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The french revolution?
Stalin?
Really? How did we get there?
I am not that into History but neither the Russian revolution nor the French revolution where atheists movements. They did not revolt because they where atheists.
Russian revolution (and Stalin): Russia was a country where the people living there where held under the boot of the Tzars (the noble rulers). Living standards where miserable, money went only to the top of society and the church that told the people that it was the divine order that the tzars ruled and the peasants worked. Meanwhile the rest of the world evolved. Normal people got rights, women got the right to vote and in Russia people on the countryside where slaves under their lords until 1861 (which made it the last country in Europe to allow slavery... North America of course where a bit worse and had slavery until 1865). So when the people revolted it was not because they where atheists but because they wanted rights as everybody else. The hatred towards the clergy was because they had helped the nobles to suppress the people (and get rich in the process doing so). Then of course, the wrong people came into power. They did not like the church since it was a rival to them when it came to power. So they set out to oppress it... So Stalin was an atheist (i guess) but he did not start a revolution because of that.
French revolution: Sort of the same story as the Russian revolution. The people did fight for their rights - and since the church and helped the rulers in keeping them down they where not liked.
In both these cases (Russian and French revolution) I would say that the hatred towards the christian churches was "justified" in that the priests, bishops and cardinals sided with the power in the country, gaining money and prestige (bribes to look away and to tell them lies) and did not speak for the people.
Now... this is just Discovery and Wikipedia-knowledge... so correct me if I am wrong.
Stalin?
Really? How did we get there?
I am not that into History but neither the Russian revolution nor the French revolution where atheists movements. They did not revolt because they where atheists.
Russian revolution (and Stalin): Russia was a country where the people living there where held under the boot of the Tzars (the noble rulers). Living standards where miserable, money went only to the top of society and the church that told the people that it was the divine order that the tzars ruled and the peasants worked. Meanwhile the rest of the world evolved. Normal people got rights, women got the right to vote and in Russia people on the countryside where slaves under their lords until 1861 (which made it the last country in Europe to allow slavery... North America of course where a bit worse and had slavery until 1865). So when the people revolted it was not because they where atheists but because they wanted rights as everybody else. The hatred towards the clergy was because they had helped the nobles to suppress the people (and get rich in the process doing so). Then of course, the wrong people came into power. They did not like the church since it was a rival to them when it came to power. So they set out to oppress it... So Stalin was an atheist (i guess) but he did not start a revolution because of that.
French revolution: Sort of the same story as the Russian revolution. The people did fight for their rights - and since the church and helped the rulers in keeping them down they where not liked.
In both these cases (Russian and French revolution) I would say that the hatred towards the christian churches was "justified" in that the priests, bishops and cardinals sided with the power in the country, gaining money and prestige (bribes to look away and to tell them lies) and did not speak for the people.
Now... this is just Discovery and Wikipedia-knowledge... so correct me if I am wrong.
S
I'm sorry if I have somehow offended or disappointed you. All I felt I was doing was defending my case, that there are always extremes in any group of people that most often do not reflect upon the actions of the whole. If I sent a different message it was certainly not my intent. I sincerely apologize.
It is just that as soon you start to discuss Atheism the christian throws Stalin and other communists at the Atheists and then the Atheists throw Hitler back at them.
It just don't lead nowhere.
You can be just as big of an edited regardless of you are christian or atheist.
It just don't lead nowhere.
You can be just as big of an edited regardless of you are christian or atheist.
Last edited by a moderator:
J
Well if you throw that at me I'll have to throw a few things back...
So there. Now I feel we are more than even.
This would also be very beneficial to you.
The Straight Dope: Was Hitler a Christian? <--- click
I think Hitler was just a better politician than most, he knew to pay lip service and to try and gain peoples support when he represented nothing of them, and cared nothing for what they believed.
B
I saw the first response. Church can be a fine place to know about Christianity. Just depends on where you go. Churches can be divided on what they believe, but that's because the text we use is so old it uses two ancient languages so it's hard to get english translations of the Bible to mean exaclty what the original meant. And there are many verses that don't go into detail about what people want to know about so guesses have to be made. A good thing about Christianity is that it answers many questions that aren't answered in science (unless you're one of the many Christian scientists). I noticed the title atheist confusion. What are you confused about?
R
@OP
There are many doubts many reasons why people say they do not believe there is a God. I believe because of a personal experience that i had with the one true God. Its a personal experience i have everyday. God wants to be in your life but you don't believe in him because of issues, family problems, personal insecurity's. Your reasoning that theres alot of Things about Christianity that you don't like is very good basically you are recognizing that you cannot live up to the standard that God wants you to live to. But its easier for someone to say oh i don't like that i wont believe in God. Then to say I'm a sinner and i haven't been living up to the standard which God expects of me. If we come to God in this way surely he would accept us and show us the richness of his power. God has nothing against you or anyone, Its just that people make God and Jesus out as historical and mythological figures and say God is love Jesus loves you and then we expect that Jesus takes our sin lightly. Thats simply not true frequently Jesus said things that Hurt Harsh lessons things that the disciples didn't like. Now the Disciples took the harsh words and received correction. Is your problem truly that you do not believe in God that you didn't like what you heard in church or that you didn't want to be corrected?
Atheists say everything should be explained by science. But if science fails to explain life, death, eternity, and creation then why should i trust science?
My life personally was a mess until i met Jesus and i believed in him. Fortunately for me he was willing to receive me with all the bad things i had done and i assure you i am foremost among sinners. Try to explain to yourself How is it possible for you a bunch of Molecules, Compounds, Cells, Organs,and limbs have become a living body? you are created from the same elements as the earth is and it isn't alive how is that possible without a Supernatural God.
It all comes back to original intent. Why were we created? no atheist can answer that. But there is Good news, Jesus Christ Died for your sins so that you can have an encounter with God. step out of darkness and into light. out of questions and into answers. Read a bible for yourself study it and see if there are answers for you there.
@nattmaran i don't hate anyone but i do hate sin. i don't hate homosexuals but i hate homosexuality. I don't think God resented anyone Who was Blind or disabled he just didn't want them serving in the temple infact Jesus immediately begin to minster to and heal these types of people when he began his ministry.. I believe that God uses Women as well as men. Ruth, Esther,Deborah,Elizabeth,Mary. To name a few. Mainly God set roles for man and roles for women that doesn't mean you should cover yourself from head to toe in black (Islam). God is Holy and that means Separate. Separate from what? Evil
There are many doubts many reasons why people say they do not believe there is a God. I believe because of a personal experience that i had with the one true God. Its a personal experience i have everyday. God wants to be in your life but you don't believe in him because of issues, family problems, personal insecurity's. Your reasoning that theres alot of Things about Christianity that you don't like is very good basically you are recognizing that you cannot live up to the standard that God wants you to live to. But its easier for someone to say oh i don't like that i wont believe in God. Then to say I'm a sinner and i haven't been living up to the standard which God expects of me. If we come to God in this way surely he would accept us and show us the richness of his power. God has nothing against you or anyone, Its just that people make God and Jesus out as historical and mythological figures and say God is love Jesus loves you and then we expect that Jesus takes our sin lightly. Thats simply not true frequently Jesus said things that Hurt Harsh lessons things that the disciples didn't like. Now the Disciples took the harsh words and received correction. Is your problem truly that you do not believe in God that you didn't like what you heard in church or that you didn't want to be corrected?
Atheists say everything should be explained by science. But if science fails to explain life, death, eternity, and creation then why should i trust science?
My life personally was a mess until i met Jesus and i believed in him. Fortunately for me he was willing to receive me with all the bad things i had done and i assure you i am foremost among sinners. Try to explain to yourself How is it possible for you a bunch of Molecules, Compounds, Cells, Organs,and limbs have become a living body? you are created from the same elements as the earth is and it isn't alive how is that possible without a Supernatural God.
It all comes back to original intent. Why were we created? no atheist can answer that. But there is Good news, Jesus Christ Died for your sins so that you can have an encounter with God. step out of darkness and into light. out of questions and into answers. Read a bible for yourself study it and see if there are answers for you there.
@nattmaran i don't hate anyone but i do hate sin. i don't hate homosexuals but i hate homosexuality. I don't think God resented anyone Who was Blind or disabled he just didn't want them serving in the temple infact Jesus immediately begin to minster to and heal these types of people when he began his ministry.. I believe that God uses Women as well as men. Ruth, Esther,Deborah,Elizabeth,Mary. To name a few. Mainly God set roles for man and roles for women that doesn't mean you should cover yourself from head to toe in black (Islam). God is Holy and that means Separate. Separate from what? Evil
I was brought up in a christian home but there was a period when I went astray... but Jesus pulled me back. And I am so thankful for that. I am so glad that you have found Jesus and left your destructive ways behind!
Well... I am not an atheist but i think you are a bit unfair to them now. If you want an explanation of life, death, eternity and all the other things then you can look to ANY religion. Not just Christianity. If that is the only thing you need to live a full life you can as well be a pagan, a mormon, a muslim, a hindu, a wicca witch, a scientologist or something similar.
And I do think that science have a good explanation for creation... they just can't explain what started it. And that is there (to me) God comes in.
If you just want simple answers well then any religion will do... heck you can make one up!
Well I partly agree with you... and partly disagree with you
Well... I am not an atheist but i think you are a bit unfair to them now. If you want an explanation of life, death, eternity and all the other things then you can look to ANY religion. Not just Christianity. If that is the only thing you need to live a full life you can as well be a pagan, a mormon, a muslim, a hindu, a wicca witch, a scientologist or something similar.
And I do think that science have a good explanation for creation... they just can't explain what started it. And that is there (to me) God comes in.
If you just want simple answers well then any religion will do... heck you can make one up!
Well I partly agree with you... and partly disagree with you
None of these are true. Now back then when the Bible was written, women weren't considered all that important. BUT, in the New Testament, women played a pretty good role in it. And they weren't portrayed as anything bad. They were actually represented in a good way for the most-part.
It doesn't say that slavery is OK. Not anywhere. When you find stuff that supports slavery, lemme know.
I think you're talking about the old Testament on number 3. And yes. Before Jesus came to save us, certain sins deserved death. For the WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH. But those are not valid anymore. You should NOT stone people as well as animals. That's taking stuff WAY outta context.
God does not resent homosexuals themselves. God resents what they do. And God DOES NOT HATE on disabled people. When you find THAT verse, once again, lemme know.
And yes, sometimes God did take out people. But, it's not because He didn't try to turn them to Him. It's because their hearts were so impure (once again, talking about what happened in the Old Testament), that God could not stand it. God does not tolerate sin. God can not stand to see sin. That's why we needed a Savior. That's why we need Jesus Christ. To SAVE us from our sins.
It says in Ezekiel that God DOES NOT TAKE PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF THE WICKED. So don't go on thinking that God actually ENJOYED seeing this all happen. God's judgement is just.
It doesn't say that slavery is OK. Not anywhere. When you find stuff that supports slavery, lemme know.
I think you're talking about the old Testament on number 3. And yes. Before Jesus came to save us, certain sins deserved death. For the WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH. But those are not valid anymore. You should NOT stone people as well as animals. That's taking stuff WAY outta context.
God does not resent homosexuals themselves. God resents what they do. And God DOES NOT HATE on disabled people. When you find THAT verse, once again, lemme know.
And yes, sometimes God did take out people. But, it's not because He didn't try to turn them to Him. It's because their hearts were so impure (once again, talking about what happened in the Old Testament), that God could not stand it. God does not tolerate sin. God can not stand to see sin. That's why we needed a Savior. That's why we need Jesus Christ. To SAVE us from our sins.
It says in Ezekiel that God DOES NOT TAKE PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF THE WICKED. So don't go on thinking that God actually ENJOYED seeing this all happen. God's judgement is just.
I agree that it is much better in the new testament... but as you say. It is for the most part - there are still things like:
Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
And
Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Exodus 21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
Exodus 21:28 If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.
And... about them being not valid:
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Sure...
Leviticus 21:17: Whosoever ... hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God. ... Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries."
Well... I actually think that God could have sent the sinful people a warning. If a angel with a flaming sword had appeared before them and said "stop sinning or you will be punished" i actually think that a lot more people would have turned to Christianity. So burning cities and drowning the world is a bit... harsh.
Well... firstly... I do not think that God did all these things in the OT. That is part of the old Jewish mythology and as many other things there are more myths than proven facts. It is not before the NT that we can see the Christian God in his true form when Jesus comes to save us.
Love
Anna
Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
And
Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Exodus 21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
Exodus 21:28 If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.
And... about them being not valid:
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Sure...
Leviticus 21:17: Whosoever ... hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God. ... Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries."
Well... I actually think that God could have sent the sinful people a warning. If a angel with a flaming sword had appeared before them and said "stop sinning or you will be punished" i actually think that a lot more people would have turned to Christianity. So burning cities and drowning the world is a bit... harsh.
Well... firstly... I do not think that God did all these things in the OT. That is part of the old Jewish mythology and as many other things there are more myths than proven facts. It is not before the NT that we can see the Christian God in his true form when Jesus comes to save us.
Love
Anna