcdonald restaurant)

 

[BenFTW]

Yes, lets belittle. Come on Didymous, not nice.

As I understand Lancelot, he believes healing is part of the Gospel because the apostle Paul was preaching and someone out of the blue had faith for healing.

Acts 14:6-10 King James Version (KJV)

6 They were ware of it, and fled unto Lystra and Derbe, cities of Lycaonia, and unto the region that lieth round about:
7 And there they preached the gospel.
8 And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.

How in the world does someone hear the Gospel and then, having been a cripple from their mother's womb (never walked), believe that they can be healed and walk? What part of the Gospel was the Apostle Paul sharing on that caused this man, impotent in his feet, to all of a sudden believe he could walk, right then and there?

If healing is not part of the Gospel, if it isn't a fringe benefit, how in the world does the thought cross a person's mind that they can be healed? What inspired that faith within them? It says the apostle Paul perceived he had the faith to be healed, after hearing the Apostle Paul speak.

There is a correlation being made, between what Paul preached, and how the man responded in faith, for healing.

This is a very good point Lancelot, good find. Thanks for sharing, excellent verses.

 

[PennEd]

(Multi-quote-what-in-the-world is over. lol)

I would love to know what that risk is. In most cases, those who follow WoFers are out to get the miracle. It's something like Amway in their minds. If you have X amount of people under you who believe the same thing, you're entitled to one free miracle.

And yet, the miracle isn't theirs yet. In JoanieMarie/LadyLynn's case, she's been pumping out the sales pitch for years. And yet, nada! Nothing. Nothing beyond the high of the rah-rah talk. But just like any high, the more and more you try the less and less the high. Always after that first high, and never getting it.

And, it has defeated her. She can no longer talk for herself. She can't talk to anyone. All she can do is bring up the same tried-and-didn't-work sermons she already posted, forever posting it as "clarification" for people who truly do get it's nothing beyond the babblings of someone stoned. It's senseless. Or she spends her time explain how there are two kinds of Christians -- the good ones (like her and those who agree with her) and the bad ones. (Everybody else.)

Peace has eluded her for years. Love has eluded her. God has eluded her, or, at least the real God is something she cannot imagine in her head, so she makes one she can. Worse yet, all this and life is worse for her, not better.

What is risked?

To me it's like my Dad. I watched his world shrink for years. First he stopped going to Canada to go fishing. (Ten hour drive, so his world didn't shrink all that much yet.) Then he couldn't play Bridge with others. Then he lost swimming at the Y, making dinners for Aid to Friends, and worse for him, no more going to mass.

His world shrunk even more. His bed became an evil place, because he'd wake up not knowing where he was. The TV and computer stopped being distractions, because he couldn't remember how to use them. The kitchen -- the place he loved to cook -- became foreign to him. His house became foreign to him.

And yet, that's where he had to live in his mind. But, he couldn't clear the leaves out of the gutter, couldn't clean the hot tub, couldn't mow the lawn, and couldn't paint the house anymore. And those leaves that rotted in his gutters caused black mold in the garage that held his car and boat he could no longer use.

Dad was determined to live in that house. Even when the tree fell during Storm Sandy and he had no idea my brother's old bedroom included a tree trunk, he would live in that house. (Sister solved the tree/roof issue.) That house became a biological hazard and yet Dad was determined he would die there.

He has Alzheimer, so that's why he clung to the only thing left for him to cling to. But Joan? Stones? Ben? (Okay, again. Ben is young, so he still holds out hope for health and prosperity.) The house of cards has fallen. They know this. They know they cannot answer our questions because they don't know. BUT what is the risk?

They lose a place they can call home? I don't get that with Stones, because she knows about walking out of bad places already. I don't get it for them because, frankly? It was never home!

It was a house of cards blown over by a wind.

Meanwhile, there is God! A house set on a strong foundation that will never be blown over.

What is that risk?

The risk is a complete reevaluation of a core belief. In this case an erroneous belief that Jesus' death means that it is ALWAYS God's Will to physically heal people, IF the person, OR the person praying for the sick, has enough faith. If they pray for someone, and that person is not healed, what are they going to do? Blame God? Blame themselves? Blame the afflicted? They KNOW we all believe God heals, but in a desperate attempt to excuse their doctrine, they claim we say He doesn't, because we believe it must be in accordance to God's Will and purposes.

Just an utterly pernicious doctrine. It is difficult to admit when you might be wrong, but some people tend to get more and more tenacious and angry, as they attempt to cling to a falsehood, rather than admit they might be wrong. As with many sins, at it's core, is PRIDE.

I can unreservedly say that I have no problem being wrong, especially on this issue. But the more this becomes THE issue, almost to the exclusion of the Gospel unto salvation of the soul, to some people, the more apparent the falsehood becomes.

I like what Stunned said awhile back, "Whatever a person is filled with, will spill out, when they are bumped". And we are seeing some bad stuff being spilled out.

 

[BenFTW]

The risk is a complete reevaluation of a core belief. In this case an erroneous belief that Jesus' death means that it is ALWAYS God's Will to physically heal people, IF the person, OR the person praying for the sick, has enough faith. If they pray for someone, and that person is not healed, what are they going to do? Blame God? Blame themselves? Blame the afflicted? They KNOW we all believe God heals, but in a desperate attempt to excuse their doctrine, they claim we say He doesn't, because we believe it must be in accordance to God's Will and purposes.

Just an utterly pernicious doctrine. It is difficult to admit when you might be wrong, but some people tend to get more and more tenacious and angry, as they attempt to cling to a falsehood, rather than admit they might be wrong. As with many sins, at it's core, is PRIDE.

I can unreservedly say that I have no problem being wrong, especially on this issue. But the more this becomes THE issue, almost to the exclusion of the Gospel unto salvation of the soul, to some people, the more apparent the falsehood becomes.

I like what Stunned said awhile back, "Whatever a person is filled with, will spill out, when they are bumped". And we are seeing some bad stuff being spilled out.

You see, you're saying that a person can seek God for healing and the Lord will deny them. This, however, isn't found in scripture. On the contrary, those that sought Jesus received healing. You're preaching contrary to God's word, from a perspective that is void in scripture. You share your experiences in life, and those of the people that have lived throughout history and around us, as if they offer a proper perspective on the truth. No... I'm sorry to say, it shows their experience in life in accordance with their beliefs.

That may be too forward a statement, but we must understand that to put personal experience over God's word is to halt its impact in our lives. This is the truth. What I hear from so many is, almost, an anti-faith mindset. We come up with doctrines to eliminate personal responsibility. We comfort ourselves in the guise of humility. "Your will be done Lord." No... His will is revealed, believe!

This message may offend some, and let me tell you, the Lord has spoke the same to me. "Believe." Believe because He is good. Believe because your sickness is not of God, but will be used for His glory if even just for your sake. Believe because Jesus Christ of Nazareth is alive and is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Believe because the promises of God in Christ Jesus are "Yes" and "Amen." Believe, believe, and believe some more. See the Father's heart, and the glory of the Son when healing happens in the name of Jesus.

Sickness destroys, but God gives life.

 

[PennEd]

The risk is a complete reevaluation of a core belief. In this case an erroneous belief that Jesus' death means that it is ALWAYS God's Will to physically heal people, IF the person, OR the person praying for the sick, has enough faith. If they pray for someone, and that person is not healed, what are they going to do? Blame God? Blame themselves? Blame the afflicted? They KNOW we all believe God heals, but in a desperate attempt to excuse their doctrine, they claim we say He doesn't, because we believe it must be in accordance to God's Will and purposes.

Just an utterly pernicious doctrine. It is difficult to admit when you might be wrong, but some people tend to get more and more tenacious and angry, as they attempt to cling to a falsehood, rather than admit they might be wrong. As with many sins, at it's core, is PRIDE.

I can unreservedly say that I have no problem being wrong, especially on this issue. But the more this becomes THE issue, almost to the exclusion of the Gospel unto salvation of the soul, to some people, the more apparent the falsehood becomes.

I like what Stunned said awhile back, "Whatever a person is filled with, will spill out, when they are bumped". And we are seeing some bad stuff being spilled out.

Reposted for clarification, and to point out that in order to make the doctrine of Physical Earthly atonement palatable to people, Paul's "thorn in the Flesh", ailments not cured but treated in NT, and ESPECIALLY the whole Book of Job MUST BE butchered and reinterpreted from DIRECTLY what the Scripture says. it's a game folks.

Unfortunately this game has real consequences in the disillusionment of God, and the shame that the unhealed doesn't have faith.

 

[BenFTW]

Reposted for clarification, and to point out that in order to make the doctrine of Physical Earthly atonement palatable to people, Paul's "thorn in the Flesh", ailments not cured but treated in NT, and ESPECIALLY the whole Book of Job MUST BE butchered and reinterpreted from DIRECTLY what the Scripture says. it's a game folks.

Unfortunately this game has real consequences in the disillusionment of God, and the shame that the unhealed doesn't have faith.

Paul's thorn in the flesh specifically says that it is a "messenger of satan" in the text. Ailments being treated instead of miraculously cured still points to God, because who created the world inwhich we reside and provided the means of using the materials available to us in order to recover? God has provided on both fronts.

The unhealed are not faultless according to scripture, yet also neither are the ministers. They are not faultless because of their beliefs (not that they don't have faith, for what faith can be had in ignorance?). The truth will set you free. Deception hinders us when we embrace its illusions.

PennEd, you don't make a case from scripture, but emotionalism. Such emotions we ought to be thoughtful of, yes, but not to the degree that we would dismiss or make up doctrines so as to not offend. The real consequence here is allowing experience to dictate what is true in God's word, nullifying faith.

 

[PennEd]

Paul's thorn in the flesh specifically says that it is a "messenger of satan" in the text. Ailments being treated instead of miraculously cured still points to God, because who created the world inwhich we reside and provided the means of using the materials available to us in order to recover? God has provided on both fronts.

The unhealed are not faultless according to scripture, yet also neither are the ministers. They are not faultless because of their beliefs (not that they don't have faith, for what faith can be had in ignorance?). The truth will set you free. Deception hinders us when we embrace its illusions.

PennEd, you don't make a case from scripture, but emotionalism. Such emotions we ought to be thoughtful of, yes, but not to the degree that we would dismiss or make up doctrines so as to not offend. The real consequence here is allowing experience to dictate what is true in God's word, nullifying faith.

Ben you cannot be serious! Your whole doctrine is based on emotion! We HAVE time and time again made our case from Scripture. It's like you take the truth and twist it to the exact opposite. The word for that is hypocrisy.

What does it matter if Paul's affliction is from satan or not? God's answer to his repeated prayer was NO! How silly to say that because the procuring factor of an illness or malady is satan that nullifies God's healing work.

And, as Lynn says, your dripping condescension in calling me just a poor ignorant sap, then saying "no offense" is about as aggressive. and nasty as one can be.

 

[wolfwint]

You see, you're saying that a person can seek God for healing and the Lord will deny them. This, however, isn't found in scripture. On the contrary, those that sought Jesus received healing. You're preaching contrary to God's word, from a perspective that is void in scripture. You share your experiences in life, and those of the people that have lived throughout history and around us, as if they offer a proper perspective on the truth. No... I'm sorry to say, it shows their experience in life in accordance with their beliefs.

That may be too forward a statement, but we must understand that to put personal experience over God's word is to halt its impact in our lives. This is the truth. What I hear from so many is, almost, an anti-faith mindset. We come up with doctrines to eliminate personal responsibility. We comfort ourselves in the guise of humility. "Your will be done Lord." No... His will is revealed, believe!

This message may offend some, and let me tell you, the Lord has spoke the same to me. "Believe." Believe because He is good. Believe because your sickness is not of God, but will be used for His glory if even just for your sake. Believe because Jesus Christ of Nazareth is alive and is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Believe because the promises of God in Christ Jesus are "Yes" and "Amen." Believe, believe, and believe some more. See the Father's heart, and the glory of the Son when healing happens in the name of Jesus.

Sickness destroys, but God gives life.

Ben, to whom is the Gospel? With Gospel I understand the Good News that Jesus Saves. I suppose it is for People which dont know that Jesus Saves. Show me we're the Gospel was Shared to people which already was Saved before. Nowhere we find scripture that the Gospel was Shared to already Saved People. Nowhere in the NT letters to the churches we find that they got again the gospel. But you use the Gospel as scripture proof for People which are already Saved!
People who are already Saved Need not the Gospel, but a Sound teaching. They Need no Milk anymore, but bread for to Grow.
You are saying not: you gave your life for me, what can I do for you? You say: you gave your life for me, Now give me also that, what you have prepared for me in heaven.
Why we cant find your teaching in the NT letters for the Church? Why this teaching arose in the last Century Manly among charismatics?
Because this is a man Made Doctrine, which finally deceives believers.

 

[UnderGrace]

Not to be blunt... but there are many cardiac conditions that are inherited, genetic or part of a syndrome like Down Syndrome for example.

A healthy lifestyle is not always going to keep a person healthy.

Not to be too blunt, but cardiovascular disease is a result of dietary consumption and lifestyle choices. It isn't about you needing more faith, but taking practical steps towards a healthier life style. Instead of doing heart surgery, you might want to look into less invasive methods such as dietary changes. Look up Dr Caldwell Esselstyn or Dr Dean Ornish.

I don't know the specifics of your situation, but research it.

 

[Depleted]

Re posted for clarification. My ignore button will be used for the 2nd time since beginning on cc in 2012-13.

Translation: "Woe is me. I am so besieged by such evil creatures. I do not answer because it goes against this house of cards I've created to answer, but she is evil because she dares wants it explained biblically. Through God, instead of through my desire. (Why isn't sticking a wooden cross and garlic in front of her working?) I am in grave tribulation. So grave, I must protect my beliefs by using the ignore button! What evil lurks next? Running out of creamer for my coffee? The Great Tribulation is upon me. Woe is me!"

(Passive aggressive tactic yet again. She is the poor victim, and why? Because house of cards are tricky things to live under.)

 

[Depleted]

Dan M. is only one of many preachers I listen to about healing. Too funny how you and others here know that someone is "acting" or know the hidden motives of all who believe differently than you do. amazing. Shows me your screen for the truth is your own limited reasoning. Since you've judged me this way I'm not really shocked.

I don't agree with everything he says but I do agree with some of the things he says. God doesn't use perfect people, He uses willing people.

Too funny that body language is 80% of communications, and yet you don't think people can tell by body language what is going on. Funnier still, you can always simply by words! And simply based on "agree with me" or "disagree with me." You have ALWAYS judged on much less! You know exactly what everyone is thinking and feeling the second time they write something to you, but we, oh daft dimbos that we are, cannot do the same thing?

That is called God-Complex.

 

[joaniemarie]

You brought up the idea of "has" to answer not I. Seems a little antagonistic, or maybe just unwilling because unable, I'd guess. It's OK, I understand that actual answers to questions isn't something you do. Maybe you could put up a Joseph Prince video or someone else like that.

Not antagonistic at all. Just observant. I don't come on cc because I have to. I come here because I want to. Freely engaging in discussion is a wonderful thing. But to freely engage in getting personally attacked is not a wonderful thing. And actually very foolish.

Your questions have been asked AND answered but you have not read them. So a "re post" is needed.

And to those who can't discuss without condemning., to those who actually believe they are mind readers.., I've decided to put them on ignore. And yes., I'm totally free to post a devotional by JP or anyone else I like for that matter who are preaching the truth. Read my posts or don't. It's your choice.

 

[joaniemarie]

Not to be blunt... but there are many cardiac conditions that are inherited, genetic or part of a syndrome like Down Syndrome for example.

A healthy lifestyle is not always going to keep a person healthy.

That's true and that is why I believe in healing in the atonement because we need it and He meets us where we are and helps us in our needs. We are born into a sinful world and need to be healed of many things to numerous to mention as we go.

 

[Depleted]

I can't speak for others here but I can for myself. When someone doesn't believe healing is for today., and is day in and day out here diametrically apposed to anything and everything I try to share about it in the Bible.... when they lash out in anger and misrepresent hundreds of attempts to try to reason together and share with them., then there is nothing short of the work of the Holy Spirit that can break through. And PennEd., that is not my job. My job is to pray for them.

Passive aggressive yet again.

Start with defense. "I can't speak for others here but I can for myself."

Then tell a lie. "When someone doesn't believe healing is for today., and is day in and day out here diametrically apposed to anything and everything I try to share about it in the Bible.... when they lash out in anger and misrepresent hundreds of attempts to try to reason together and share with them."
1. Absolutely no one on this thread or any of your threads has said they do not believe in healing for today.
2. Absolutely no one on this thread or any of your threads has been opposed to anything you share from the Bible. (Granted you don't share anything from the Bible often, except as a defense for yourself, and yet no one has opposed the scriptures even when you do that on a rare occasion.)
3. Absolutely no one on this thread or any of your threads, EXCEPT for you, has opposed reasoning together! (You don't reason. You "repost for clarification.")

Then pretend it's someone else's fault. "then there is nothing short of the work of the Holy Spirit that can break through."

And elude to the one you're really angry with but don't want to sound angry and certainly never be direct, because being direct may show your cards. You might even end up being (oh heaven forbid) aggressive! "And PennEd.,"

And finally, play the victim and martyr, who doesn't really have to do much. "that is not my job. My job is to pray for them."

Standard passive-aggressive garbage.

In truth, I charge you with being like Hymenaeus and Philetus. Forever giving irreverent babble, instead of the gospel. You do not rightly divide the word. You find people who make it say what you want it to say. And you love the quarrels, because if you didn't, once you know your copy-paste is making matters worse, not better, you post more and more of them, knowing it leads to quarreling. And for what? God's benefit? Obviously not. Other's benefit? Seriously not, since your heretical gospel harms, not helps. So for whose benefit? The martyr's! YOURS!

2 Tim. 2:[FONT=&quot]14 Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]18 who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.[/FONT]

 

[Depleted]

That is known as a false dilemma. Both options are unattractive and don't represent all options (specifically reasons for not being healed).

There are cases where the minister's belief is the reason another is not healed, and that is where they need to fast and pray, spend time with the Lord and address what is hindering them. Then there is the case of timing, maybe the Lord is orchestrating events so that not only will this sickness glorify Himself (through healing) but also encourage others to persevere or have faith to be healed. God didn't send this sickness, but what was made for evil God turned to good.

If we don't have the faith to pray for a person with a headache, how can we pray to raise the dead? Both are easy for the Lord, there is no level of difficulty here. The hindrance comes in my perception of things relative to how difficult I believe the case to be. My belief is the limitation, not God.

There is no lie in regards to healing and God's will. The only lie is the one that robs you of His healing.

Ed asks why no one answered his question. I've asked the same thing. Many have asked the same thing.

So what do you do? Pretend your answering a question by answering a different question. A question you like. Nothing to do with what anyone actually asked.

Everyone here can give multiple reasons why people are not healed. How about answering the real questions, instead of what we all know?

 

[joaniemarie]

Wolfwin., You ask why the church hasn't seen things until recently - like tongues until the 1905 outpouring or why healing wasn't preached..etc. I also think you are mis-informed about the true history in these subjects because many have experienced the truth of the Gospel who have not written books about it.


But about your question., one could ask a similar question to why salvation/justification by faith alone in Christ wasn't preached in the church at the time when Luther said "The just shall live by faith". There was 1,300 years of church beliefs that he went against with his statement. The catholic church used the same "logic" against what Luther was saying as cessationists say about the gifts of the Spirit for today.

So we mere humans don't know it all and need to go to the Bible daily and not depend on what people have said or are saying. We need the Holy Spirit to show us the truth not people who are trapped in old religious teaching without the benefit of the Holy Spirit revealing the Scriptures.