Apostles!

[VW]

Isn't that what you're doing?


I believe in Jesus Christ. Do you?


I know it exists, that it is fooling many


I absolutely believe in the coming resurrection. The only one raised so far is Jesus Christ.


It says in Ephesians we have the earnest of the purchased possession. The down payment. That's holy spirit, received when we get born again. Romans 10:9


That's your word.


Exactly. But we do not have the fullness of what's coming yet.


OH NO! NOT THAT!


That's what I'm doing. Well, actually, I'm waiting for the return of Christ. It could happen at any time.

...And just in case you misunderstood me, I absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, believe God raised Jesus Christ from the dead about 1980 years ago. He is the firstfruits from the dead. We'll follow, but it has not happened yet.

Hmmmm.............Wonder what Jesus was talking about when He said that the hour is coming and now is, (that means that it has already come, don't you reckon?) when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear shall live? At the moment He was speaking, everyone hearing Him was dead. Dead in their sins, dead in the fact that they did not have life, that is, eternal life. Jesus came to give us eternal life, don't you agree? But according to you it is eternal life which is deferred, until He returns. Again, Jesus said that He is the resurrection and the life, which believe it or not, are not the same thing, or He would have said that He is the resurrection alone, because that it is also the life would be understood.

Eternal life is not just without end, it is also without beginning. Jesus has no beginning and no end. I am alive in Him, in His life, the life which He gave me, the life which He is. That life has no beginning. It also has no end. And so Jesus said that the one who lives and believes in Him will never die.

There are two kinds of life, one which is not life at all, and the other which is eternal. When God created Adam, He breathed His life into Adam, and he had life eternal, no beginning, no end. Then Adam sinned, and died. No eternal life, but still he existed. But he was dead, because his life was that which was of the flesh, not of God. In Adam, all died, which includes us. In Jesus Christ, all are alive, which again includes us.

Once we have been born of the flesh, and this birth is not to eternal life, and so is a birth into death. Something we all have known is our lot, to die. But because we had to die, we did not have the Life, eternal life which is from God. When we receive the Holy Spirit, who is God, He makes us alive in Jesus Christ, in His life. This is not symbolic, nor is it deferred until a later date, but is our life now. Beloved, now we are the children of God. It does not appear what we shall become, but we know that when we see Him, we will become just as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies themselves even as He is pure. We are spiritually alive in Jesus Christ, eternally alive in Him. We just need new bodies.

 

[livingbygrace]

Hmmmm.............Wonder what Jesus was talking about when He said that the hour is coming and now is, (that means that it has already come, don't you reckon?) when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear shall live.

Hi VW

I am not disagreeing with you that Christ spoke to people who were dead in their sin, and those who heard his words(believed) would live

But do you think Christ may also of been refering to those who had actually died ?

As Peter wrote

He was put to death in the body but made alive by the spirit, through whom he went and preached also to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built
1 Peter 3:19&20

So when Jesus said the hour IS COMING when the dead would hear his voice I just wondered if that may also be concerning the spirits he preached to after he had been crucified, but I also accept your point when Jesus said
'And now is' in relation to the dead spiritually on earth hearing his voice

Just a thought

 

[VW]

Hi VW

I am not disagreeing with you that Christ spoke to people who were dead in their sin, and those who heard his words(believed) would live

But do you think Christ may also of been refering to those who had actually died also?

As Peter wrote

He was put to death in the body but made alive by the spirit, through whom he went and preached also to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built
1 Peter 3:19&20

So when Jesus said the hour IS COMING when the dead would hear his voice I just wondered if that may also be concerning the spirits he preached to after he had been crucified, but I also accept your point when Jesus said
'And now is' in relation to the dead spiritually on earth hearing his voice

Just a thought

Not really, because just a few sentences later, He said that the hour is coming when all those who are in the tombs shall hear His voice and come forth; those who did good deeds to a resurrection of life and those who did evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. I believe that the resurrection is often confused with the rapture because of a misunderstanding of this point. He is the resurrection, and the life. One resurrection results in life, but we are raised in Him to life already. I believe that it is eternal life that we are raised to in Him, His eternal life. That is why we are not awaiting a resurrection.

Agreed, I am not trying to be contentious with you either. If I have offended, please forgive me.

In Christ,

 

[livingbygrace]

Not really, because just a few sentences later, He said that the hour is coming when all those who are in the tombs shall hear His voice and come forth; those who did good deeds to a resurrection of life and those who did evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. I believe that the resurrection is often confused with the rapture because of a misunderstanding of this point. He is the resurrection, and the life. One resurrection results in life, but we are raised in Him to life already. I believe that it is eternal life that we are raised to in Him, His eternal life. That is why we are not awaiting a resurrection.

Agreed, I am not trying to be contentious with you either. If I have offended, please forgive me.

In Christ,

You haven't offended me at all VW there is nothing to apologise for. Thank you for responding to my query.

God Bless

 

[shroom2]

Hmmmm.............Wonder what Jesus was talking about when He said that the hour is coming and now is, (that means that it has already come, don't you reckon?) when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear shall live? At the moment He was speaking, everyone hearing Him was dead. Dead in their sins, dead in the fact that they did not have life, that is, eternal life. Jesus came to give us eternal life, don't you agree?

He came to make salvation from eternal death possible. He accomplished it.

But according to you it is eternal life which is deferred, until He returns.

That is correct. Actually, it's according to God's Word. He will return first for the Christian church. Then later there will be two more resurrections, the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust. Until those events occur, dead people stay dead. They "know nothing". They "cannot praise". When He returns for the church, the "dead in Christ will rise first". So there are "dead" people in Christ. Dead believers. Christians.

Again, Jesus said that He is the resurrection and the life, which believe it or not, are not the same thing, or He would have said that He is the resurrection alone, because that it is also the life would be understood.

Yes. It's because of what he accomplished that men can be saved. And they will have everlasting life.

Eternal life is not just without end, it is also without beginning. Jesus has no beginning and no end.

This is a topic for another thread, but Jesus did have a beginning.

I am alive in Him, in His life, the life which He gave me, the life which He is. That life has no beginning. It also has no end. And so Jesus said that the one who lives and believes in Him will never die.

If he tarries long enough, you will die. "it is appointed to man once to die". If you're born again, when he returns, you will be raised.

There are two kinds of life, one which is not life at all, and the other which is eternal. When God created Adam, He breathed His life into Adam, and he had life eternal, no beginning, no end.

So Adam had no beginning? Or just Adam's "eternal life" had no beginning? What does that mean?

Then Adam sinned, and died. No eternal life, but still he existed. But he was dead, because his life was that which was of the flesh, not of God. In Adam, all died, which includes us. In Jesus Christ, all are alive, which again includes us.

That is exactly right, but we have to wait for "the redemption of the purchased possession". We now have the earnest, the down payment.

Once we have been born of the flesh, and this birth is not to eternal life, and so is a birth into death. Something we all have known is our lot, to die. But because we had to die, we did not have the Life, eternal life which is from God. When we receive the Holy Spirit, who is God, He makes us alive in Jesus Christ, in His life. This is not symbolic, nor is it deferred until a later date, but is our life now. Beloved, now we are the children of God. It does not appear what we shall become, but we know that when we see Him, we will become just as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies themselves even as He is pure. We are spiritually alive in Jesus Christ, eternally alive in Him. We just need new bodies.

It will happen. Christians will live forever. But if you die today, you, along with everyone else who has died, will have to wait.

The devils lie, "ye shall NOT surely die", is still a lie.

 

[VW]

Your theology is self defeating. You know why? Because only the new life is a righteous life.

So, you can live in defeat and await a resurrection, or you can accept the heritage of a living child of God, born again of the Holy Spirit, to live forever in Jesus Christ and His resurrection.

As you might guess, I have chosen the latter, after much revelation from God.

I wish you luck in your endeavor.

 

[VW]

I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life that I now live, in live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

You have died and your life is now hidden in God with Christ.

Beloved, now we are the children of God.

Hmmm.............God's children die? Not on your life.

 

[shroom2]

I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life that I now live, in live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

You have died and your life is now hidden in God with Christ.

Beloved, now we are the children of God.

Hmmm.............God's children die? Not on your life.

VW, I agree with everything you say except that the realization of what is promised will not occur until Christ returns for the church. Ephesians says we have the token, the earnest. We will have the fullness of it when Christ returns. It's our hope:

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Until Christ returns, the dead remain dead.

 

[VW]

VW, I agree with everything you say except that the realization of what is promised will not occur until Christ returns for the church. Ephesians says we have the token, the earnest. We will have the fullness of it when Christ returns. It's our hope:

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Until Christ returns, the dead remain dead.

Our hope is the redemption of the flesh. Those who have died not in Christ are dead; but of course, they were dead already. But as scripture says, those who have gone on who are in Christ have fallen asleep.

I apologize for seeming to harp on this, but I know of to be very important to is in our walk in this world. There is so much scripture which details our being alive in Jesus, in His life. And we are called to love in this life, even now. It is how Jesus walked in His time in the world, in His Father. This is why He could say that if someone had seen Him, then they had also seen the Father. And just as He showed the Father in this world, so we are to show Jesus in this world.

I know that this goes against what you might have been taught and what you believe, but I beg you to pray and ask the Spirit to give you answer if there be any truth in this.

In Christ, with my sincere apologies for my earlier tone,
Vic

 

[zone]

Satan had it thoroughly decimated by about the end of the first century. We still need people with those gift ministries today. There is nothing in the bible that says they ceased, unless you misinterpret "whether there be tongues, they shall cease". The manifestations and gift ministries will be with us until they are no longer needed, the return of Christ.

absolutely false, every sentence.
but carry on.

 

[shroom2]

Our hope is the redemption of the flesh. Those who have died not in Christ are dead; but of course, they were dead already. But as scripture says, those who have gone on who are in Christ have fallen asleep.

I apologize for seeming to harp on this, but I know of to be very important to is in our walk in this world. There is so much scripture which details our being alive in Jesus, in His life. And we are called to love in this life, even now. It is how Jesus walked in His time in the world, in His Father. This is why He could say that if someone had seen Him, then they had also seen the Father. And just as He showed the Father in this world, so we are to show Jesus in this world.

I know that this goes against what you might have been taught and what you believe, but I beg you to pray and ask the Spirit to give you answer if there be any truth in this.

In Christ, with my sincere apologies for my earlier tone,
Vic

Thanks for the civil post. I can get a little...curt... when I see things that I disagree with.

Sorry, VW, but I believe the bible teaches that the dead are dead, and will remain so until either the return of Christ for the church (for Christians) or one of the two upcoming resurrections. We have the token, the guarantee, but will not have the fullness of it until future. The only one raised to eternal life so far is Jesus Christ.

God bless.

 

[shroom2]

absolutely false, every sentence.
but carry on.

Actually, it's true. A little research would prove it to you.

2 Tim 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

The first century church grew very quickly, then fizzeled quickly.

And the manifestations and gift ministries are still available, and will be until the return.

Stay ignorant if you want, zone. After all, ignorance is bliss, right?

 

[Graybeard]

Yes, like.

That's exactly what they were.

now why would Jesus want to preach to evil spirits?..who are fallen angels along with satan...no, those where spirits of people who once lived.

 

[shroom2]

now why would Jesus want to preach to evil spirits?..who are fallen angels along with satan...no, those where spirits of people who once lived.

Dead people are dead. There is nothing left of them to witness to. Especially the people from the time of Noah, whose every thought was only evil continually. The had no spirit to "live on", at least not from God.

Ever since Genesis 3:15, when God promised the savior, the devil was trying to prevent it from happening. This is why people became so evil in the time of Noah. Devil spirits manifested themselves as human and had offspring with human women. After the flood, God chained the spirits responsible to prevent a future occurrence. These are the spirits Christ witnessed to in his resurrected body. He wanted them to know they FAILED in their attempts to stop the promise of God.

Google 'nephilim' if you want.

God bless

 

[wakeup]

Hi VW

I am not disagreeing with you that Christ spoke to people who were dead in their sin, and those who heard his words(believed) would live

But do you think Christ may also of been refering to those who had actually died ?

As Peter wrote

He was put to death in the body but made alive by the spirit, through whom he went and preached also to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built
1 Peter 3:19&20

So when Jesus said the hour IS COMING when the dead would hear his voice I just wondered if that may also be concerning the spirits he preached to after he had been crucified, but I also accept your point when Jesus said
'And now is' in relation to the dead spiritually on earth hearing his voice

Just a thought

Its not about the spiritually dead,but the dead in the flesh.

If we die today we will open our eyes today( we dont follow time anymore)we awake but in the time zone years has gone past. Jesus said to the thief; verily i say unto you today you will be WITH ME in paradise; BUT HE DID NOT GO TO PARADISE THAT DAY. instead he was burried for 3 days. Was he not telling the truth? He was telling the truth because time stops at death,when the thief will opens his eyes,he will find himself in paradise, but 2000yrs has gone past in the time zone.

Those angels in prison will be judged with satan after God is finished with satan,and they will be cast in the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels.mat.25:41.
Gog and magog must happen first this is just after the 1000yrs when satan will be let loose for a season. sorry just trying to be helpful.

 

[VW]

Dead people are dead. There is nothing left of them to witness to. Especially the people from the time of Noah, whose every thought was only evil continually. The had no spirit to "live on", at least not from God.

Ever since Genesis 3:15, when God promised the savior, the devil was trying to prevent it from happening. This is why people became so evil in the time of Noah. Devil spirits manifested themselves as human and had offspring with human women. After the flood, God chained the spirits responsible to prevent a future occurrence. These are the spirits Christ witnessed to in his resurrected body. He wanted them to know they FAILED in their attempts to stop the promise of God.

Google 'nephilim' if you want.

God bless

I have to disagree with you. There is nothing God has to say to those spirits. They know their fate, the lake of fire. There will not even be a trial, because they are in rebellion against God.

The spirits that Jesus witnessed to were the saints who were in Abraham's bosom, and He led them away into heaven. Up until the time that Jesus rose from the dead, every person who died in the flesh went into the belly of the earth, into Satan's realm. There was a place of comfort for those who were faithful. These Jesus lead into heaven.

Even in His walk in this world, Jesus never witnessed to the evil spirits, just told them what to do.

 

[wakeup]

now why would Jesus want to preach to evil spirits?..who are fallen angels along with satan...no, those where spirits of people who once lived.

To show them that he is alive and well,and that their judgement is coming.
They are not evil spirits but the fallen angels that left their estate(heaven) and indulge them selfs with the fair women,corupting Gods creation,creating their own breed,i think the world is doing it right now in secret.what you say?

Evil spirits are them that are half angel and half human; they died in the flood but their spirits God wont accept back in heaven,so they are wondering around on earth causing trouble for mankind. The fallen angels are working for satan the prince,dceiving the nations,and causing wars. This is in the book of enoch.

 

[shroom2]

I have to disagree with you. There is nothing God has to say to those spirits. They know their fate, the lake of fire. There will not even be a trial, because they are in rebellion against God.

The spirits that Jesus witnessed to were the saints who were in Abraham's bosom, and He led them away into heaven. Up until the time that Jesus rose from the dead, every person who died in the flesh went into the belly of the earth, into Satan's realm. There was a place of comfort for those who were faithful. These Jesus lead into heaven.

Even in His walk in this world, Jesus never witnessed to the evil spirits, just told them what to do.

Please read this, VW:

I Pet 3:
19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

 

[VW]

Please read this, VW:

I Pet 3:
19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

I have read this. I believe that you are reading more into it than is there.

All of us have been disobedient.

The spirits you believe this is referring to were much more than disobedient.

 

[livingbygrace]

Its not about the spiritually dead,but the dead in the flesh.

quote]

I agree, Jesus went and preached to those who were dead in the flesh(had physically died and left this earth).

For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are NOW dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

1 Peter 4:6

I do not believe that a person dies and is concious of nothing until the day of judgement, but like you I do not believe when a person dies they go straight to Heaven. I believe the theif WAS with Jesus in paradise the day he died on the cross, but paradise is not Heaven