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C
These two passages say that The 'judgment' is 'forever and ever.'
Revelation 14
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation
The Dead Are Judged AND forever tormented after theit judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
”Cast ,” or, ”thrown” into the ”lake of fire,” The false prophets, Beast, Devil are (v.10).
”Cast” (or thrown) into The ”lake of fire,” those not found written in the Book Of Life are (v.15)
What does NOT expressly speak of eternal torment not real for those not written in Book of Life?
And, Laod, same words used in verse 10 and 14: forever and ever .
Revelation 14
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation
The Dead Are Judged AND forever tormented after theit judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
”Cast ,” or, ”thrown” into the ”lake of fire,” The false prophets, Beast, Devil are (v.10).
”Cast” (or thrown) into The ”lake of fire,” those not found written in the Book Of Life are (v.15)
What does NOT expressly speak of eternal torment not real for those not written in Book of Life?
And, Laod, same words used in verse 10 and 14: forever and ever .
second green part: it says the lake of fire is the second death, what part of that proves eternal torment?
for the devil being tormented forever: ok, but thats only the devil
L
Of course it's all literal.
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
This is a record of the things that John saw as revealed from Jesus Christ The Lord. I am a total loss as to why this is so difficult to understand. John recorded everything he saw and was told and wrote it down in a book as all Biblical authors have done. If what he wrote does not make sense to you, then pray for wisdom but do not presume or put your own version of what was going on into the text and say John saw other things but chose to represent them through symbols or paraphrased or wrote in code or other bizarre and unsubstantiated readings of Scripture.
Thus when he saw the souls of martyrs who were slain for their testimony, it is not symbolic. He really saw them. And they are fully conscious. Just as the disembodied spirits of demons are. Just as the rich man and Lazarus were in the account given by Jesus. There is no debate here. We clearly see examples of the dead being conscious and self-aware.
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
This is a record of the things that John saw as revealed from Jesus Christ The Lord. I am a total loss as to why this is so difficult to understand. John recorded everything he saw and was told and wrote it down in a book as all Biblical authors have done. If what he wrote does not make sense to you, then pray for wisdom but do not presume or put your own version of what was going on into the text and say John saw other things but chose to represent them through symbols or paraphrased or wrote in code or other bizarre and unsubstantiated readings of Scripture.
Thus when he saw the souls of martyrs who were slain for their testimony, it is not symbolic. He really saw them. And they are fully conscious. Just as the disembodied spirits of demons are. Just as the rich man and Lazarus were in the account given by Jesus. There is no debate here. We clearly see examples of the dead being conscious and self-aware.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Signified. Gr. sēmainō, “to indicate [or, “attest”] by a sign,”=symbolic
I
LAODICEA
YOU SAID: So you believe that there is a lamb in heaven with 7 eyes and 7 horns. Next you will tell me that the dragon with 7 heads is literal.
In the book of Revelation, everything that needs an interpretation the Lord made sure that he provided one for us, by either an Angel, an Elder, or the Lord Himself. Where there is no interpretation given or offered, we can obviously take that scripture literally and accept what the Lord gave us and how he gave it to us. Your problem is that your theology does not agree with the scriptures that are given where the Lord did not provide an interpretation....so you take it upon yourself to provide one when the Lord does not require you to do that. You should allow scripture to shape your theology rather than forcing your theology to shape scripture.
YOU SAID: So you believe that there is a lamb in heaven with 7 eyes and 7 horns. Next you will tell me that the dragon with 7 heads is literal.
In the book of Revelation, everything that needs an interpretation the Lord made sure that he provided one for us, by either an Angel, an Elder, or the Lord Himself. Where there is no interpretation given or offered, we can obviously take that scripture literally and accept what the Lord gave us and how he gave it to us. Your problem is that your theology does not agree with the scriptures that are given where the Lord did not provide an interpretation....so you take it upon yourself to provide one when the Lord does not require you to do that. You should allow scripture to shape your theology rather than forcing your theology to shape scripture.
E
It is symbolic not literal
But Ellen White might have had it taught.
Origins of the Doctrine of Soul Sleep and Annihilation in Adventism
Ellen White’s Take On Soul Sleep
Ellen White considered the teachings of soul sleep and annihilation to be proof of God’s revelation of special knowledge to the remnant church of God. It elevated the new church to a position of honor in contrast to all other churches which she had categorized as Babylon. “Every species of delusion is now being brought in. The plainest truths of God's Word are covered with a mass of man-made theories. Deadly errors are presented as the truth to which all must bow. The simplicity of true godliness is buried beneath tradition. The doctrine of the natural immortality of the soul is one error with which the enemy is deceiving man. This error is well-nigh universal…This is one of the lies forged in the synagogue of the enemy, one of the poisonous drafts of Babylon.” Evangelism p. 247
One of the primary fears that continues to sustain the teaching of soul sleep is the fear of deception by the enemy. It is taught that if one believes in the immortality of the soul, then Satan and his angels will be able to impersonate the departed and deceive thousands. Interestingly, it is also this fear that has created the Adventist resistance to the Holy Spirit. It has paved the way for any supernatural happening to be suspect as a deception from the enemy. Here are some statements that expose the roots of those fears.
“Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience.” GC p. 588
It is these fears that have fueled wrong decisions regarding prayer in schools, abortion and other godly principles that cut across the very foundations that have protected this nation. In an article in Ministry Magazine, John Stevens, then Director of Religious Liberty in the Pacific Union Conference wrote, “Abortion is a religious moral issue and should not be legislated. If it is, the New Christian Right could eventually exercise its political clout on Sunday observance. The danger is not in whether an issue is Scripturally correct or not, but the loss of constitutional freedom.” Fear seems to be the major motivator for the doctrines that run athwart mainstream Christian belief.
”As spiritualism more closely imitates the nominal Christianity (any church not Adventist) of the day, it has greater power to deceive and ensnare. Satan himself is converted, after the modern order of things. He will appear in the character of an angel of light. Through the agency of spiritualism, miracles will be wrought, the sick will be healed, and many undeniable wonders will be performed. And as the spirits will profess faith in the Bible, and manifest respect for the institutions of the church, their work will be accepted as a manifestation of divine power.” GC p. 588
While the Bible does warn us of Satan masquerading as an angel of light, it has been carried to the extreme in Adventism. Many will not accept any manifestations of the Holy Spirit since the time of Ellen White. Another common theme demonstrated in the quotation above is the creation of barriers of suspicion toward any other Christian church.
In the following quotation we see the doctrines of the Sabbath and soul sleep linked together again. In a separate study we will show how both of these doctrines are tied to the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment.
“Satan will have power to bring before us the appearance of forms purporting to be our relatives or friends now sleeping in Jesus. It will be made to appear as if these friends were present; the words that they uttered while here, with which we were familiar, will be spoken, and the same tone of voice that they had while living will fall upon the ear. All this is to deceive the saints and ensnare them into the belief of this delusion. I saw that the saints must get a thorough understanding of present truth, which they will be obliged to maintain from the Scriptures. They must understand the state of the dead; for the spirits of devils will yet appear to them, professing to be beloved friends and relatives, who will declare to them that the Sabbath has been changed, also other unscriptural doctrines. They will do all in their power to excite sympathy and will work miracles before them to confirm what they declare. The people of God must be prepared to withstand these spirits with the Bible truth that the dead know not anything, and that they who appear to them are the spiritsof devils…I saw the rapidity with which this delusion was spreading. A train of cars was shown me, going with the speed of lightning. The angel bade me look carefully. I fixed my eyes upon the train. It seemed that the whole world was on board, that there could not be one left. Said the angel; ‘They are binding in bundles ready to burn.’ Then he showed me the conductor, who appeared like a stately, fair person, whom all the passengers looked up to and reverenced. I was perplexed and asked my attending angel who it was. He said, ‘It is Satan. He is the conductor in the form of an angel of light. He has taken the world captive. They are given over to strong delusions, to believe a lie, that they may be damned. This agent, the next highest in order to him, is the engineer, and other of his agents are employed in different offices as he may need them, and they are all going with lightning speed to perdition.’" Early Writings pp. 87-88.
Since we have not yet established the biblical teaching on the subjects of soul sleep and annihilation, I will here propose some hypothetical questions to bear in mind for future review. If we find the doctrine of soul sleep to be in error, the quotation above has serious implications regarding the source of this vision. Who is the angel that showed her that the Sabbath was still mandatory for Christians, and who created fears that would cause people to reject the manifestations of the Holy Spirit and to embrace the doctrine of soul sleep? Who would the stately, fair person be whom he is opposing?
http://sogentlybroken.blogspot.in/2008/09/adventist-teaching-on-soul-sleep.html
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L
LAODICEA
YOU SAID: So you believe that there is a lamb in heaven with 7 eyes and 7 horns. Next you will tell me that the dragon with 7 heads is literal.
In the book of Revelation, everything that needs an interpretation the Lord made sure that he provided one for us, by either an Angel, an Elder, or the Lord Himself. Where there is no interpretation given or offered, we can obviously take that scripture literally and accept what the Lord gave us and how he gave it to us. Your problem is that your theology does not agree with the scriptures that are given where the Lord did not provide an interpretation....so you take it upon yourself to provide one when the Lord does not require you to do that. You should allow scripture to shape your theology rather than forcing your theology to shape scripture.
YOU SAID: So you believe that there is a lamb in heaven with 7 eyes and 7 horns. Next you will tell me that the dragon with 7 heads is literal.
In the book of Revelation, everything that needs an interpretation the Lord made sure that he provided one for us, by either an Angel, an Elder, or the Lord Himself. Where there is no interpretation given or offered, we can obviously take that scripture literally and accept what the Lord gave us and how he gave it to us. Your problem is that your theology does not agree with the scriptures that are given where the Lord did not provide an interpretation....so you take it upon yourself to provide one when the Lord does not require you to do that. You should allow scripture to shape your theology rather than forcing your theology to shape scripture.
L
NONSENSE.
But Ellen White might have had it taught.
But Ellen White might have had it taught.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/38967-dead-asleep-18.html#post745775
You people are good at arguing with your own opinion, what about using the Bible for your opinion?
E
Why Would Anyone Follow A False Prophet?
"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in My name,
which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the
name of other gods, even that prophet will die.
And if you say in your heart, How shall we know the word which the
Lord has not spoken?
When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not,
nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken,
but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously."
Deuteronomy 18:20-22
One False Prophecy Makes For A False Prophet.
" Behold, I am against the prophets, said the Lord,
that use their tongues and say, He said.
Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, said the Lord,
and do tell them, and cause My people to err by their lies
and by their lightness; yet I send them not, nor commanded them;
therefore they shall not profit this people at all, said the Lord."
Jeremiah 23:31-32
"...Because you have spoken vain things, and have seen lies,
therefore behold I come against you, said the Lord GOD.
And My hand shall be upon the prophets that see vain things,
and that divine lies."
Ezekiel 13:8-9
"Let not your prophets that are in the midst of you,
and your diviners deceive you...
for they prophesy falsely to you in My name, and I have NOT sent them,
said the Lord."
Jeremiah 29:8-9
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether
they are of GOD; because many false prophets have gone forth
into the world."
1 John 4:1
ELLEN WHITE:
"As the priest, in removing the sins from the sanctuary, confessed them
upon the scapegoat, so Christ will place those sins upon Satan..."
The Great Controversy, Pg 422, 485-486
Mrs White said in May of 1856 that some of those listening to her will live
to see the return of Jesus...
Some of those that were attending a meeting with her would become food
for worms, and some would live to become subjects of the seven last
plagues, and some others would "remain upon the earth to be translated
at the coming of Jesus."
Testimonies for the Church, vol 1, pg 131-132.
"Through an angel messenger the divine warning was conveyed: "If thou
doest well, shalt thou not be accepted.""
Patriarchs and Prophets, pg 74
"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in My name,
which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the
name of other gods, even that prophet will die.
And if you say in your heart, How shall we know the word which the
Lord has not spoken?
When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not,
nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken,
but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously."
Deuteronomy 18:20-22
One False Prophecy Makes For A False Prophet.
" Behold, I am against the prophets, said the Lord,
that use their tongues and say, He said.
Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, said the Lord,
and do tell them, and cause My people to err by their lies
and by their lightness; yet I send them not, nor commanded them;
therefore they shall not profit this people at all, said the Lord."
Jeremiah 23:31-32
"...Because you have spoken vain things, and have seen lies,
therefore behold I come against you, said the Lord GOD.
And My hand shall be upon the prophets that see vain things,
and that divine lies."
Ezekiel 13:8-9
"Let not your prophets that are in the midst of you,
and your diviners deceive you...
for they prophesy falsely to you in My name, and I have NOT sent them,
said the Lord."
Jeremiah 29:8-9
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether
they are of GOD; because many false prophets have gone forth
into the world."
1 John 4:1
ELLEN WHITE:
"As the priest, in removing the sins from the sanctuary, confessed them
upon the scapegoat, so Christ will place those sins upon Satan..."
The Great Controversy, Pg 422, 485-486
Mrs White said in May of 1856 that some of those listening to her will live
to see the return of Jesus...
Some of those that were attending a meeting with her would become food
for worms, and some would live to become subjects of the seven last
plagues, and some others would "remain upon the earth to be translated
at the coming of Jesus."
Testimonies for the Church, vol 1, pg 131-132.
"Through an angel messenger the divine warning was conveyed: "If thou
doest well, shalt thou not be accepted.""
Patriarchs and Prophets, pg 74
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E
Doctrine is based on the Bible and you people have not answered my post.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/38967-dead-asleep-18.html#post745775
You people are good at arguing with your own opinion, what about using the Bible for your opinion?
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/38967-dead-asleep-18.html#post745775
You people are good at arguing with your own opinion, what about using the Bible for your opinion?
The Transfiguration
28Some eight days after these sayings, He took along Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. 29And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. 30And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, 31who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.
Were Moses and Elijah symbolic too....or holograms.
Did The LORD deceive the disciples.
Was a special exception made in this case....
L
Why Would Anyone Follow A False Prophet?
"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in My name,
which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the
name of other gods, even that prophet will die.
And if you say in your heart, How shall we know the word which the
Lord has not spoken?
When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not,
nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken,
but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously."
Deuteronomy 18:20-22
One False Prophecy Makes For A False Prophet.
" Behold, I am against the prophets, said the Lord,
that use their tongues and say, He said.
Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, said the Lord,
and do tell them, and cause My people to err by their lies
and by their lightness; yet I send them not, nor commanded them;
therefore they shall not profit this people at all, said the Lord."
Jeremiah 23:31-32
"...Because you have spoken vain things, and have seen lies,
therefore behold I come against you, said the Lord GOD.
And My hand shall be upon the prophets that see vain things,
and that divine lies."
Ezekiel 13:8-9
"Let not your prophets that are in the midst of you,
and your diviners deceive you...
for they prophesy falsely to you in My name, and I have NOT sent them,
said the Lord."
Jeremiah 29:8-9
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether
they are of GOD; because many false prophets have gone forth
into the world."
1 John 4:1
ELLEN WHITE:
"As the priest, in removing the sins from the sanctuary, confessed them
upon the scapegoat, so Christ will place those sins upon Satan..."
The Great Controversy, Pg 422, 485-486
Mrs White said in May of 1856 that some of those listening to her will live
to see the return of Jesus...
Some of those that were attending a meeting with her would become food
for worms, and some would live to become subjects of the seven last
plagues, and some others would "remain upon the earth to be translated
at the coming of Jesus."
Testimonies for the Church, vol 1, pg 131-132.
"Through an angel messenger the divine warning was conveyed: "If thou
doest well, shalt thou not be accepted.""
Patriarchs and Prophets, pg 74
"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in My name,
which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the
name of other gods, even that prophet will die.
And if you say in your heart, How shall we know the word which the
Lord has not spoken?
When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not,
nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken,
but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously."
Deuteronomy 18:20-22
One False Prophecy Makes For A False Prophet.
" Behold, I am against the prophets, said the Lord,
that use their tongues and say, He said.
Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, said the Lord,
and do tell them, and cause My people to err by their lies
and by their lightness; yet I send them not, nor commanded them;
therefore they shall not profit this people at all, said the Lord."
Jeremiah 23:31-32
"...Because you have spoken vain things, and have seen lies,
therefore behold I come against you, said the Lord GOD.
And My hand shall be upon the prophets that see vain things,
and that divine lies."
Ezekiel 13:8-9
"Let not your prophets that are in the midst of you,
and your diviners deceive you...
for they prophesy falsely to you in My name, and I have NOT sent them,
said the Lord."
Jeremiah 29:8-9
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether
they are of GOD; because many false prophets have gone forth
into the world."
1 John 4:1
ELLEN WHITE:
"As the priest, in removing the sins from the sanctuary, confessed them
upon the scapegoat, so Christ will place those sins upon Satan..."
The Great Controversy, Pg 422, 485-486
Mrs White said in May of 1856 that some of those listening to her will live
to see the return of Jesus...
Some of those that were attending a meeting with her would become food
for worms, and some would live to become subjects of the seven last
plagues, and some others would "remain upon the earth to be translated
at the coming of Jesus."
Testimonies for the Church, vol 1, pg 131-132.
"Through an angel messenger the divine warning was conveyed: "If thou
doest well, shalt thou not be accepted.""
Patriarchs and Prophets, pg 74
L
Luke 9
The Transfiguration
28Some eight days after these sayings, He took along Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. 29And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. 30And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, 31who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.
Were Moses and Elijah symbolic too....or holograms.
Did The LORD deceive the disciples.
Was a special exception made in this case....
The Transfiguration
28Some eight days after these sayings, He took along Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. 29And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. 30And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, 31who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.
Were Moses and Elijah symbolic too....or holograms.
Did The LORD deceive the disciples.
Was a special exception made in this case....
Are you here only for argument? Are you here to prove you are right? Why are you on this thread if you are only going to argue? I asked you to explain the texts I quoted and to give an answer to the questions instead all you do is to argue.
I
laodicea
You Said: This thread is not about the symbols of Revelation so I do not want to get of the subject. You have not answered the questions I asked you in a previous post.
Sure it is, because you posted that the souls crying out under the alter in Revelation is symbolic. I just showed you why it is to be taken literally....because the Lord offered no explanation or interpretation. So since the scripture as is (ONCE AGAIN) blows your theology off the planet....you take it upon yourself to go behind the Lord and decalare that it is symbolic of something and proceed to conjure up an interpretation of your own choosing.
You Also Said: Go to this link The dead are asleep it is a link to a previous post, read and study every verse then tell me how do they match up with the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Use the Bible for your opinion not your own words.
Laodicea...I went to this link like you asked and read everything that you posted. I felt no need to respond to it because what I posted that caused you to put up this link is sufficient and addresses all that you said..I felt no need to re-post my opinion.
You don't get it do you? No matter what you post about the blood and the soul or whatever....no matter how hard you try, or how deeply you commit to it, you will never take away the very many scriptures that clearly shows the spirits of the dead talking, standing, walking, remembering, crying out, and showing emotion. And the Lord Himself gives no interpretation or explanation for any of them....Why is that Laodicea?....Does the Lord truly believe in soul sleep? You should be very ticked with him because He is your worst enemy on this subject....I mean He didn't offer ONE scripture in the entire Bible that says that the soul sleeps at death. Not one shred of evidence that demonstrates in the entire Bible that Abraham and Moses are in a coma like sleep at this very moment, not one in actual form or in parable form, no matter you you say or do will ever change that one Fact.
Your alway's telling me to use the Bible and not my own words....You ever wonder why you alway's say that? You say it because your doctrine does not allow you to accept the simplicity of the Word of God...you can't accept it as it's written because it contradicts your doctrine. You have been trained to search the scriptures to disprove scriptures that the Lord intended for you to accept as is. Me myself...I just post the scripture how it's written and let it speak for itself and you accuse me of using my own words and not scripture? I don't need to post several verses after I post a scripture, because I'm not trying to disprove the Word of God.... When will I get the chance in this debate to say...."Oh no...that scripture is symbolic, that was just a parable,..."Wait a minute, if you would do a cross reference on the meaning of those Greek words you will find that doesn't really mean what it clearly says."
You Said: This thread is not about the symbols of Revelation so I do not want to get of the subject. You have not answered the questions I asked you in a previous post.
Sure it is, because you posted that the souls crying out under the alter in Revelation is symbolic. I just showed you why it is to be taken literally....because the Lord offered no explanation or interpretation. So since the scripture as is (ONCE AGAIN) blows your theology off the planet....you take it upon yourself to go behind the Lord and decalare that it is symbolic of something and proceed to conjure up an interpretation of your own choosing.
You Also Said: Go to this link The dead are asleep it is a link to a previous post, read and study every verse then tell me how do they match up with the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Use the Bible for your opinion not your own words.
Laodicea...I went to this link like you asked and read everything that you posted. I felt no need to respond to it because what I posted that caused you to put up this link is sufficient and addresses all that you said..I felt no need to re-post my opinion.
You don't get it do you? No matter what you post about the blood and the soul or whatever....no matter how hard you try, or how deeply you commit to it, you will never take away the very many scriptures that clearly shows the spirits of the dead talking, standing, walking, remembering, crying out, and showing emotion. And the Lord Himself gives no interpretation or explanation for any of them....Why is that Laodicea?....Does the Lord truly believe in soul sleep? You should be very ticked with him because He is your worst enemy on this subject....I mean He didn't offer ONE scripture in the entire Bible that says that the soul sleeps at death. Not one shred of evidence that demonstrates in the entire Bible that Abraham and Moses are in a coma like sleep at this very moment, not one in actual form or in parable form, no matter you you say or do will ever change that one Fact.
Your alway's telling me to use the Bible and not my own words....You ever wonder why you alway's say that? You say it because your doctrine does not allow you to accept the simplicity of the Word of God...you can't accept it as it's written because it contradicts your doctrine. You have been trained to search the scriptures to disprove scriptures that the Lord intended for you to accept as is. Me myself...I just post the scripture how it's written and let it speak for itself and you accuse me of using my own words and not scripture? I don't need to post several verses after I post a scripture, because I'm not trying to disprove the Word of God.... When will I get the chance in this debate to say...."Oh no...that scripture is symbolic, that was just a parable,..."Wait a minute, if you would do a cross reference on the meaning of those Greek words you will find that doesn't really mean what it clearly says."
I
A-OMEGA
Laodicea said: The Bible tells us that Moses was resurrected.
YOU ASKED LAODICEA: And where is this??? ....
(very good question by the way.)
Laodicea responded: Do a search on Moses in the NT and you will find it
LOL!....Well did you do the search?.... If you did, this is what comes up.
MATTHEW 17
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Can you believe it?...The very scripture that you used to clearly show that Moses is not sleep, Laodicea uses to show that he was resurrected somehow.
The FACT is that this verse and no other verse in the Bible says that Moses was resurrected....The only FACT that can be found here is that Moses is definitely not sleep.
Can't you just hear the soul sleep scholars... "How do we disprove this?...."Moses is is clearly alive here and he should be sleep..."why is he not sleep?"...."Darn it to Heck!"...."Well God must have resurrected him ahead of resurrection day for this occasion."...."But why would God do that?"..."Who cares he does what he want's, we need an explanation here and that's as good as any."
LOL
Laodicea said: The Bible tells us that Moses was resurrected.
YOU ASKED LAODICEA: And where is this??? ....
(very good question by the way.)
Laodicea responded: Do a search on Moses in the NT and you will find it
LOL!....Well did you do the search?.... If you did, this is what comes up.
MATTHEW 17
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Can you believe it?...The very scripture that you used to clearly show that Moses is not sleep, Laodicea uses to show that he was resurrected somehow.
The FACT is that this verse and no other verse in the Bible says that Moses was resurrected....The only FACT that can be found here is that Moses is definitely not sleep.
Can't you just hear the soul sleep scholars... "How do we disprove this?...."Moses is is clearly alive here and he should be sleep..."why is he not sleep?"...."Darn it to Heck!"...."Well God must have resurrected him ahead of resurrection day for this occasion."...."But why would God do that?"..."Who cares he does what he want's, we need an explanation here and that's as good as any."
LOL
C
i dont belive in soul sllep(for the saved) but i must say that the bible does tell moses was raised, 1st god buried him(dueteronomy 34:6) then an angel was sent to get it, but met the devil and they disputed over it(jude 9) and apparently Michael won.
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
I
chesser
YOU SAID: i dont belive in soul sllep(for the saved) but i must say that the bible does tell moses was raised, 1st god buried him(dueteronomy 34:6) then an angel was sent to get it, but met the devil and they disputed over it(jude 9) and apparently Michael won.
Yes that is true...there was a dispute over the body of Moses, but it doesn't say why there was a dispute, and it doesn't even say that it was before or after God burried the body of Moses. To imply that the dispute was over having the body of Moses resurrected or that Michael's mission was to resurrect the body of Moses would be only speculation, because the scripture does not say that Moses body was resurrected or that their was an attempt of a resurrection. All this scripture in Jude tells us is that there was a dispute between Michael and Lucifer for the dead body of Moses....that's it.
YOU SAID: i dont belive in soul sllep(for the saved) but i must say that the bible does tell moses was raised, 1st god buried him(dueteronomy 34:6) then an angel was sent to get it, but met the devil and they disputed over it(jude 9) and apparently Michael won.
Yes that is true...there was a dispute over the body of Moses, but it doesn't say why there was a dispute, and it doesn't even say that it was before or after God burried the body of Moses. To imply that the dispute was over having the body of Moses resurrected or that Michael's mission was to resurrect the body of Moses would be only speculation, because the scripture does not say that Moses body was resurrected or that their was an attempt of a resurrection. All this scripture in Jude tells us is that there was a dispute between Michael and Lucifer for the dead body of Moses....that's it.
E
Are you here only for argument? Are you here to prove you are right? Why are you on this thread if you are only going to argue? I asked you to explain the texts I quoted and to give an answer to the questions instead all you do is to argue.
Luke 9
The Transfiguration
28Some eight days after these sayings, He took along Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray. 29And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. 30And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, 31who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.
I ask again: who are the two men with Jesus.
C
chesser
YOU SAID: i dont belive in soul sllep(for the saved) but i must say that the bible does tell moses was raised, 1st god buried him(dueteronomy 34:6) then an angel was sent to get it, but met the devil and they disputed over it(jude 9) and apparently Michael won.
Yes that is true...there was a dispute over the body of Moses, but it doesn't say why there was a dispute, and it doesn't even say that it was before or after God burried the body of Moses. To imply that the dispute was over having the body of Moses resurrected or that Michael's mission was to resurrect the body of Moses would be only speculation, because the scripture does not say that Moses body was resurrected or that their was an attempt of a resurrection. All this scripture in Jude tells us is that there was a dispute between Michael and Lucifer for the dead body of Moses....that's it.
YOU SAID: i dont belive in soul sllep(for the saved) but i must say that the bible does tell moses was raised, 1st god buried him(dueteronomy 34:6) then an angel was sent to get it, but met the devil and they disputed over it(jude 9) and apparently Michael won.
Yes that is true...there was a dispute over the body of Moses, but it doesn't say why there was a dispute, and it doesn't even say that it was before or after God burried the body of Moses. To imply that the dispute was over having the body of Moses resurrected or that Michael's mission was to resurrect the body of Moses would be only speculation, because the scripture does not say that Moses body was resurrected or that their was an attempt of a resurrection. All this scripture in Jude tells us is that there was a dispute between Michael and Lucifer for the dead body of Moses....that's it.