The dead are asleep

[GreenNnice]

The Bible does not teach eternal torment it is a catholic doctrine which they got from paganism. There is a judgment but, not eternal torment.

These two passages say that The 'judgment' is 'forever and ever.'

Revelation 14

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation

The Dead Are Judged AND forever tormented after theit judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

”Cast ,” or, ”thrown” into the ”lake of fire,” The false prophets, Beast, Devil are (v.10).

”Cast” (or thrown) into The ”lake of fire,” those not found written in the Book Of Life are (v.15)

What does NOT expressly speak of eternal torment not real for those not written in Book of Life?

And, Laod, same words used in verse 10 and 14: forever and ever .

 

[LawofLove]

These two passages say that The 'judgment' is 'forever and ever.'

Revelation 14

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation

The Dead Are Judged AND forever tormented after theit judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

”Cast ,” or, ”thrown” into the ”lake of fire,” The false prophets, Beast, Devil are (v.10).

”Cast” (or thrown) into The ”lake of fire,” those not found written in the Book Of Life are (v.15)

What does NOT expressly speak of eternal torment not real for those not written in Book of Life?

And, Laod, same words used in verse 10 and 14: forever and ever .

For ever and ever. Gr. eis aiōnas aiōnōn, literally, “unto ages of ages.” This expression may be compared with the phrase eis ton aiōna, literally, “unto the age,” generally translated “for ever” (see Matt. 21:19; Mark 3:29; Luke 1:55; etc.), or the phrase eis tous aiōnas, literally, “unto the ages,” also generally translated “for ever” (Luke 1:33; Rom. 1:25; 11:36), or the adjective aiōnios, literally, “age-lasting,” generally translated “eternal,” or “everlasting” (Matt. 18:8; 19:16, 29; 25:41, 46; etc.). Like aiōnios (see on Matt. 25:41), expressions eis ton aiōna and eis tous aiōnas do not necessarily denote endless existence. But, it may be asked, Do not these expressions at times denote perpetuity? If so, should not the compound expression eis aiōnas aiōnōn, “unto ages of ages,” be regarded a more emphatic declaration of perpetuity?
This compound expression occurs elsewhere as eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn, literally, “unto the ages of the ages,” and in every case is connected with God or Christ, and so expresses endless existence. However, this meaning is derived, not from the expression itself, but from that with which it is associated. The expression itself means multiplied ages.
The following is a possible explanation of the use of the compound expression here. The subject matter is the torment of the worshipers of the beast in an inferno of fire and brimstone. The age of a man in such an environment would be very brief, so that if the expression eis ton aiōna, “unto the age,” had been used, it would be possible to conclude that the punishment would be but momentary. The compound expression shows that the torment would be for a certain period, not unending of course, as is evident from other scriptures that show that the final fate of the wicked will be annihilation (see Matt. 10:28; Rev. 20:14).
The figure of the smoke ascending forever is doubtless drawn from Isa. 34:10, where the desolation of Edom is described. That the ancient prophet did not envision unending fires is seen from the fact that following the conflagration, concerning which he says, “The smoke thereof shall go up for ever,” the country becomes a desolate waste inhabited by wild beasts (vs. 10–15). The figure denotes complete destruction. See on Mal. 4:1.Nichol, Francis D.:

 

[GreenNnice]

For ever and ever. Gr. eis aiōnas aiōnōn, literally, “unto ages of ages.” This expression may be compared with the phrase eis ton aiōna, literally, “unto the age,” generally translated “for ever” (see Matt. 21:19; Mark 3:29; Luke 1:55; etc.), or the phrase eis tous aiōnas, literally, “unto the ages,” also generally translated “for ever” (Luke 1:33; Rom. 1:25; 11:36), or the adjective aiōnios, literally, “age-lasting,” generally translated “eternal,” or “everlasting” (Matt. 18:8; 19:16, 29; 25:41, 46; etc.). Like aiōnios (see on Matt. 25:41), expressions eis ton aiōna and eis tous aiōnas do not necessarily denote endless existence. But, it may be asked, Do not these expressions at times denote perpetuity? If so, should not the compound expression eis aiōnas aiōnōn, “unto ages of ages,” be regarded a more emphatic declaration of perpetuity?
This compound expression occurs elsewhere as eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn, literally, “unto the ages of the ages,” and in every case is connected with God or Christ, and so expresses endless existence. However, this meaning is derived, not from the expression itself, but from that with which it is associated. The expression itself means multiplied ages.
The following is a possible explanation of the use of the compound expression here. The subject matter is the torment of the worshipers of the beast in an inferno of fire and brimstone. The age of a man in such an environment would be very brief, so that if the expression eis ton aiōna, “unto the age,” had been used, it would be possible to conclude that the punishment would be but momentary. The compound expression shows that the torment would be for a certain period, not unending of course, as is evident from other scriptures that show that the final fate of the wicked will be annihilation (see Matt. 10:28; Rev. 20:14).
The figure of the smoke ascending forever is doubtless drawn from Isa. 34:10, where the desolation of Edom is described. That the ancient prophet did not envision unending fires is seen from the fact that following the conflagration, concerning which he says, “The smoke thereof shall go up for ever,” the country becomes a desolate waste inhabited by wild beasts (vs. 10–15). The figure denotes complete destruction. See on Mal. 4:1.Nichol, Francis D.:

The dead's physical bodies are no longer with them, they are 'spirit' at the judgment and they will be quite capable of surviving in lake of fire IF God says it is so. God is just, as, He says, He forewarns EVERYONE of the reality of Hell, especially through father Abraham in Luke 16 parable of Lazarus and the rich man.


As you think 'forever and ever' means just a multiple of not endless time, lol, what about the word 'torment.' Are we then like you say, only alive until we hit the fire in a human state of corruptible being ??
What about 'that' word? 'Torment' sure can't mean quick death, can it?


But, according to you , 'forever and ever' does not really mean eternal . It means temporary.

 

[Laodicea]

The dead's physical bodies are no longer with them, they are 'spirit' at the judgment and they will be quite capable of surviving in lake of fire IF God says it is so. God is just, as, He says, He forewarns EVERYONE of the reality of Hell, especially through father Abraham in Luke 16 parable of Lazarus and the rich man.


As you think 'forever and ever' means just a multiple of not endless time, lol, what about the word 'torment.' Are we then like you say, only alive until we hit the fire in a human state of corruptible being ??
What about 'that' word? 'Torment' sure can't mean quick death, can it?


But, according to you , 'forever and ever' does not really mean eternal . It means temporary.

You are ignoring the Bible when the soul of a person is in the blood. No blood = No soul

 

[GreenNnice]

You are ignoring the Bible when the soul of a person is in the blood. No blood = No soul

Man became a living being when God breathed life into him, not until God breathed life into him; we, therefore, know, laod, that man was WITH flesh and blood before God breathed life into man. Man only became a living being after this breathy act unto man's mouth by God.

So, no breath=no soul, per Genesis 2:7 . The soul does not become whole by flesh and,blood but by breath breathed in to the man, this individualness of BREATH, laod, makes man a living, breathing soul.

 

[Laodicea]

Man became a living being when God breathed life into him, not until God breathed life into him; we, therefore, know, laod, that man was WITH flesh and blood before God breathed life into man. Man only became a living being after this breathy act unto man's mouth by God.

So, no breath=no soul, per Genesis 2:7 . The soul does not become whole by flesh and,blood but by breath breathed in to the man, this individualness of BREATH, laod, makes man a living, breathing soul.

Without the breath of life from God the blood will not flow so no soul

 

[A-Omega]

Without the breath of life from God the blood will not flow so no soul

So I suppose demons have flesh and blood now? Demons are disembodied spirits and yet they are fully conscious, can speak, recognize Jesus, etc...

This soul sleep argument is just extremely weak. Namely because it does not come from the Bible.

 

[Laodicea]

So I suppose demons have flesh and blood now? Demons are disembodied spirits and yet they are fully conscious, can speak, recognize Jesus, etc...

This soul sleep argument is just extremely weak. Namely because it does not come from the Bible.

You have not answered my questions

According to what you think it is literal. You have given nothing but your own opinion and have not used the Bible to show it is literal. What about the 4 horses are they literal or symbolic? The Lamb in 6:1 is that a literal Lamb or symbolic? What about 5:6 the lamb with 7 horns and 7 eyes is that literal or symbolic? What about the 4 beasts in 4:7 are they literal or symbolic?

 

[edward99]

When we are asleep we have no knowledge of the world around us we do not know anything, hous can pass in what seems like a monent. SInce the BIble calls death a sleep then they who have fallen asleep in death do not know anything.

THEN WHO ARE THESE

Revelation 6
The Fifth Seal—Martyrs

9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

 

[Laodicea]

THEN WHO ARE THESE

Revelation 6
The Fifth Seal—Martyrs

9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

It is symbolic not literal

 

[A-Omega]

You have not answered my questions

According to what you think it is literal. You have given nothing but your own opinion and have not used the Bible to show it is literal. What about the 4 horses are they literal or symbolic? The Lamb in 6:1 is that a literal Lamb or symbolic? What about 5:6 the lamb with 7 horns and 7 eyes is that literal or symbolic? What about the 4 beasts in 4:7 are they literal or symbolic?

Of course it's all literal.




The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

This is a record of the things that John saw as revealed from Jesus Christ The Lord. I am a total loss as to why this is so difficult to understand. John recorded everything he saw and was told and wrote it down in a book as all Biblical authors have done. If what he wrote does not make sense to you, then pray for wisdom but do not presume or put your own version of what was going on into the text and say John saw other things but chose to represent them through symbols or paraphrased or wrote in code or other bizarre and unsubstantiated readings of Scripture.

Thus when he saw the souls of martyrs who were slain for their testimony, it is not symbolic. He really saw them. And they are fully conscious. Just as the disembodied spirits of demons are. Just as the rich man and Lazarus were in the account given by Jesus. There is no debate here. We clearly see examples of the dead being conscious and self-aware.

 

[lavzsmiles]

It is obvious from I Thessalonians 4 that these scripture references are referring to the body and not the spirit. Christ will "bring them with Him" (the spirits of the redeemed who have died) when HE returns for the Resurrection, and the bodies which have slept will be resurrected and reunited with the spirit which is already with the LORD!

II Corinthians 5:6-8 " Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight— 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. 1995 (2 Co 5:6–8). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation."

Philippians 1:21-24 "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake."
New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. 1995 (Php 1:21–24). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation."

I Thessalonians 4:13-18 " But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words."
New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. 1995 (1 Th 4:13–18). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."
New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. 1995 (Ec 12:7). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation."

 

[chesser]

The Bible does not teach eternal torment it is a catholic doctrine which they got from paganism. There is a judgment but, not eternal torment.

im going to have to say it teaches eternal torment...at least for the devil(and maybe his angels)(revelations20:10). human unbelivers however, its clear that their turned to ashes(malachi 4:3), slain,(isaiah66:16), and both body and soul are destroyed(matthew 10:28).

 

[A-Omega]

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.


Whats going on here? How is Moses there?

 

[IMINJC]

LAODICEA


YOU SAID: Telling people about eternal torment is not a good witnessing tool.


Jesus obviously didn't get that memo....

JESUS OWN WORDS

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Dont you wish you had Jesus own words saying that the soul sleeps at death?

 

[Laodicea]

LAODICEA


YOU SAID: Telling people about eternal torment is not a good witnessing tool.


Jesus obviously didn't get that memo....

JESUS OWN WORDS

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Dont you wish you had Jesus own words saying that the soul sleeps at death?

Jesus parable was aimed at the Pharisees

 

[Laodicea]

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.


Whats going on here? How is Moses there?

The Bible tells us that Moses was resurrected.

 

[Laodicea]

im going to have to say it teaches eternal torment...at least for the devil(and maybe his angels)(revelations20:10). human unbelivers however, its clear that their turned to ashes(malachi 4:3), slain,(isaiah66:16), and both body and soul are destroyed(matthew 10:28).

LawofLove already gave a post explaining for ever

 

[Closemyeyes2cU]

The Bible tells us that Moses was resurrected.

Where does the Bible say this?

 

[Laodicea]

Of course it's all literal.




The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

This is a record of the things that John saw as revealed from Jesus Christ The Lord. I am a total loss as to why this is so difficult to understand. John recorded everything he saw and was told and wrote it down in a book as all Biblical authors have done. If what he wrote does not make sense to you, then pray for wisdom but do not presume or put your own version of what was going on into the text and say John saw other things but chose to represent them through symbols or paraphrased or wrote in code or other bizarre and unsubstantiated readings of Scripture.

Thus when he saw the souls of martyrs who were slain for their testimony, it is not symbolic. He really saw them. And they are fully conscious. Just as the disembodied spirits of demons are. Just as the rich man and Lazarus were in the account given by Jesus. There is no debate here. We clearly see examples of the dead being conscious and self-aware.

So you believe that there is a lamb in heaven with 7 eyes and 7 horns. Next you will tell me that the dragon with 7 heads is literal.