Wow!

[dscherck]

Rather the opposite. Here is his ID, provng he was a priest.....

[SIZE=+1] This I. D. card was issued by the Spanish government in Spain in 1967, under the rule of the Spanish dictator Franco. His security forces were equally as strict as the Gestapo had been in Germany. To obtain this document, Alberto had to supply birth certificate, identification papers and positive proof from his archdiocese of being a priest. Several security organizations were involved, similar to our CIA and FBI. The priest, Alberto Rivera, had to be approved by all of these organizations to receive this document. There was no way it could have been a forgery. There is no question he was a priest. What you see here is positive proof. This document was granted by a government that had pledged absolute submission to the pope through the concordat signed by the government of Spain and the Vatican. (Quote by Jack Chick's Book “Smokescreens”)


[/SIZE]Here is a letter he received from the Archbishop of Madrid, stating he was a priest and giving him permission to travel abroad on church business: http://www.chick.com/reading/comics/0112/letter.asp

Those are proven fakes. We've provided evidence in this very thread several times.

 

[Katy-follower]

Those are proven fakes. We've provided evidence in this very thread several times.

So, to confirm then - the Catholic church defends themselves against the testimony of an ex Jesuit priest, Alberto Rivera, by claiming he never was a priest and that all evidence is forged? Interestingly, the same thing has been done with many other ex Jesuit priests who turned from Catholicism. They were accused of never being priests.

So why would Alberto also dress as a priest and travel for church business, if he was never a priest?

Either he decided to live a lie by dressing as a priest (which would not gain him anything) or someone wanted to conceal the fact he was a priest. So what would that said person gain? Obviously a lot. He''s dead, he can't talk!

His official certification.....

No one has ever disproved his priestly credentials proves he's real.

The persecution he's endured since he began exposing Rome proves he's real

The thousands of souls that have been saved through his ministry prove he's real.

History, and the writings of many others prove he's real.


"Is Alberto For Real?" by Sidney Hunter

 

[Katy-follower]

Testimonies from former Catholics: Testimonies from former Catholics regarding Alberto Rivera

In defense of Alberto: Answer to critics of former Jesuit priest, Alberto Rivera

Betrayed?: Christianity's "defenders" ignore her greatest enemy.

Jack Chick Message: 'Alberto's death won't stop us from winning Catholics to Christ'

 

[Katy-follower]

This is a letter From the son of Dr. Alberto Rivera to people still accusing Dr. Rivera's testimony to be false. I think his son answered very well. He is a very spiritual young man and I know his father would have been proud of this reply. -T. Richards


SUBJECT: Concerning Dr. Alberto Rivera

"This is Alberto Rivera, Jr. President of A.I.C. International Christian Ministries.

I had the displeasure of reading your letter to Jack Chick, and I will inform you that since you pose questions about a man who is dead and cannot defend himself I suggest that you contact me, if it is a battle you seek to have concerning my father than you shall have it and you shall have it with me.

Your Humble Servant Alberto Rivera, Jr."

SUBJECT: Conserning Dr. Alberto Rivera, (Continued)

"What Alberto did, said, or who he claimed to be is none of my concern, however the following is, when a person has the audacity to slander a dead person whether wrong or right that concerns me. It has nothing to do with the fact that he was my father it has everything to do with the fact that you should have taken up your claims with him and no one else but him while he was alive. While you are complaining about something that does not suit you God uses his book every day to reach millions of souls for His glory!

Even through my fathers death has accomplished more than anyone alive (have you noticed how everything that he wrote concerning the Vatican and the Muslims has come to pass, where to you think he got he knowledge from?).

Which is more than I can say for anything that you have demonstrated, because instead of using your time wisely as the Bible calls us to and reach the lost you are more concerned about the truth concerning someone who is not even alive, and if you really are concerned with the subject of my father then I commend you to start a full fledged investigation if you are indeed not full of hot air.

Invest the necessary money to find out what you want to know. But I will not give you any documents concerning my father because one who does no wrong has nothing to prove if going against my father is something that God has put on your heart then He will give you all you need to reveal the truth if there is one to be revealed. One who is really called by God to do a work does not need to ask others for the truth to prove a misplaced theory.

When God asks He gives what is needed to fulfill the mission He might ask of us. As for myself please do not concern yourself for me as an evangelist that God has made my soul is well rather you should worry about yourself as you will be held accountable for your actions and not mine on judgment day.

Take notice that what you are doing is of help to know one but only of hindrance and that through your work I doubt there is any evidence of anyone having been saved and if there has I praise the Lord that you have not been a total waste in His service as you claim to be.

Your Humble Servant Evangelist Alberto Rivera, Jr. A.I.C. International Christian Ministries

 

[dscherck]

Testimonies from former Catholics: Testimonies from former Catholics regarding Alberto Rivera

In defense of Alberto: Answer to critics of former Jesuit priest, Alberto Rivera

Betrayed?: Christianity's "defenders" ignore her greatest enemy.

Jack Chick Message: 'Alberto's death won't stop us from winning Catholics to Christ'

I can understand how desperate you must be to prove he's real. But the simple fact remains, he's not. He's a fraud. Even people who are as opposed to the Catholic Church as you are have pointed out his lies. Did you even read the posts by AgeOfKnowledge or SantoSubito? Or did you just gloss over them and assume they were fake?

Even Dr. Bart Brewer, former priest and founder of Mission to Catholics international didn't want to work with him because it was painfully obvious he was a con artist.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

During WWII false paperwork was rampant in Spain. In Franco's Spain, for example, even diplomats sold thousands and thousands of passports on the black market but also several prominent diplomats provided large numbers to Jews for free to help them escape.

Even today corruption in Spain is rampant: Why Corruption Reigns in Spain

As Leslie Price of Evangelicals Now points out:

"Alberto Rivera (1935-1997) was born and brought up in the Canary Islands where harassment of Protestants was much less than in mainland Spain.
His mother died when he was nine. As a teenager he left the Roman church and was baptised in the local evangelical church at 17. After working as a fare collector on the buses, in 1955 he independently obtained a place at a Protestant seminary in Costa Rica, but was expelled in 1957. For a time he worked for the Methodist Church in Costa Rica, and in 1964-5 for the Christian Re-formed Church in New Jersey, USA, who dismissed him.

In 1967 he returned to Spain where he was employed in a Christian school and again dismissed. He then secured work with children in a Catholic parish. It was in this era that he had his photograph taken in priest's clothes on an identity card, and also obtained a certificate from the Archbishop of Madrid 'confirming' his status as a Catholic priest, which he was not.

In a brief visit to London in 1967, he encountered the Church of God in Prophecy and went to work with them in Tennessee, but was dismissed in 1968. He reappeared dressed as a priest in Puerto Rico in 1968, but returned to Florida in 1969 as a Protestant. In 1969 he functioned briefly as a priest in the Liberal Catholic Church, but left Florida suddenly and went to Seattle in Washington State. Eventually he ended up in California.

It was here that he established himself as an anti-Roman evangelist, and was also ordained as a Baptist minister. He claimed to have been a Jesuit agent, undermining Protestant churches, and to have knowledge of various atrocities, including murder, by Catholics. This message was carried around the world in millions of tracts."

This prompted investigations and he was exposed as a fraud in Christianity Today and in the Journal of Pastoral Practice in 1981. In 1983, the Christian Research Institute (CRI) exposed him as a fraud after a careful investigation. Australian and South African Protestant groups conducted separate investigations and came to exactly the same conclusion: fraud. There were many other investigations carried out as well with the same results.

Only a few Canadian Protestants and those fundamentalist Americans he had deceived continued to believe him. If you have an interest in Alberto, I recommend 'Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness: The Truth about the Vatican and the Birth of Islam' by Gary Dale Cearley as one of several well researched books on the subject.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Plenty of people have been caught fraudlently playing the role of a priest for all sorts of reasons. Con men and even hit men have been among them.

Playing the role of a priest in a Catholic country like Spain has immediate benefits. Con men need to win people's confidence and what better way to accomplish it than by playing the role of a priest.

His credentials were completely disproven.

The fact he was "persecuted" while enriching himself is besides the point. That's the predictable result of binary opposition or in layperson's terms: the attacking of an "other" group.

Lots of religious charlatans have led people to Christ. A good example is Marjoe Gortner Marjoe Gortner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He led plenty of people to Christ while having no faith of his own (he is an atheist) and filming his own scam of the faithful and laughing in hotel rooms at the bags of cash they gave him.

History, and many writings of many others prove he's a fraud and your source is just a reiteration of Chick's material. Nothing more.

So why would Alberto also dress as a priest and travel for church business, if he was never a priest?

No one has ever disproved his priestly credentials proves he's real.

The persecution he's endured since he began exposing Rome proves he's real

The thousands of souls that have been saved through his ministry prove he's real.

History, and the writings of many others prove he's real.


"Is Alberto For Real?" by Sidney Hunter

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

It's really amazing how easy it is to obtain fake credentials in Spain and most of Latin America. Fake credentials are cheap enough but you can actually buy REAL ones too for more money. There's no point in applying American legality to Spanish corruption. Why is Spain so corrupt? | The Economist

Those are proven fakes. We've provided evidence in this very thread several times.

 

[Strangelove]

Of course not! But that doesn't matter because the source is an obvious fake created to spread anti-Catholic fervor. No devout Catholic would ever accept such a thing. But you fell for it hook, line, and sinker because it confirms what you already believe. As I've pointed out repeatedly, you have no interest in the Truth whatsoever. All you care about is being right. There is no proof you will accept otherwise. Even if we somehow invented a time machine, took you to the person doing this hoax as they were doing it, and traced its propagation thenceforth, you'd still insist it was a massive Jesuit conspiracy.

Bull of Pope Clement XIV PERMANENTLY suppressing the Jesuit Order.
Given at Rome on July 21, 1773.

Is that fake too?

The Jesuit Papal Bull Suppression: Dominus ac Redemptor Noster|Marco Ponce Dot Com

 

[Strangelove]

Many first hand investigations which included direct interviews conducted by some of the best known, best educated, and respected apologists in Christiandom; hired investigators; and concerned Christian publishers and authors. We shall be clear about that even if you cannot in your own mind manage it.

The delusional psychotic condition is well established and perscription medicines and treatment regimens are established to treat it. However, the condition you've listed doesn't exist. It's just another figment of your overly active imagination.

best known, best educated, and respected apologists
best known, best educated, and respected apologists
best known, best educated, and respected apologists

Means NOTHING to truth seekers.

Nothing at all.

Your continuous efforts to paint me as a mental case only betrays your marxist agenda.

 

[Strangelove]

You guys asked for proof Rivera was genuine.

What proof would be satisfactory?

 

[Fencepost]

You guys asked for proof Rivera was genuine.

What proof would be satisfactory?

Well I do not know what the truth is between the churches. I am simply a believer. I would however like to ask a question about the Waldesians who were persucuted in the early century's of christianity upto the reformation. If you do not know of them I pray you learn. For they were utterly wiped out many a time over by catholic priests and soldiers. Please I beg of you if they were not of God how can you explain why they have survived so long living in the mountains, the desolate places of the earth? If God was not with them, then why does He attest to their presence in history and their influence in every bible you read today?

Praise God and thank you for letting me share.

 

[Consumed]

Amazes me is that even the most scholared intellectual minds thruout history of their time have at a later date been found wrong by another scholared intellectual who debunks all the previous scholared intellects as foolishness. But hey new age, new crew, interesting what the next bunch come up with lolz whether it be scientific or theological or whatever field

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Intelligent truth seekers do not dismiss the world's best scholars out-of-hand. Certainly not the aggregate of them in preference of a debunked charlatan.

The armchair uneducated "know-it-all," on the other hand, does exactly that.

My humerous portrayal of you as possibly needed some medical help for delusions doesn't make me a Marxist... lol. How you came up with that one is beyond me. I served under Ronald Reagan in the Cold War against the Marxists and was cited by Rumsfield for my service against them. I am no Marxist friend. American red, white, and blue through and through. I'll just chalk that misfire up to the delusional condition.

best known, best educated, and respected apologists
best known, best educated, and respected apologists
best known, best educated, and respected apologists

Means NOTHING to truth seekers.

Nothing at all.

Your continuous efforts to paint me as a mental case only betrays your marxist agenda.

 

[Consumed]

Lol Reagan, Rumsfield, now there's some real intellects needing psychiatric care. Didn't Reagan get his guidance thru occultic means , im sure Nancy made mention to that.
God bless America 

 

[zone]

I can understand how desperate you must be to prove he's real. But the simple fact remains, he's not. He's a fraud. Even people who are as opposed to the Catholic Church as you are have pointed out his lies. Did you even read the posts by AgeOfKnowledge or SantoSubito? Or did you just gloss over them and assume they were fake?

Even Dr. Bart Brewer, former priest and founder of Mission to Catholics international didn't want to work with him because it was painfully obvious he was a con artist.

welp,
i've look at the cries of forgery here.
DS: Christianity Today is no better than Murdock's World News....sorry.
and i didn't actually see my friend AoK do much more than ridicule Doc - where's your refutation AoK?

i looked at Katy's compelling evidence, evidence and clicked around some on my own.

so far:

RIVERA AUTHENTIC: yes

RCC: involved in smear and cover-up.

(i'll post my own findings later - from a few rather surprising sources - hint USA.gov).

 

[Fencepost]

I asked this question in all earnestness because it relates to the heart of the matter. Ignatius of Loyola Ignatius of Loyola - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia here is his wiki. and also Waldensians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia the Waldensian wiki.

I posted these so ya have a place to begin. Thank you for letting me share.

 

[Strangelove]

Intelligent truth seekers do not dismiss the world's best scholars out-of-hand. Certainly not the aggregate of them in preference of a debunked charlatan.

Worlds best scholars seem to think darwinian evolutions is absolute truth. Not allowed to dismiss their findings then no?

My humerous portrayal of you as possibly needed some medical help for delusions doesn't make me a Marxist... lol. How you came up with that one is beyond me. I served under Ronald Reagan in the Cold War against the Marxists and was cited by Rumsfield for my service against them. I am no Marxist friend. American red, white, and blue through and through. I'll just chalk that misfire up to the delusional condition.

The best marxist is the one who doesnt know he's a marxist. Chalk that one up buddy!

(by the way your protrayal was not humerous in the slightest. Offensive and condescending yes...humerous no)

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

What does scientific revolution have to do with Alberto Rivera or the fact the Jesuits were not initially formed to combat protestantism? Nothing.

It's like saying that because revolution occurs in science that George Washington might be found out to be a fraud who never was President and Joseph Smith didn't first publish the Book of Mormon by an archaeologist. It's never going to happen. The most anyone can do is spread misinformation to that effect and perhaps deceive a few people.

This is because George Washington was President of the United States and Joseph Smith did publish the first Book of Mormon so what new "age, new crew, interesting what the next bunch come up with lolz whether it be scientific or theological or whatever field" will come along and prove they did not?

Don't confuse the revolutions that occur in science as having the power to overturn the truth because they don't have that power. I'm all for the advancement of knowledge but nothing has the power to overturn the truth and misinformation should be rooted out and those who ignore emperical evidence and the historical scholars charged with preserving it challenged for doing so.

In any event, the only two points I've defended are that the Jesuits were not initially formed to combat protestantism and that Alberto Rivera is a debunked charlatan because these are well documented. I've not supported the Catholic Church's theology on controversial matters, argued against conspiracies regarding the Jesuits, taken a position on 911, etc...

I've just been discussing two points. That's all. And I'm always willing to look at ALL the evidence and qualify it to the best of my ability. I don't celebrate anti-intellectualism as if folklore and wive's tales are somehow superior.

Amazes me is that even the most scholared intellectual minds thruout history of their time have at a later date been found wrong by another scholared intellectual who debunks all the previous scholared intellects as foolishness. But hey new age, new crew, interesting what the next bunch come up with lolz whether it be scientific or theological or whatever field

 

[zone]

Christianity Today's supposed objectivity regarding Rivera (or anything else for that matter):

please consider the following pro-Vatican/ecumenism.
also: do 10 minute's research and discover who are the major sharholders of 'Christianity Today'.

Pope John Paul II | Christianity Today | A Magazine of Evangelical Conviction