The dead are asleep

[GreenNnice]

Why does it matter??

People can dismiss hell as a place of 'torment,' dude. IF Luke 16 with Lazarus and Dives is REALLY a parable and Abraham is just inserted as a 'God' as Laod or lol put it, then we are not really going to be tormented. But, IF this parable is really not fable and is really able to be proven that it is real, then hell is torment , it's a place we go AFTER we die IF we do not know Jesus. Even if we do know Him, we go there, there is a GULF seperating the believers from the non.

There is NO dismissing this fact eithter. None, nada, zip. Not that I want anyone to go there, I don't, NO christians do, no followers of God do, no one in their right mind does! , but that is what God says happens, torment and torture and it's VERY clear in Revelations 14: 10, where Satan and false prophet and beast get CAST into LAKE OF FIRE .

And then a little later in 14,15, those who do not follow Christ and are not in the Book of Life are CAST into the LAKE OF FIRE , torment forever and ever day and night .

'Course, Laod will claim that 'forever and ever' means not forever and ever because Jonah was in the whale 'forever and ever' and it only meant three days.

Ah, God, He is so mysterious, my Christ peeps

 

[Dude653]

This thread is not about hell[/COLOR]

 

[Laodicea]

Why does it matter??

Satans first lie was to tell people they will not die

 

[Dude653]

Look....If we die and go immediately to heaven or hell...or if we ''sleep'' until the day of judgement, what difference does it make? It doesnt change your destination

 

[onoma]

Phil. 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; Which is far better. My question to you is, "Could you or I have this choice? If Paul chose to depart and be with Christ, how would he get there? Would he commit suicide, or did he have the promise that if he wanted, he could have been caught up to Heaven like Enoch and Elijah? In reply to 11 Cor. 5:8, Lets look at the context of this scripture. Starting with 11 Cor. 4:14 knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise us also by Jesus and shall present us with you. Notice Paul and Corinthian believers will be together at the resurrection not when they die. Read verses 15 - 18 . Now, go to chapter 5:l,2. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan,earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven. This is what Paul was looking forward to. Verses 3 and 4, If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: Not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. What does Paul mean by being unclothed and clothed upon? If Paul had chosen to depart and be with Christ in Phil. 1:21-24, would he have been clothed or unclothed? Be careful how you answer that. Will this mortality be swallowed up of life. When we die or at resurrection? 1 Cor. 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. If you read verse 52, you will see this is at the resurrection. Now, lets look at verses 6-8 in 11 Cor. 5 - Therefore we are always confident, knowing that whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the for we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Paul says willing rather to be absent from the body. Would this make Paul clothed or unclothed? Remember, he said in verse 4, he did not want to be unclothed. And, in verse 2, To be clothed upon with our house from Heaven.

 

[nathan3]

Christ and all the apostles where clear . Sleep is just another word for die. that's all no big deal.

There is no victory in the grave. It is a terrible thing, to think that your going to be in a hole in the ground, and you'll be there, and isn't that a victory? well its not its terrible.

Christ said to the malefactor that said, 'Remember me in your Kingdom' Christ said, '''today, your going to be with me, in paradise''

He did not say tomorrow, He did not say maybe, He did not say 2000 years from now. Your Lord and Savior said '' Today''.

 

[LawofLove]

What about the verse ('verses,' I'm trying to sound erudite ) between Luke 16:15 and 16:19, does not the context get

broken

up by

the insertion of God suddenly talking about tittles of the law and man and womn and stuff ????

How do you con nect 'the steward' parable of 16:14 with the Lazarus and Dives parable 16:18 ?

There seems to be a serious disconnect.
______
Where is the con nect here too, the fact that the steward doesn't wisely use his resources has absolutely zilch to do with how rich man doesn
't help the poor man, Dives ?

C'mon, lol (laod or lawoflove), explain yourselves, thanks

Well they are both about money. And verse 14 connects to the unjust steward it says the pharisees "heard all these things". Meaning the story from the unjust steward.

The meaning of verse 18 was to show evidence that His teachings or("parables") did not cancel out those of the OT then went on to teach them their own lesson about money in a way they would understand better. Jesus knew how to meet the pharisees where they are in life. He knows how to meet our needs too and keep our attention. Using names to turn the heads of the Pharisees and make them think. And I think I have said in a previous post on this subject that Jesus dos not believe in the dichotomy between the soul and body and gave a web site showing the history from the Britannica maybe you missed it.

 

[LawofLove]

Here it is again if you missed it

The early Hebrews apparently had a concept of the soul but did not separate it from the body although later Jewish writers developed the idea of soul further. Biblical references to the soul are related to concept of breath and establish no distinction between the ethereal soul and the corporeal body. Christian concepts of a body-soul dichotomy originated with the ancient Greek and were introduced into Christian theology at an early date by St Gregory of Nyssa and by St Augustine. Taken from encyclopedia Britannica online from that web site i gave. In mat 10:28 the word soul Jesus is not making or supporting the Greek dichotomy between soul and body as separate entities. Jewish teaching did not think of persons as having souls separate from the body as Greek philosophy taught. Thus here Jesus is using the term "soul" to mean eternal life; Do not fear those who can take you from this present life (body), but fear Him who can also take away eternal life(soul). hell.

soul (religion and philosophy) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

5th paragraph.

 

[GreenNnice]

The fact that the Bible never links the words soul and eternal shows that the soul is not eternal.
Leviticus 17:11
(11) For the life (soul) of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.


The word life in this verse is translated from the same word as soul, so it could read "The soul of the flesh is in the blood" If you are honest you have to admit that a person has to have blood to have a soul. When a person dies and the blood stops flowing then their soul dies, if you are honest you have to agree with this according to this verse.

By this 'soul' and 'eternal' linked writing you just wrote below v , lol, you shoot down laod's above argument of the 'soul' not linked to 'eternal life.'

Here it is again if you missed it

The early Hebrews apparently had a concept of the soul but did not separate it from the body although later Jewish writers developed the idea of soul further. Biblical references to the soul are related to concept of breath and establish no distinction between the ethereal soul and the corporeal body. Christian concepts of a body-soul dichotomy originated with the ancient Greek and were introduced into Christian theology at an early date by St Gregory of Nyssa and by St Augustine. Taken from encyclopedia Britannica online from that web site i gave. In mat 10:28 the word soul Jesus is not making or supporting the Greek dichotomy between soul and body as separate entities. Jewish teaching did not think of persons as having souls separate from the body as Greek philosophy taught. Thus here Jesus is using the term "soul" to mean eternal life; Do not fear those who can take you from this present life (body), but fear Him who can also take away eternal life(soul). hell.

soul (religion and philosophy) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

5th paragraph.

 

[Laodicea]

By this 'soul' and 'eternal' linked writing you just wrote below v , lol, you shoot down laod's above argument of the 'soul' not linked to 'eternal life.'

I think you need to do some study on this. We receive eternal life when Jesus returns, it is not a contradiction.

 

[IMINJC]

Laodicea


You Said: Because you believe it to be literal then you believe Jesus contradicted himself. Because Jesus clearly taught that people are rewarded when He returns.

Jesus does not talk about rewards being passed out at this point. Where are the rewards? The righteous dead souls have a paradise prepared for them in the grave while they wait for their redemption through the blood of Jesus Christ. The unrighteous dead are in a waiting place as well, but it is an unpleasant place to say the least, so much so that the rich man wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to warn his brothers.

If you would point out from your view a contradiction, you should be equally alarmed that Jesus quoted a known dead person and gave no explanation for it....that doesn't alarm you even more?

 

[IMINJC]

LAODICEA


YOU SAID: When a person dies and the blood stops flowing then their soul dies, if you are honest you have to agree with this according to this verse.

No it does not....their soul leaves the body at that point...they give up the ghost. There is no scripture that says that the soul dies. Jesus himself gave us the answer to this debate, but you refuse to hear him. There is example after example of souls being conscious after death...with no explanation given to inform us that this is not to be taken literally. Jesus said himself after his resurrection that....

"A spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see that I have"..... notice he did not say..."and besides a spirit does not walk around or speak as you see me doing. "

If it does not have flesh and bone, it does not have blood either or need it to live. Notice Jesus said nothing about a spirit not having the ability to speak or have consciousness. This would have been the perfect spot to inform all of us that a spirit is sleep at death.

 

[IMINJC]

dude663


YOU SAID: Why does it matter??


It matters to me primarily because soul sleep is a Jehovah's Wittness doctrine. They use it to preach against hell for unbelievers. And besides, it is a good wittnessing tool to warn people so they can avoid this place. That's the only thing the rich man wanted was for his brothers to be warned that such a place exists after death. Jesus thought it was important for us to know this information, so it is only right to preach it and correct those who say it's not so.

 

[Laodicea]

LAODICEA


YOU SAID: When a person dies and the blood stops flowing then their soul dies, if you are honest you have to agree with this according to this verse.

No it does not....their soul leaves the body at that point...they give up the ghost. There is no scripture that says that the soul dies. Jesus himself gave us the answer to this debate, but you refuse to hear him. There is example after example of souls being conscious after death...with no explanation given to inform us that this is not to be taken literally. Jesus said himself after his resurrection that....

"A spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see that I have"..... notice he did not say..."and besides a spirit does not walk around or speak as you see me doing. "

If it does not have flesh and bone, it does not have blood either or need it to live. Notice Jesus said nothing about a spirit not having the ability to speak or have consciousness. This would have been the perfect spot to inform all of us that a spirit is sleep at death.

Go to this link http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/38967-dead-asleep-18.html#post745775 it is a link to a previous post, read and study every verse then tell me how do they match up with the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Use the Bible for your opinion not your own words.

 

[Laodicea]

dude663


YOU SAID: Why does it matter??


It matters to me primarily because soul sleep is a Jehovah's Wittness doctrine. They use it to preach against hell for unbelievers. And besides, it is a good wittnessing tool to warn people so they can avoid this place. That's the only thing the rich man wanted was for his brothers to be warned that such a place exists after death. Jesus thought it was important for us to know this information, so it is only right to preach it and correct those who say it's not so.

Telling people about eternal torment is not a good witnessing tool. We need to tell people about the love of God. Only by love is love awakened.

 

[Laodicea]

Laodicea


You Said: Because you believe it to be literal then you believe Jesus contradicted himself. Because Jesus clearly taught that people are rewarded when He returns.

Jesus does not talk about rewards being passed out at this point. Where are the rewards? The righteous dead souls have a paradise prepared for them in the grave while they wait for their redemption through the blood of Jesus Christ. The unrighteous dead are in a waiting place as well, but it is an unpleasant place to say the least, so much so that the rich man wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to warn his brothers.

If you would point out from your view a contradiction, you should be equally alarmed that Jesus quoted a known dead person and gave no explanation for it....that doesn't alarm you even more?

If the story is real then Jesus would have contradicted himself when he said that people are rewarded when he returns.
Matthew 16:27
(27) for the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Matthew 25:31-33
(31) when the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(32) and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(33) and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matthew 25:34
(34) then shall the king say unto them on his right hand, come, ye blessed of my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:41
(41) then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 22:12
(12) and, behold, i come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

[Laodicea]

The fact that the Bible never links the words soul and eternal shows that the soul is not eternal.
Leviticus 17:11
(11) For the life (soul) of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.


The word life in this verse is translated from the same word as soul, so it could read "The soul of the flesh is in the blood" If you are honest you have to admit that a person has to have blood to have a soul. When a person dies and the blood stops flowing then their soul dies, if you are honest you have to agree with this according to this verse.

This means No Blood = No Soul. To say otherwise is to ignore scripture.

 

[newcovenantchristian]

Laodicea


You Said: Because you believe it to be literal then you believe Jesus contradicted himself. Because Jesus clearly taught that people are rewarded when He returns.

Jesus does not talk about rewards being passed out at this point. Where are the rewards? The righteous dead souls have a paradise prepared for them in the grave while they wait for their redemption through the blood of Jesus Christ. The unrighteous dead are in a waiting place as well, but it is an unpleasant place to say the least, so much so that the rich man wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to warn his brothers.

If you would point out from your view a contradiction, you should be equally alarmed that Jesus quoted a known dead person and gave no explanation for it....that doesn't alarm you even more?

I believe that where we spend eternity is decided at conversion

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemnd; he has crossed over from death to life

John 5:24

The Christian goes to sleep in Christ in the place of the righteous dead until the resurrection of the dead, then they will live with God in the New Jerusalem, the day of judgement concerns reward, not to decide where we spend eternity

I think from your post we mainly agree

 

[GreenNnice]

Telling people about eternal torment is not a good witnessing tool. We need to tell people about the love of God. Only by love is love awakened.

Telling people about eternal torment being real is The Truth, everyone should tell The Truth. The Lord leads, laod.
The dead are not ALL asleep is The Truth, too; the bible proves this opinion of mine, true.

God will bring with Him THOSE who sleep in Jesus. I know not who sleeps , but by virtue of Hebrews 12:1 and rev. 6 martyred souls and MANY other 'veiled' references, definitely NOT all sleep now. But, if one does sleep and died a believer, they 'sleep in Jesus,' thess. 4 telld us

 

[Laodicea]

Telling people about eternal torment being real is The Truth, everyone should tell The Truth. The Kord leads laod.

The Bible does not teach eternal torment it is a catholic doctrine which they got from paganism. There is a judgment but, not eternal torment.