GOD'S DISCIPLINE ISN'T PUNISHEMENT FOR PAST SINS...

[JGIG]

See this one? This is both the worst and the best scripture about falling away from grace.

Galatians 5
​

1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

The blue indicates that the "fallen ones" here were christians.
The red indicates what every NT scripture that speaks of the "falling away" are falling away from: GRACE.

And how do they fall away from grace?

By sinning?

No.

By seeking to be justified by law.

While it's true that most of these scriptures could be talking about a backsliding,

Galatians 5 does not speak about backsliding - it's clearly about whether Christians should be operating under the Law or under Grace. The chapter is crystal clear on that point.

the one of 2Thess 2 is an event happening right now in the end of the Church Age.

This one shows many in the church in the last days will fall away from grace permanently into a delusion created by God Himself so those who rebel from God will face the judgments during & after the Tribulation period.

11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Now for some context.

Who is the 'them'?

They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. (from 2 Thes.)​

The 'theys' are not people who have 'fallen from grace' because of sin, but those who have never believed in Christ in the first place.


-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Interesting point. I agree falling from grace is going back under the Law, but as far as the great delusion Scripture teaches that the elect can’t be deceived.

It basically says, “If it were possible... even the elect would be deceived.”

Correct - that passage in 2 Thes. 2 states that those who never believed the truth are under delusion, not believers.

-JGIG

 

[joaniemarie]

Please provide contextual Scripture that tells us that sin disqualifies one from grace.

In your theology, is grace only for the unsaved, but once one is saved, no more grace?!

Is the Gospel the Good News only until one receives it, and then it's Bad News (no more grace!)?

​

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (from Rom. 5)​

-JGIG

AMEN JGIG!!!!! THIS IS MY DAILY LIFE NOW BECAUSE OF JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PRAISE THE LORD I'VE ENTERED INTO JUST

BEGINNING TO LEARN WHAT JESUS DID WHEN HE BROUGHT IN THE GOSPEL OF GRACE ANd TRUTH!!

 

[JGIG]

This idea that grace is only for us when we're behaving well is contrary to Scripture.

While we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us. The concept that He would just toss us to the side if we sin after we're saved (either occasionally or struggle with sin) makes no sense.

The Gospel is not the ultimate bait and switch routine. That would not be Good News!

God keeps those who He saves:

4 I always thank my God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. 5 For in him you have been enriched in every way—with all kinds of speech and with all knowledge— 6 God thus confirming our testimony about Christ among you. 7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. 8He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. (from 1 Cor. 1)​

There are no conditions in the context of that chapter of 'unless you sin'. Paul is really consistent about building up believers in who they are in Christ and Who holds them to encourage them to go out and live as who they now are in Christ.


Grace is as available to the believer who sins as it is to the unbeliever in their sins:

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. (from Heb. 4)​

Grace is for the believer, too, brothers and sisters! Don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise!

God does not set up a bunch of preconditions for you to approach His Throne of Grace, He just says, "Come. Approach with confidence. Let Me remind you that you are forgiven (mercy) and let me help you."


-JGIG

 

[joaniemarie]

This idea that grace is only for us when we're behaving well is contrary to Scripture.

While we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us. The concept that He would just toss us to the side if we sin after we're saved (either occasionally or struggle with sin) makes no sense.

The Gospel is not the ultimate bait and switch routine. That would not be Good News!

God keeps those who He saves:

4 I always thank my God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. 5 For in him you have been enriched in every way—with all kinds of speech and with all knowledge— 6 God thus confirming our testimony about Christ among you. 7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. 8He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. (from 1 Cor. 1)​

There are no conditions in the context of that chapter of 'unless you sin'. Paul is really consistent about building up believers in who they are in Christ and Who holds them to encourage them to go out and live as who they now are in Christ.


Grace is as available to the believer who sins as it is to the unbeliever in their sins:

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. (from Heb. 4)​

Grace is for the believer, too, brothers and sisters! Don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise!

God does not set up a bunch of preconditions for you to approach His Throne of Grace, He just says, "Come. Approach with confidence. Let Me remind you that you are forgiven (mercy) and let me help you."


-JGIG

Amen. Why? Because it's ALWAYS because of JESUS. The Bible and the Holy Spirit ALWAYS points us to Jesus. Examine JESUS and you will find out who you are. Don't look at your old self made in the image of sinful flesh. NO., look at Jesus who raised you up and made you a NEW CREATION IN CHRIST.

Old things have passed away BEHOLD....TAKE A LOOK....JESUS HAS MADE US INTO NEW BEINGS by giving us a new spirit. Our old man died on the cross with Jesus. Our new man lives forever with Jesus. This is due to JESUS WORK not ours.


Gal.2:20 [SUP]0 [/SUP]I have been crucified with Christ [in Him I have shared His crucifixion]; it is no longer I who live, but Christ (the Messiah) lives in me; and the life I now live in the body I live by faith in (by adherence to and reliance on and complete trust in) the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

 

[JGIG]

AMEN JGIG!!!!! THIS IS MY DAILY LIFE NOW BECAUSE OF JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PRAISE THE LORD I'VE ENTERED INTO JUST

BEGINNING TO LEARN WHAT JESUS DID WHEN HE BROUGHT IN THE GOSPEL OF GRACE ANd TRUTH!!

Amen, Sister! This image came to mind when I read what you wrote .

 

[joaniemarie]

Exactly JGIG., How can anyone ever hope to see GOD....life..... or themselves differently unless they FIRST SEE JESUS!!!???? It is impossible.

 

[PennEd]

not really following this .
So it’s not the acts of let’s say a serial adulator that causes a let’s say saved man to fall from grace ,but when he realizes his error he adds to the law ?
Blessings
Bill

Hey Bill. This is a fair question. So in my mind, there are at least 2 branches to this "hyper-grace" issue.

The 1st, is the prosperity, health and wealth aspect that I am NOT on board with. The second i pretty much agree with what JGIG is describing. And with that, i am fully on board with.

The idea of mustering and fighting for sin deprivation is a completely reasonable, and for me, decades long belief. I utterly and completely failed. In fact, the HARDER I tried, AND prayed to stop sinful behavior, the WORSE it got!

I fell so far and so hard I was SURE there was no way back for me. MIRACULOUSLY, the Lord drew me back! It was COMPLETELY Him. I could hear, and see Him say to me ALL my sins were forgiven. Then, I STOPPED the struggle of sin deprivation, and an AMAZING thing happened. I started sinning WAAAAY LESS!!

Something I simply could not do before, realizing that ALL my sin was COMPLETELY paid for freed me to forget the sin and focus on Christ and OTHER people.

During that horrible time, the more I pleaded with the Lord that I would DO more. More sin deprivation, more repaying for sins I did, more you name it, THE MORE THE HORRIBLE CONVICTION RAVAGED ME!

So, it's completely counter-intuitive to human thought, that trying to sin less will result in MORE sin, and understanding that Grace, and NOT a striving to do better to keep the Law is what "falling from Grace" is all about.

 

[JGIG]

Amen. Why? Because it's ALWAYS because of JESUS. The Bible and the Holy Spirit ALWAYS points us to Jesus. Examine JESUS and you will find out who you are. Don't look at your old self made in the image of sinful flesh. NO., look at Jesus who raised you up and made you a NEW CREATION IN CHRIST.

Old things have passed away BEHOLD....TAKE A LOOK....JESUS HAS MADE US INTO NEW BEINGS by giving us a new spirit. Our old man died on the cross with Jesus. Our new man lives forever with Jesus. This is due to JESUS WORK not ours.


Gal.2:20

Yes!

And because all that is true, we can reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God, and present ourselves to God as instruments of righteousness \o/! Paul reasons through this concept through Romans 6:

1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin — 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness.20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 6)​

-JGIG

 

[joaniemarie]

I often wonder how Christians can stay believing that it's by our old flesh that we are going to force change of the spiritual kind?

This sort of living the Christian life is doing it by the power of an old dead thing whose memory can lead a person into death. Only Jesus leads into life and He DOESN'T do it by our old man. He does it by revealing Himself in and through us by the power of the Holy Spirit working with OUR SPIRIT.... THAT WE ARE THE SONS OF GOD....NOT OUR OLD MAN. That guy is DEAD DEAD AND DEAD.

 

[joaniemarie]

Hey Bill. This is a fair question. So in my mind, there are at least 2 branches to this "hyper-grace" issue.

The 1st, is the prosperity, health and wealth aspect that I am NOT on board with. The second i pretty much agree with what JGIG is describing. And with that, i am fully on board with.

The idea of mustering and fighting for sin deprivation is a completely reasonable, and for me, decades long belief. I utterly and completely failed. In fact, the HARDER I tried, AND prayed to stop sinful behavior, the WORSE it got!

I fell so far and so hard I was SURE there was no way back for me. MIRACULOUSLY, the Lord drew me back! It was COMPLETELY Him. I could hear, and see Him say to me ALL my sins were forgiven. Then, I STOPPED the struggle of sin deprivation, and an AMAZING thing happened. I started sinning WAAAAY LESS!!

Something I simply could not do before, realizing that ALL my sin was COMPLETELY paid for freed me to forget the sin and focus on Christ and OTHER people.

During that horrible time, the more I pleaded with the Lord that I would DO more. More sin deprivation, more repaying for sins I did, more you name it, THE MORE THE HORRIBLE CONVICTION RAVAGED ME!

So, it's completely counter-intuitive to human thought, that trying to sin less will result in MORE sin, and understanding that Grace, and NOT a striving to do better to keep the Law is what "falling from Grace" is all about.

Amen., His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. There is no room for "what if's" Believers DO HEAR and WILL HEAR and WANT TO HEAR.

It is God who works in us both to WILL AND DO DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE. He not only calls us to do a job.. He provides all we need to do it... And then... He rewards us for doing it. WHAT IS THAT!!???? How amazing is it that He makes us co laborers with Him?! He INVESTS us and we in turn INVEST HIM in our lives. It's a RELATIONSHIP.


Phil.2:13 [SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, my dear ones, as you have always obeyed [my suggestions], so now, not only [with the enthusiasm you would show] in my presence but much more because I am absent, work out (cultivate, carry out to the goal, and fully complete) your own salvation with reverence and awe and trembling (self-distrust, [SUP][a][/SUP]with serious caution, tenderness of conscience, watchfulness against temptation, timidly shrinking from whatever might offend God and discredit the name of Christ).

[SUP]We are called to work OUT what HE has already worked IN us. AMEN!!



13 [/SUP][Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while [SUP][b][/SUP]effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and [SUP][c][/SUP]delight.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I often wonder how Christians can stay believing that it's by our old flesh that we are going to force change of the spiritual kind?

This sort of living the Christian life is doing it by the power of an old dead thing whose memory can lead a person into death. Only Jesus leads into life and He DOESN'T do it by our old man. He does it by revealing Himself in and through us by the power of the Holy Spirit working with OUR SPIRIT.... THAT WE ARE THE SONS OF GOD....NOT OUR OLD MAN. That guy is DEAD DEAD AND DEAD.

There is actually great benefit to controlling the physical body and mind so that we don't do things to offend the spirit and hinder its work of inward transformation.

 

[JGIG]

Hey Bill. This is a fair question. So in my mind, there are at least 2 branches to this "hyper-grace" issue.

The 1st, is the prosperity, health and wealth aspect that I am NOT on board with. The second i pretty much agree with what JGIG is describing. And with that, i am fully on board with.

The idea of mustering and fighting for sin deprivation is a completely reasonable, and for me, decades long belief. I utterly and completely failed. In fact, the HARDER I tried, AND prayed to stop sinful behavior, the WORSE it got!

I fell so far and so hard I was SURE there was no way back for me. MIRACULOUSLY, the Lord drew me back! It was COMPLETELY Him. I could hear, and see Him say to me ALL my sins were forgiven. Then, I STOPPED the struggle of sin deprivation, and an AMAZING thing happened. I started sinning WAAAAY LESS!!

Something I simply could not do before, realizing that ALL my sin was COMPLETELY paid for freed me to forget the sin and focus on Christ and OTHER people.

During that horrible time, the more I pleaded with the Lord that I would DO more. More sin deprivation, more repaying for sins I did, more you name it, THE MORE THE HORRIBLE CONVICTION RAVAGED ME!

So, it's completely counter-intuitive to human thought, that trying to sin less will result in MORE sin, and understanding that Grace, and NOT a striving to do better to keep the Law is what "falling from Grace" is all about.

Thank you, PennEd, for putting testimony to Truth .

YES! You're absolutely right - Grace can be so counter-intuitive! When we start focusing more on Jesus, Who He is, and who we are in Him and not on our sins, then Grace starts to make a lot more sense.

Not only that, but we begin to be able to learn from Grace instead of always trying to 'earn' it.

And no one here is not saying to not deal with sin. We're saying stop making sin - did I sin? will I sin? what will lead me into sin? I really should stay away from such and such so I won't be tempted to sin - the focus, and always make Christ the focus. We need to stop thinking about and obsessing over NOT sinning. It's like being trapped on one of those little hamster exercise wheels can be crippling to a believer - it's all they can do, and then their to exhausted do anything else. The believer needs to abandon that way of thinking. We are called to REST in Christ and who we are in Him:

28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

​

29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

​

30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” (from Mt. 11)​

We're told to fix our eyes on JESUS \o/! Not on ourselves!

And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. (from Heb. 12)

6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness. (from Col. 2)​

If our focus is on Christ and not on us, the Fruit will come .


-JGIG

 

[joaniemarie]

There is actually great benefit to controlling the physical body and mind so that we don't do things to offend the spirit and hinder its work of inward transformation.

This is TRUE. But we cannot do that "discipline" by our flesh. DISCIPLINE is a FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT. It's got to be done BY THE SPIRIT-THE NEW MAN CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS who responds to the HolySpirit. The flesh will NOT respond to the Holy Spirit.

The flesh is 100% APPOSED-APPOSING-APPOSES the Spirit and the Spirit is APPOSED-APPOSING-APPOSES to the flesh.... The TWO CANNOT BE ONE. THEY NEVER COME TOGETHER IN THOUGHT AND PURPOSE. Gal.5:16-

[SUP]16 [/SUP]But I say, walk and live [habitually] in the [Holy] Spirit [responsive to and controlled and guided by the Spirit]; then you will certainly not gratify the cravings and desires of the flesh (of human nature without God).
[SUP]
17 [/SUP]For the desires of the flesh are opposed to the [Holy] Spirit, and the [desires of the] Spirit are opposed to the flesh (godless human nature); for these are antagonistic to each other [continually withstanding and in conflict with each other], so that you are not free but are prevented from doing what you desire to do.
[SUP]
18 [/SUP]But if you are guided (led) by the [Holy] Spirit, you are not subject to the Law.

 

[joaniemarie]

Thank you, PennEd, for putting testimony to Truth .

YES! You're absolutely right - Grace can be so counter-intuitive! When we start focusing more on Jesus, Who He is, and who we are in Him and not on our sins, then Grace starts to make a lot more sense.

Not only that, but we begin to be able to learn from Grace instead of always trying to 'earn' it.

And no one here is not saying to not deal with sin. We're saying stop making sin - did I sin? will I sin? what will lead me into sin? I really should stay away from such and such so I won't be tempted to sin - the focus, and always make Christ the focus. We need to stop thinking about and obsessing over NOT sinning. It's like being trapped on one of those little hamster exercise wheels can be crippling to a believer - it's all they can do, and then their to exhausted do anything else. The believer needs to abandon that way of thinking. We are called to REST in Christ and who we are in Him:

28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

​

29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

​

30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” (from Mt. 11)​

We're told to fix our eyes on JESUS \o/! Not on ourselves!

And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. (from Heb. 12)

6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness. (from Col. 2)​

If our focus is on Christ and not on us, the Fruit will come .


-JGIG

AMEN. And this hope NEVER DISAPPOINTS or leaves us hanging. Romans 5: 1-

Therefore, since we are justified ([SUP][a][/SUP]acquitted, declared righteous, and given a right standing with God) through faith, let us [grasp the fact that we] have [the peace of reconciliation to hold and to [SUP][b][/SUP]enjoy] peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
[SUP]
2 [/SUP]Through Him also we have [our] access (entrance, introduction) by faith into this grace (state of God’s favor) in which we [firmly and safely] stand. And let us rejoice and exult in our hope of experiencing and enjoying the glory of God.
[SUP]

3 [/SUP]Moreover [let us also be full of joy now!] let us exult and triumph in our troubles and rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that pressure and affliction and hardship produce patient and unswerving endurance.
[SUP]

4 [/SUP]And endurance (fortitude) develops maturity of [SUP][c][/SUP]character (approved faith and [SUP][d][/SUP]tried integrity). And character [of this sort] produces [the habit of] [SUP][e][/SUP]joyful and confident hope of eternal salvation.
[SUP]

5 [/SUP]Such hope never disappoints or deludes or shames us, for God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit Who has been given to us.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This is TRUE. But we cannot do that "discipline" by our flesh. DISCIPLINE is a FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT. It's got to be done BY THE SPIRIT-THE NEW MAN CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS who responds to the HolySpirit. The flesh will NOT respond to the Holy Spirit.

There's a difference between the flesh as Paul uses the term and the body/mind. There is nothing wrong with the body/mind. When I read in GOD's word that I'm not supposed to do something, and I choose of my own free will (mind) to not do that thing in my own efforts (body), the holy spirit really isn't involved except to witness what I'm doing is pleasing to GOD. I'm simply aligning my will with GOD's will.

 

[JGIG]

This is TRUE. But we cannot do that "discipline" by our flesh. DISCIPLINE is a FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT. It's got to be done BY THE SPIRIT-THE NEW MAN CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS who responds to the HolySpirit. The flesh will NOT respond to the Holy Spirit.

The flesh is 100% APPOSED-APPOSING-APPOSES the Spirit and the Spirit is APPOSED-APPOSING-APPOSES to the flesh.... The TWO CANNOT BE ONE. THEY NEVER COME TOGETHER IN THOUGHT AND PURPOSE. Gal.5:16-

[SUP]16 [/SUP]But I say, walk and live [habitually] in the [Holy] Spirit [responsive to and controlled and guided by the Spirit]; then you will certainly not gratify the cravings and desires of the flesh (of human nature without God).
[SUP]
17 [/SUP]For the desires of the flesh are opposed to the [Holy] Spirit, and the [desires of the] Spirit are opposed to the flesh (godless human nature); for these are antagonistic to each other [continually withstanding and in conflict with each other], so that you are not free but are prevented from doing what you desire to do.
[SUP]
18 [/SUP]But if you are guided (led) by the [Holy] Spirit, you are not subject to the Law.

Yes, though we always have the choice to present our members (flesh) as instruments of righteousness or of sin. The thing is, that if we're focused on Jesus and not on doing or not doing whatever, sin isn't so much on the radar screen! Our desires become what He desires - for us, for us to do, for us to not do, and all in the redemptive context of grace, not in the context of a hammer coming down on us if we mess up!


-JGIG

 

[joaniemarie]

When I focus on myself and my many lacks in life., I'm totally depressed. But when I start looking to Jesus ALL HOPE IS RENEWED AGAIN!!!

Renew is to RESUME where Jesus left off. Take up again....Repeat so as to reaffirm...to regain...REVIVE ....start over.... Looking to JESUS... The Author and Finisher of our faith. Eph.4:22-23

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Strip yourselves of your former nature [put off and discard your old unrenewed self] which characterized your previous manner of life and becomes corrupt through lusts and desires that spring from delusion;
[SUP]
23 [/SUP]And be constantly renewed in the spirit of your mind [having a fresh mental and spiritual attitude],

Col.3:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And have clothed yourselves with the new [spiritual self], which is [ever in the process of being] renewed and remolded into [fuller and more perfect [SUP][a][/SUP]knowledge upon] knowledge after the image (the likeness) of Him Who created it.


2 Cor. 4:16
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Therefore we do not become discouraged (utterly spiritless, exhausted, and wearied out through fear). Though our outer man is [progressively] decaying and wasting away, yet our inner self is being [progressively] renewed day after day.







Is that not what our Christian life is all about? Forgetting those things which are behind and striving forward to those things with are in Jesus.

Philippians 3:10-



[SUP]10 [/SUP][For my determined purpose is] that I may know Him [that I may progressively become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him, perceiving and recognizing and understanding the wonders of His Person more strongly and more clearly],

and that I may in that same way come to know the power outflowing from His resurrection [[SUP][a][/SUP]which it exerts over believers], and that I may so share His sufferings as to be continually transformed [in spirit into His likeness even] to His death, [in the hope]
[SUP]

11 [/SUP]That if possible I may attain to the [[SUP][b][/SUP]spiritual and moral] resurrection [that lifts me] out from among the dead [even while in the body].
[SUP]

12 [/SUP]Not that I have now attained [this ideal], or have already been made perfect, but I press on to lay hold of (grasp) and make my own, that for which Christ Jesus (the Messiah) has laid hold of me and made me His own.
[SUP]

13 [/SUP]I do not consider, brethren, that I have captured and made it my own [yet]; but one thing I do [it is my one aspiration]: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
[SUP]

14 [/SUP]I press on toward the goal to win the [supreme and heavenly] prize to which God in Christ Jesus is calling us upward.
[SUP]

15 [/SUP]So let those [of us] who are spiritually mature and full-grown have this mind and hold these convictions; and if in any respect you have a different attitude of mind, God will make that clear to you also.
[SUP]

16 [/SUP]Only let us hold true to what we have already attained and walk and order our lives by that.

 

[joaniemarie]

There's a difference between the flesh as Paul uses the term and the body/mind. There is nothing wrong with the body/mind. When I read in GOD's word that I'm not supposed to do something, and I choose of my own free will (mind) to not do that thing in my own efforts (body), the holy spirit really isn't involved except to witness what I'm doing is pleasing to GOD. I'm simply aligning my will with GOD's will.

The Holy Spirit will guide me for how my mind is renewed through the Word. I cannot do this on my own. I must CHOOSE to walk in the spirit or the flesh. I must submit to His guidance and leading daily or I fall on my face.

What you say about your free will has to be clarified. In your flesh you have no free will to do God's will and work. You only have a free will in your new born again spirit man. Jesus has given us His Holy Spirit for just this purpose. USE HIM DAILY. I have to ALLOW HIM TO HAVE ACCESS.


The thing that is wrong with the body/mind of our former self HRFTD is that it IS APPOSED to the NEW SPIRIT MAN Jesus made you. You cannot make a Spirit lead choice without a new spirit who can respond. This IS a major problem that must be solved in us each day. We have that choice on a daily basis to walk IN THE FLESH OR IN THE SPIRIT.


We cannot use our old manner of life to make a choice. We are today given a NEW BIRTH and a NEW SPIRIT.


A discision is NOW able to be made by us that we were UNABLE TO DO without Jesus. He gave us the NEW BIRTH. We are today NEW CREATIONS IN CHRIST.

His Spirit is NOW able to witness with our spirit that we ARE NOW the sons of God. That we are NOW able to hear the truth and walk in the truth.

HIS SHEEP HEAR HIS VOICE.

This was not a possibility before. We were dead in tresspasses and sins on our way to hell., without hope. But Jesus came and gave us the GIFT of Eternal life and HIS Right standing before God. His seed remains in us now where as before we had no such seed in us.

 

[joaniemarie]

As I've grown in my understanding of Jesus and who I am in Him., I confess my righteousness IN Christ and the sure foundation of that righteousness..... JESUS

When I sin I realize that in my flesh dwells no good thing and that now I am not condemned because Jesus paid for all my sin and the Bible says there is no condemnation to those who are IN Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1-3

Therefore, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]
2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life [which is] in Christ Jesus [the law of our new being] has freed me from the law of sin and of death.
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]For God has done what the Law could not do, [its power] being weakened by the flesh [[SUP][a][/SUP]the entire nature of man without the Holy Spirit]. Sending His own Son in the guise of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, [God] condemned sin in the flesh [[SUP][b][/SUP]subdued, overcame, [SUP][c][/SUP]deprived it of its power over all who accept that sacrifice],


Now when God sees me (and I see myself) it's in the righeousness of Christ. So although as I walk in this world and go through trials and tribulations while in this body., I am not condemned but instead declared righteous IN Jesus. My battle is not about sinning anymore., it's about seeing what God says I am IN Christ and believing His truth instead of my own.

The NEW BIRTH.

When I see this truth and walk IN it., I learn how not to sin and how to BEHAVE as a true son working from my right standing IN Christ.

The Bible says because His seed remains in me., I cannot sin. This means God doesn't SEE my sin or hold it against me anymore because as far as the east is from the west so far has he taken all my sins. Today I focus by choice to have FAITH IN WHAT JESUS DID.... my right standing in Christ. 1 John 3:9

[SUP]9 [/SUP]No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and [SUP][a][/SUP]habitually] practices sin, for God’s nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.

This doesn't mean we don't sin., the flesh is something we learn to control but NOT through the flesh but through the - spirit. This means our NEW Man is being transformed daily into the image of Jesus.

It means we are growing into what that seed implanted in us IS... becoming mature sons. Heirs and joint heirs in Christ. A young child can't drive his dads car yet but when he grows more mature in time... that is just one of the parts of his inheritance.


1 Peter 1:23 [SUP]23 [/SUP]You have been regenerated (born again), not from a mortal [SUP][a][/SUP]origin ([SUP][b][/SUP]seed, sperm), but from one that is immortal by the ever living and lasting Word of God.