GOD'S DISCIPLINE ISN'T PUNISHEMENT FOR PAST SINS...
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Well., I'm not a gnostic and I believe this;
Eph.4:22-23
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Strip yourselves of your former nature [put off and discard your old unrenewed self] which characterized your previous manner of life and becomes corrupt through lusts and desires that spring from delusion;
[SUP]
23 [/SUP]And be constantly renewed in the spirit of your mind [having a fresh mental and spiritual attitude],
Col.3:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And have clothed yourselves with the new [spiritual self], which is [ever in the process of being] renewed and remolded into [fuller and more perfect [SUP][a][/SUP]knowledge upon] knowledge after the image (the likeness) of Him Who created it.
2 Cor. 4:16
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Therefore we do not become discouraged (utterly spiritless, exhausted, and wearied out through fear). Though our outer man is [progressively] decaying and wasting away, yet our inner self is being [progressively] renewed day after day.
Don't you know and are you aware of the reality that we are NEW Creations IN Christ now?? We are told to not walk in the flesh... but in the Spirit. How do you see the new creation that Jesus has made you? Do you think you can walk in the spirit by walking in the flesh (your old manner of life)???
If you do., please explain how you have been crucified with Christ yet you still live? Gal. 2:20 Please explain what the new seed in you is that cannot sin.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life [which is] in Christ Jesus [the law of our new being] has freed me from the law of sin and of death.
We are FREE from the the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH. Why? Because the LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS has set us free!
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What you say about your free will has to be clarified. In your flesh you have no free will to do God's will and work. You only have a free will in your new born again spirit man. Jesus has given us His Holy Spirit for just this purpose. USE HIM DAILY. I have to ALLOW HIM TO HAVE ACCESS.
And to clarify, I believe that free will is given to both the unredeemed and the redeemed. I also believe that unsaved people are able to choose to do good - there are examples of that all over the place.
That fact goes to prove that behavior does not save or keep someone saved - it is only belief in Christ that saves and His High Priesthood that keeps us saved.
There is far too much judging around her about who is saved or not, if they're still saved, if they've lost their salvation, or will, because of sinning or not confessing for forgiveness when they sin.
Why not just point people to Jesus, His Work, and who we are in Him and let HIM sort it out?
I trust Christ enough to do that, do you?
-JGIG
Being set free from the law of sin and death is a reality but sad to say many Christians are not set free because they don't read it that way or and have never been taught that way. Many Christians walk around for years like I did trying to discipline their flesh by their flesh.
We need to walk by faith and not by sight because these spiritual truthes are spiritually descerned. We cannot grasp or please God without faith. We can't do it in our flesh because our flesh needs to be subdued by our spirit. How can we hope to subdue the flesh with our flesh? What happens then is we walk around in confusion.
Lord... I want to do this but I have no power to do it.
Paul talked about this when he first began learning about the flesh vs the spirit. OH WRETCHED MAN THAT I AM... WHO WILL DEVLIVER ME FROM THE BODY OF THIS DEATH???? I THANK MY GOD HE WILL.. JESUS WILL. AMEN!!!!
We need to walk by faith and not by sight because these spiritual truthes are spiritually descerned. We cannot grasp or please God without faith. We can't do it in our flesh because our flesh needs to be subdued by our spirit. How can we hope to subdue the flesh with our flesh? What happens then is we walk around in confusion.
Lord... I want to do this but I have no power to do it.
Paul talked about this when he first began learning about the flesh vs the spirit. OH WRETCHED MAN THAT I AM... WHO WILL DEVLIVER ME FROM THE BODY OF THIS DEATH???? I THANK MY GOD HE WILL.. JESUS WILL. AMEN!!!!
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The propensity to do good doesn't negate the necessity of Christ. There are people all over the world who do good works, who are not believers. This is not a game of balance, or karma, where one eventually meets an equilibrium (of good and evil). All fall short of God's glory, none of us, God's creation, meet His perfect standard of righteousness. Everyone needs Jesus.
Unsaved people often can and DO outshine Christians who are walking in the flesh in the works department. Discipline as HRFTD is a good thing. But that kind of moral discipline done in and by the flesh CAN and IS done by those living a moral life style because they see the common sense of it.
But that KIND of morality is a law of the flesh and NOT of the spirit. It doesn't come from a changed heart. Many unsaved people are also very disciplined and can do many good works in the world for their humanitarian ways. Morality is a good thing. Even atheists see the wisdom of living morally and being kind to fellow humans and loving the planet and not beating the dog.
We have been set free from the law of sin and death that depends on ITSELF apart from Christ. But IN Christ.... The law of the Spirit is done through the new man created IN Christ Jesus UNTO good works...The Holy Spirit teaching and directing comforting and empowering our new man in Christ..
The fruit of the Holy Spirit comes from born again people walking IN the spirit ....submitting to the Holy Spirit. When we try to be righteous by ourselves it becomes a work of the flesh and counts for nothing but a bending to a law that works.
The law is good and always was good., but the law cannot save or free us OR CHANGE OUR HEARTS. Only Jesus can do that by grace through faith. And now we we walk in the spirit., or NEW nature.
I've never been a very self disciplined person and so when I'm trying to discipline myself by myself I have NO victory. But when I read about Jesus in the Bible and how it is Him that will be working in me both do WILL AND TO DO I see the true principal of how this works.
Gal.5:17 How to tell when you are walking in the Spirit or in the flesh;
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the desires of the flesh are opposed to the [Holy] Spirit, and the [desires of the] Spirit are opposed to the flesh (godless human nature); for these are antagonistic to each other [continually withstanding and in conflict with each other], so that you are not free but are prevented from doing what you desire to do.
[SUP]
18 [/SUP]But if you are guided (led) by the [Holy] Spirit, you are not subject to the Law.
[SUP]
19 [/SUP]Now the doings (practices) of the flesh are clear (obvious): they are immorality, impurity, indecency,
[SUP]
20 [/SUP]Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies),
[SUP]
21 [/SUP]Envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
[SUP]
22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,
[SUP]
23 [/SUP]Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [[SUP][f][/SUP]that can bring a charge].
[SUP]
24 [/SUP]And those who belong to Christ Jesus (the Messiah) have crucified the flesh (the godless human nature) with its passions and appetites and desires.
[SUP]
25 [/SUP]If we live by the [Holy] Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. [If by the Holy Spirit [SUP][g][/SUP]we have our life in God, let us go forward [SUP][h][/SUP]walking in line, our conduct controlled by the Spirit.]
[SUP]
26 [/SUP]Let us not become vainglorious and self-conceited, competitive and challenging and provoking and irritating to one another, envying and being jealous of one another.
If a Christian is not able to control themselves when they are afraid.... when they are angry....when they are lazy...etc..... it means they have yet to mature and need to LEARN HOW TO CONTROL THEIR FLESH by walking IN their spirit submitted and controlled by the by the Holy Spirit.
There SHOULD BE on a daily basis; joy and peace flowing into our lives as Jesus told us in John 7:38-39
[SUP]38 [/SUP]He who believes in Me [who cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Me] as the Scripture has said, From his innermost being shall flow [continuously] springs and rivers of living water.
[SUP]
39 [/SUP]But He was speaking here of the Spirit, Whom those who believed (trusted, had faith) in Him were afterward to receive. For the [Holy] Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (raised to honor).
But that KIND of morality is a law of the flesh and NOT of the spirit. It doesn't come from a changed heart. Many unsaved people are also very disciplined and can do many good works in the world for their humanitarian ways. Morality is a good thing. Even atheists see the wisdom of living morally and being kind to fellow humans and loving the planet and not beating the dog.
We have been set free from the law of sin and death that depends on ITSELF apart from Christ. But IN Christ.... The law of the Spirit is done through the new man created IN Christ Jesus UNTO good works...The Holy Spirit teaching and directing comforting and empowering our new man in Christ..
The fruit of the Holy Spirit comes from born again people walking IN the spirit ....submitting to the Holy Spirit. When we try to be righteous by ourselves it becomes a work of the flesh and counts for nothing but a bending to a law that works.
The law is good and always was good., but the law cannot save or free us OR CHANGE OUR HEARTS. Only Jesus can do that by grace through faith. And now we we walk in the spirit., or NEW nature.
I've never been a very self disciplined person and so when I'm trying to discipline myself by myself I have NO victory. But when I read about Jesus in the Bible and how it is Him that will be working in me both do WILL AND TO DO I see the true principal of how this works.
Gal.5:17 How to tell when you are walking in the Spirit or in the flesh;
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the desires of the flesh are opposed to the [Holy] Spirit, and the [desires of the] Spirit are opposed to the flesh (godless human nature); for these are antagonistic to each other [continually withstanding and in conflict with each other], so that you are not free but are prevented from doing what you desire to do.
[SUP]
18 [/SUP]But if you are guided (led) by the [Holy] Spirit, you are not subject to the Law.
[SUP]
19 [/SUP]Now the doings (practices) of the flesh are clear (obvious): they are immorality, impurity, indecency,
[SUP]
20 [/SUP]Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies),
[SUP]
21 [/SUP]Envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
[SUP]
22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,
[SUP]
23 [/SUP]Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [[SUP][f][/SUP]that can bring a charge].
[SUP]
24 [/SUP]And those who belong to Christ Jesus (the Messiah) have crucified the flesh (the godless human nature) with its passions and appetites and desires.
[SUP]
25 [/SUP]If we live by the [Holy] Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. [If by the Holy Spirit [SUP][g][/SUP]we have our life in God, let us go forward [SUP][h][/SUP]walking in line, our conduct controlled by the Spirit.]
[SUP]
26 [/SUP]Let us not become vainglorious and self-conceited, competitive and challenging and provoking and irritating to one another, envying and being jealous of one another.
If a Christian is not able to control themselves when they are afraid.... when they are angry....when they are lazy...etc..... it means they have yet to mature and need to LEARN HOW TO CONTROL THEIR FLESH by walking IN their spirit submitted and controlled by the by the Holy Spirit.
There SHOULD BE on a daily basis; joy and peace flowing into our lives as Jesus told us in John 7:38-39
[SUP]38 [/SUP]He who believes in Me [who cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Me] as the Scripture has said, From his innermost being shall flow [continuously] springs and rivers of living water.
[SUP]
39 [/SUP]But He was speaking here of the Spirit, Whom those who believed (trusted, had faith) in Him were afterward to receive. For the [Holy] Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (raised to honor).
This is so important to know. Jesus came to give us LIFE. Only Jesus can make a dead person alive and then change them and make them whole in Him. A changed moral life style has it's rewards here on earth but it can't save anyone nor can it give anyone a new mind and new heart. That is the miracle of REDEMPTION! AMEN!!
"
...
What you say:
Originally Posted by Nehemiah6
Would you say that the Hyper Grace preachers have adopted some Gnostic ideas and woven them into their theology? It would seem that way.
Originally Posted by graceNpeace
I would not dignify their theology by claiming a gnostic component - to simply say that they are confused covers it well, does it not?
What I hear:
There's no confusion about believing that the Bible says:
Nor are those concepts remotely gnostic.
-JGIG
What you say:
Would you say that the Hyper Grace preachers have adopted some Gnostic ideas and woven them into their theology? It would seem that way.
I would not dignify their theology by claiming a gnostic component - to simply say that they are confused covers it well, does it not?
What I hear:
"Let's not come and reason with the Scriptures, building each other up in Christ, but let's instead mislabel and discredit those (they're just 'confused') who disagree with our interpretation of Scripture and/or deviate from our theological construct."
There's no confusion about believing that the Bible says:
- When God saves, He saves completely (Heb. 7-10)
- When we as believers sin, we can come to God's throne of grace with confidence in Christ, not that we 'fall from grace' when we sin (Heb. 4, Gal. 5)
- That grace teaches us to say no to ungodliness, God does not beat us into submission (Tit. 2, Heb. 12)
Nor are those concepts remotely gnostic.
-JGIG
