Fallacies of the Present Day Church

[Red33]

No one will be condemned for personal sin. Jesus said himself, People are condemned for one thing and one thing only. They have not believed in the only name of the son of God.

Your doctrine is destroyed by the fact God said there can be NO FORGIVENESS with out the SHEDDING OF BLOOD. This, if Christ ONLY paid for previous or past sin. ALL FUTURE SIN WILL CONDEMN US, Because there is no more sacrifice. For those sins to be forgiven, Christ would have to return and die all over again for the sins he missed the first time.

Excellent points and soooooooo good to hear on this site. He won't receive it at this time, but it has been given to him many times over by you and others with love and grace and even some abrasiveness from me.

 

[psychomom]

Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy. (Proverbs 27:6)

 

[Abiding]

Ill say again there is some merit(iagreed almost with 10%) in the OP
There is a doctrine of demons that uses osas and will never see the Kingdom of God.

But!!!

Dont be this guy trying to help with another false doctrine

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tyvhq7uhTM[/video]

 

[starfield]

No it does not. Scripture states he came to remove not only the sin of those who are his, but the sin of the whole world.

Correct. Christ died to take away the sins of the world but condemnation awaits those that reject His salvation.

At the final judgment, No one is judged for sin, they are judged according to their works.

Read above, No one will be condemned for personal sin. Jesus said himself, People are condemned for one thing and one thing only. They have not believed in the only name of the son of God.

The bible speaks a lot about condemnation because of sin. If a believer decides that since Christ paid it all, they can live a licentious life, they are heaping wrath upon themselves. Sin defiles the garment of righteousness and brings condemnation.

Your doctrine is destroyed by the fact God said there can be NO FORGIVENESS with out the SHEDDING OF BLOOD. This, if Christ ONLY paid for previous or past sin. ALL FUTURE SIN WILL CONDEMN US, Because there is no more sacrifice. For those sins to be forgiven, Christ would have to return and die all over again for the sins he missed the first time.

I don't know of anywhere in the bible that state that future sins are forgiven in advance. It is rather a dangerous presupposition made by people who do not want to take responsibility for their actions, people that condescend to "we can't stop sinning", people who wish to deliberately sin and be saved. Was the purpose of Christ death to forgive us in advance so as to give us the liberty to continue sinning?
Instead of the bible saying future sins are pre-forgiven, it says that we are to rid ourselves of sin, put off the old man, walk after the Spirit, be separate from the world, and mortify the deeds of the flesh. Would there be need for these statements if your future sins are also forgiven at initial conversion?

Even if a Christian committhe most heinous offense or deny Christ, those sins will not be held against them since they have been pre-forgiven too, right?

1 John 2:1- My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
A Christian won't need an advocate when they sin if sins are pre-forgiven.

"Pre-forgiveness of sins", "once saved always saved no matter what kind of life you live afterward", "God does not see a Christian's sins but only Christ's righteousness in them", if all these statements are true why did God criticize the churches in Revelation for their sins? God clearly saw their sins.
I think if they were pre-forgiven God would not have said this: "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent" (Rev 2:5).

Asking for forgiveness of the sins you commit after your salvation experience is not putting Christ back on the cross. His blood is always available and sufficient to atone for our sins. This is the liberty we have in His precious sacrifice.

 

[unclefester]

You have a complete misunderstanding of what the Bible plainly teaches.

The reason that "by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified" is because the law once broken can only bring death.

You miss my point ... which was what the law came to do.

“What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin.” (Romans 7:7, ESV).

“Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.” (Romans 7:13-14, ESV).

I would agree that the law once broken can only bring death. Be honest with me ... and all here. Have you broken the law even once after being saved ? Seems to me that this is why you need to place sin into your two categories of "willful sin" ... and "sins of ignorance". Would I be correct in assuming that you, if you have sinned at all since salvation have only sinned sins of ignorance ? And if so, how would you even know you had committed such a sin if it was done in ignorance ? Does God convict you afterwards ... but then say ... "It's alright pal ... I know it wasn't your fault" ? Sorry Skinski7 .... I'm not buying what you're selling.

 

[Skinski7]

You miss my point ... which was what the law came to do.

“What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin.” (Romans 7:7, ESV).

“Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.” (Romans 7:13-14, ESV).

I would agree that the law once broken can only bring death. Be honest with me ... and all here. Have you broken the law even once after being saved ? Seems to me that this is why you need to place sin into your two categories of "willful sin" ... and "sins of ignorance". Would I be correct in assuming that you, if you have sinned at all since salvation have only sinned sins of ignorance ? And if so, how would you even know you had committed such a sin if it was done in ignorance ? Does God convict you afterwards ... but then say ... "It's alright pal ... I know it wasn't your fault" ? Sorry Skinski7 .... I'm not buying what you're selling.

I'm not selling anything, I'm telling you how it is. You need to reconsider what you believe. When you state that I am in error for discerning that there is indeed a difference between willful sin and non-willful sin you are speaking against the clear teachings of Scripture.

The Bible clearly teaches that there is a difference between presumptuous (willful) sin and non-presumptuous (ignorant) sin.

Sins of Ignorance Under the Old Covenant

Num 15:22 And if ye have erred, and not observed all these commandments, which the LORD hath spoken unto Moses,
Num 15:23 Even all that the LORD hath commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day that the LORD commanded Moses, and henceforward among your generations;
Num 15:24 Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.
Num 15:25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:
Num 15:26 And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance.
Num 15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
Num 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
Num 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

Willful Sin Under the Old Covenant

Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.
Num 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
Num 15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
Num 15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
Num 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
Num 15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.



Willful Sin Under the New Covenant

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?



There was no sacrifice in the Old Testament for willful sin and there is none in the new. This is what the Bible clearly teaches, whether one rejects the truth or not does not make the truth disappear. The only reason I can think of why people would reject this truth is because they want to be forgiven while they remain in their sins.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.



Willful sin for a true born again Christian is out of the question.

I recommend reading what Tertullian taught on repentance for this man expounded on the subject in great detail and speaks the truth.

Tertullian on Repentance
CHURCH FATHERS: On Repentance (Tertullian)

For what I say is this, that the repentance which, being shown us and commanded us through God's grace, recalls us to grace with the Lord, when once learned and undertaken by us ought never afterward to be cancelled by repetition of sin. No pretext of ignorance now remains to plead on your behalf; in that, after acknowledging the Lord, and accepting His precepts — in short, after engaging in repentance of (past) sins— you again betake yourself to sins. Thus, in as far as you are removed from ignorance, in so far are you cemented to contumacy. For if the ground on which you had repented of having sinned was that you had begun to fear the Lord, why have you preferred to rescind what you did for fear's sake, except because you have ceased to fear? For there is no other thing but contumacy which subverts fear.

Such words would be deemed heresy if spoken of in an apostate church building today. There is no quicker way to get kicked out of a church building that earnestly contend for the truth that ALL willful sin must stop in repentance.

Here is a good paper which discusses the Shepherd of Hermes in the context of the debate in the early church as to whether a second repentance was possible.

http://www.churchhistory101.com/docs/Hermas-2ndRepentance.pdf

Notice though that the early church was unanimous in teaching that all willful sin had ceased in the life of a Christian. Therefore they did not debate whether one could willfully sin and remain justified, no, they had no disagreement over the fact that willful sin was out of the question, the debate was in regards to whether a Christian who committed willful sin was able to truly repent and be forgiven again.

The early church preached an entirely different Gospel message than what is commonly preached today and thus their attitude in regards to sin was completely different.

1Joh 2:1 is clearly in the context of sin done in ignorance and not that of willful transgression.

1Joh 3 clearly implies that Christian's CANNOT SIN lest they cast the seed within out and go back to their former rebellion. He who sins is of the devil and he who does what is right is righteous is what John taught.

Jesus taught that if you sin you are a slave to sin. Jesus came to set sinners free from this deplorable state of bondage.

Paul taught that you are a slave to whom you yield yourself, whether sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. Yielding is done willfully and thus the implication is willful sin. Obedience is done willfully thus the implication is willful obedience.

Rom 6:17 speaks of those who had come to the faith as having "obeyed from the heart that former doctrine once delivered." It is impossible to obey God from the heart and willfully disobey God at the same time. To believe so is to believe one can serve two masters.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Correct. Christ died to take away the sins of the world but condemnation awaits those that reject His salvation.
The bible speaks a lot about condemnation because of sin. If a believer decides that since Christ paid it all, they can live a licentious life, they are heaping wrath upon themselves. [/quote]

I agree 100 % here. but will add. the believer that says he can live a licentious life is a believer in name only. He never repented, and never had true faith (his faith was dead) thus he was never saved. so he is an impostor and not a true child of God.

I don't know of anywhere in the bible that state that future sins are forgiven in advance. It is rather a dangerous presupposition made by people who do not want to take responsibility for their actions, people that condescend to "we can't stop sinning", people who wish to deliberately sin and be saved.

Was the purpose of Christ death to forgive us in advance so as to give us the liberty to continue sinning?

Now your confusing me.

How can eternal life be eternal if God did not already forgive future sin to begin with? he could not say you will never hunger, never thirst, never die, never be cast out. and assure you he will raise you on the last day unless one of two things happen.

1. He makes you sinless the moment you come to him
2. He has already forgiven future sin in advance.

You say it does not say it. but it does. I As I showed in my John thread.

Instead of the bible saying future sins are pre-forgiven, it says

that we are to rid ourselves of sin, put off the old man, walk after the Spirit, be separate from the world, and mortify the deeds of the flesh. Would there be need for these statements if your future sins are also forgiven at initial conversion?

Would there be needs of these sayings if we automatically could do them after we are saved? He is telling us because he did not remove the flesh. We as babes in Christ have to learn as a baby has to learn. To trust our parent who is telling us things to not hurt us, And give us a better life. When you was a child. did you not go against your father many times? and how many of those times did you go against your father and LEARN he was right? and it was stupid for you to go against him? Your father was not perfect. I am sure he kept some things from you which were wrong. but for the most part. unless he was an evil man, he would have been right saying no. And most importantly, did your father kick you out of his family when you sinned against him?

Is not our father in heaven perfect? will there not be times we chose our flesh and in doing so, LEARN God was right in the first place? So why would he kick you out, when your own earthly father won;t, when Gods love surpasses your earthly fathers ability to love 1000 fold??

Even

if a Christian committhe most heinous offense or deny Christ, those sins will not be held against them since they have been pre-forgiven too, right?

1 John 2:1- My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
A Christian won't need an advocate when they sin if sins are pre-forgiven.

"Pre-forgiveness of sins", "once saved always saved no matter what kind of life you live afterward", "God does not see a Christian's sins but only Christ's righteousness in them", if all these statements are true why did God criticize the churches in Revelation for their sins? God clearly saw their sins.
I think if they were pre-forgiven God would not have said this: "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent" (Rev 2:5).

Asking for forgiveness of the sins you commit after your salvation experience is not putting Christ back on the cross. His blood is always available and sufficient to atone for our sins. This is the liberty we have in His precious sacrifice.

he offered eternal life. Not conditional life. If we do not recieve ALL that God promised the MOMENT we place our faiht in him, God is a liar and a thief. If you only knew you are buying into th elie of satan, who comes as an angel of light (this what he says SOUNDS GOOD, AND REASONABLE) but is a lie that will keep many from the truth of Gods love.

Stan wants to PROVE God is not a God of love, and will not keep his promises. You are helping satan in his quest to prove that very thing.

 

[starfield]

I agree 100 % here. but will add. the believer that says he can live a licentious life is a believer in name only. He never repented, and never had true faith (his faith was dead) thus he was never saved. so he is an impostor and not a true child of God.

Yes that's a possibility .

Now your confusing me.

How can eternal life be eternal if God did not already forgive future sin to begin with?

Forgiveness in advance is a license to sin. Even though Jesus died for all sins, unrepentant sin defiles a believer and will disqualify them from entering the kingdom of God.
If a judge grants pardon for a criminal conviction, do they also automatically grant pardon for possible future offenses? What is the implication if such is done? That the criminal can continue such acts, of course.
What effect do you think this pre-forgiveness doctrine will have on a new believer? What impression are you giving a babe in Christ? That Christians are allowed to continue in sin and be saved at the same time.
I would stay away from teachings that allows a person to continue in sin or gives the impression that willful sinning in the life of Christians is a normal Christian experience.
Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: Ah-ha! The sin of having an unforgiving spirit is not pre-forgiven for if it has been forgiven in advance the condition would not be that you have to forgive others before you can be forgiven by God.

Would there be needs of these sayings if we automatically could do them after we are saved? He is telling us because he did not remove the flesh. We as babes in Christ have to learn as a baby has to learn. To trust our parent who is telling us things to not hurt us, And give us a better life. When you was a child. did you not go against your father many times? and how many of those times did you go against your father and LEARN he was right? and it was stupid for you to go against him? Your father was not perfect. I am sure he kept some things from you which were wrong. but for the most part. unless he was an evil man, he would have been right saying no. And most importantly, did your father kick you out of his family when you sinned against him? Is not our father in heaven perfect? will there not be times we chose our flesh and in doing so, LEARN God was right in the first place? So why would he kick you out, when your own earthly father won;t, when Gods love surpasses your earthly fathers ability to love 1000 fold??

My father never gave me the impression that I was forgiven in advance for future offenses, rather I obeyed him out of love and when I disobeyed, I was disciplined because of love.We obey our Heavenly Father because we are His own.He will not disown them right now but a time will come when they will be disowned for their wicked ways, the time will come when He will say I never knew you. The Lord is patient and His arms of mercy are still wide open. If the prodigal son was still out and about frolicking, would he have ever receive any favor from his father? He had to repent and return to the father before he could benefit from what the father had.If a Christian continues in carnality, judgment is awaiting.The door of grace is always open so we should humble ourselves and seek for forgiveness when we offend God. Let us find help from the Father in times of need rather than assuming future sins are forgiven in advance so we do not have to repent of them.

he offered eternal life. Not conditional life. If we do not recieve ALL that God promised the MOMENT we place our faiht in him, God is a liar and a thief. If you only knew you are buying into th elie of satan, who comes as an angel of light (this what he says SOUNDS GOOD, AND REASONABLE) but is a lie that will keep many from the truth of Gods love.

Stan wants to PROVE God is not a God of love, and will not keep his promises. You are helping satan in his quest to prove that very thing.

God provides everything for us the question is, are we ready to receive them? He enables you to grow in the faith through the Holy Spirit, He promised to sanctify and circumcise our hearts, and conform us to the image of Christ, all these are promised to us.
The only lie Satan is propagating to keep people from the truth of God's love is that believers can live like him and have eternal life. He told Adam and Eve the same but the God said and is still saying the opposite. He knows that sin hinders our relationship with God, yet he's saying otherwise.
Since we are forgiven in advance, holiness, sanctification, and obedience is all optional for the Christian. That’s what some have turned the gospel message to be.
The carnal mind is enmity against God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes that's a possibility .

james says it is reality, faith without works is dead, without faith there is no salvation.

Forgiveness in advance is a license to sin.

it is? did your father forgive you in advance as his daughter? or did he say he was going to kick you out of his family if you did not obey him?

Your father bore you, You had nothing to do with your birth. you were born of blood, was your right to be called his daughter dependent on your ability to do what he told you?

Your father forgave you in advance because he knew you would not perfect. Now it does not mean he did not chasten you when you walked contrary,

There is no difference with our heavenly father. he forgives us because he know we will not be perfect. But it does not mean we will not be chastened. Saying pre-forgiveness is a license to sin does not make sense. It comes from love. He loved us before we were his enemy, How much more does he love us when we are his children. Saying pre-forgiveness is a license to sin is like saying Gods love is greater when we were his enemy than when we were made his children. which makes no sense.

Even though Jesus died for all sins, unrepentant sin defiles a believer and will disqualify them from entering the kingdom of God.

So your saying we can sin sins we do not agree are sin? this does not make sense. If we do not agree they are sin, we have more issues than worrying about if we will lose our salvation. I would wonder if we have repented and are saved at all.

If a judge grants pardon for a criminal conviction, do they also automatically grant pardon for possible future offenses? What is the implication if such is done? That the criminal can continue such acts, of course.
What effect do you think this pre-forgiveness doctrine will have on a new believer? What impression are you giving a babe in Christ? That Christians are allowed to continue in sin and be saved at the same time.

1. Jesus said ALL sin WILL be forgiven men. he said we are justified by faith in him. Not by being good. Where do you get this be good doctrine?

2. What do I think pre-forgiveness offers a new believer? A father in heaven who loves him knowing he will not be perfect. Knowing he will struggle, but in struggling and trial, the new believers learns to trust God more, and know more of his true love for him as a child.

3. Allowed to continue in sin? who said that? A licentious gospel is no gospel it all. it is from the devil. John said those who are born of God can not continue in sin. It does not say they will be perfect. Your still trying to be saved by law. When the law shows your need of a savior. it cant save you!

4. What do you think your telling a new believer when you say if they do not stop sin now and be perfect, the grace and Love God showed you to saved you will be taken away and you will be kicked out of his family? there is no hope there. only fearful expectation which will eventually lead him to walk away, when he realizes, why bother, I can;t do what I am told I am required to do. so why keep trying. I am just a failure (which I have seen MANY MANY TIMES.) either that, or I see a proud religious man who thinks he is holy and righteous., who condemn everyone else for their sins, But refuse to acknowledge the sin they have knowing they would be a hypocrite, or just plain blind to their own sin, and because of it, unable to grow in the love of Christ.

your belief is far more damaging and dangerous to new believers than mine is my friend.

I would stay away from teachings that allows a person to continue in sin or gives the impression that willful sinning in the life of Christians is a normal Christian experience.

So instead we allow people to excuse their own sin by saying it was not willful sin? or lie to themselves and say they no longer sin? or be hypocrites by judging others for sin, when they hide their own sin because they are afraid of being found out?

I grew up in your legalism, There is nothing about it which shows of God.

Matthew 6:14

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: Ah-ha! The sin of having an unforgiving spirit is not pre-forgiven for if it has been forgiven in advance the condition would not be that you have to forgive others before you can be forgiven by God.

My father never gave me the impression that I was forgiven in advance for future offenses, rather I obeyed him out of love and when I disobeyed, I was disciplined because of love.We obey our Heavenly Father because we are His own.He will not disown them right now but a time will come when they will be disowned for their wicked ways, the time will come when He will say I never knew you.

you just contradicted yourself. And made God out to be a liar.

How can God say he never knew you when you were his son or daughter and had a relationship with him?

And your telling me that if you sinned enough, your father would kick you out of his family and deny you and say he never knew you? Your father is not a very loving man.

The Lord is patient and His arms of mercy are still wide open. If the prodigal son was still out and about frolicking, would he have ever receive any favor from his father? He had to repent and return to the father before he could benefit from what the father had.

More importantly, did he ever stop being the fathers son? if the guy would have died, his father would have went to get him, do you think the father would let him rot in the world, and not bring him back to his house to bury him with his family?

Jesus said I know my sheep. if they go astray, I leave the whole flock to get my lost sheep, and I BRING HIM BACK. Do you think God is going to fail?

If a Christian continues in carnality, judgment is awaiting.

The door of grace is always open so we should humble ourselves and seek for forgiveness when we offend God. Let us find help from the Father in times of need rather than assuming future sins are forgiven in advance so we do not have to repent of them.

A christian is unable to live in carnality.

1. he is born of God
2. he has the HS in him
3. He will be chastened back to reality, as your father chastened you as a child
4. His guilt will not allow him to.

one of the amazing things about being a child of God. before I was a child. i sinned but felt no guilt. After I was saved, when I sin, the guilt is so sever, I can;t stand it. maybe you have never felt this?

God provides everything for us the question is, are we ready to receive them? He enables you to grow in the faith through the Holy Spirit, He promised to sanctify and circumcise our hearts, and conform us to the image of Christ, all these are promised to us.

The only lie Satan is propagating to keep people from the truth of God's love is that believers can live like him and have eternal life. He told Adam and Eve the same but the God said and is still saying the opposite. He knows that sin hinders our relationship with God, yet he's saying otherwise.
Since we are forgiven in advance, holiness, sanctification, and obedience is all optional for the Christian. That’s what some have turned the gospel message to be.
The carnal mind is enmity against God.

Nope, as I have said a licentious gospel is in error. and is just as dangerous and in error as the gospel of works you are teaching.

Jesus said he gave us eternal life, We will never die, We will never hunger or thirst, We will live forever. You state this is true by saying we can recieve these things Jesus promised by faith, and lose them once we already have them, thus never is not never, and forever does not mean forever. You make God a hypocrite, and a deciever saying he will give you things if you just trust him, but take them back when you do not do what he tells you to do (have a tempertantrum) this is not a god of love, this is the gos satan wants you to believe he is.

You call him a liar. this alone should show you you do not speak for God but from satan.

 

[Abiding]

we are not to use philosophy as in: future forgiveness
is a license for future sin...we just cant do that
sorry to say we just have to stick to the word as written
there ty

 

[Skinski7]

it is? did your father forgive you in advance as his daughter? or did he say he was going to kick you out of his family if you did not obey him?

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Your father bore you, You had nothing to do with your birth. you were born of blood, was your right to be called his daughter dependent on your ability to do what he told you?

Your father forgave you in advance because he knew you would not perfect. Now it does not mean he did not chasten you when you walked contrary,

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

There is no difference with our heavenly father. he forgives us because he know we will not be perfect. But it does not mean we will not be chastened. Saying pre-forgiveness is a license to sin does not make sense. It comes from love. He loved us before we were his enemy, How much more does he love us when we are his children. Saying pre-forgiveness is a license to sin is like saying Gods love is greater when we were his enemy than when we were made his children. which makes no sense.

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

1. Jesus said ALL sin WILL be forgiven men. he said we are justified by faith in him. Not by being good. Where do you get this be good doctrine?

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

2. What do I think pre-forgiveness offers a new believer? A father in heaven who loves him knowing he will not be perfect. Knowing he will struggle, but in struggling and trial, the new believers learns to trust God more, and know more of his true love for him as a child.

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

3. Allowed to continue in sin? who said that? A licentious gospel is no gospel it all. it is from the devil. John said those who are born of God can not continue in sin. It does not say they will be perfect. Your still trying to be saved by law. When the law shows your need of a savior. it cant save you!

How many sins did it take to disqualify Adam and Eve?

ONE SIN!!!

Yet you teach that YOU CAN SIN AND NOT SURELY DIE just so long as you don't continue in it. Therefore you teach that you can get away with occasional sinning. Perhaps a child molester can molest a child only once year instead of every week before he was a Christian right?

A serial killer can get saved and then he can just murder occasionally huh? When he murders God will discipline him right but his salvation is not in danger, as long as he doesn't "continue" to kill right?

Come on how can anyone seriously believe such nonsense?

This is why the churches are full of sin because people believe they can sin and remain in a saved state. The truth is that most if not all of these people were NEVER saved in the first place because they NEVER forsook their rebellion. Perhaps they SIN LESS but they never FORSOOK THEIR SIN.

Satan doesn't care if you sin once a week or once a year. Both will keep you out of the kingdom. This is why Satan has crafted a false gospel which makes an allowance for sin. It is deadly heresy and is putting multitudes of people into hell.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

ONE SIN!!!

The only recourse for willful sin is a genuine broken repentance and the crisis it brings in the soul which makes it possible for an individual to FORSAKE their rebellion to God. You CANNOT approach God in any other fashion. Jesus said you must REPENT or PERISH.

Repentance IS NOT simply saying sorry. There is worldly sorrow and godly sorrow. Worldly sorrow leads to death while godly sorrow works a genuine repentance experience. Willful sin is completely forsaken through the process of godly sorrow and broken repentance because the ROOT OF REBELLION in the soul is destroyed.

This is why Paul taught that the "body of sin" is DESTROYED when the "old man is crucified." You cannot enter into kingdom with the old man still alive.

It is a strait gate and narrow way and you must STRIVE to enter into it. You must be serious. Repentance is not this Sunday morning shed a few tears and accept Jesus business which they teach today. These people only superficially change yet still remain in bondage to their sin. They still love the world. It is so evident to anyone who just honestly looks at it.

4. What do you think your telling a new believer when you say if they do not stop sin now and be perfect, the grace and Love God showed you to saved you will be taken away and you will be kicked out of his family?

One of your fallacies is that you connect "stopping sin" with "perfection." Stopping sin does not equal perfection. Stopping sin is simply the end of rebellion to God that one may go on to be perfected.

By connecting "stopping sin" with "perfection" you foster the false paradigm necessary whereby someone is more inclined to accept your deceptive "do nothing and trust in Jesus" message.

All willful sin MUST STOP because one CANNOT "receive" the implanted word and "reject" it at the same time. You teach that one can receive and reject it at the same time.

You teach that you CAN be double-minded and SERVE two masters.

Paul taught that you are a slave to whom YOU OBEY. Whether it is sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness.

You don't believe what Paul taught.

Jesus said "GO AN SIN NO MORE!" and you teach "WE CAN'T" thus calling Jesus a liar for giving a command that was impossible. Jesus said if you love Him you will KEEP His commandments yet you say that "We CAN'T" keep His commandments. Thus your false satanic doctrine forces you to imply Jesus is a liar because no-one can love Him because no-one can keep His commandments.

What you believe is a farce and falls apart when examined in the light of Scripture.

You constantly use RHETORIC to prove your points but you NEVER connect scripture together. You might make an allusion to one verse like 1Joh 1:8 but you never reveal context you just twist it like the false teachers you love and adore.

You conscience may be seared beyond hope, I don't know, but people who teach what you do need to be called to account and the strongholds which lie at the root of what you believe must be exposed.

 

[Abiding]

Oh phoey EG never said any of that skinski.
Only you say he said that.

 

[Skinski7]

Oh phoey EG never said any of that skinski.
Only you say he said that.

You must be as blind as he is then.

EG states categorically that a Christian WILL NOT be judged for the sins they commit because Jesus paid for them all already.

EG constantly argues in favour of sin but dresses it up with "you shouldn't" but never "you cannot" thus implying that "you shoudn't but you can."

He teaches that "if you do" then God will just "chastise you" yet your "salvation remains secure" because it is a "free gift of God" which God "will not take back." He will use foolish rhetoric like "eternal life is eternal" thus if you could "lose it" it would not be "eternal."

EG believes a Christian can commit sin as long as it is not a "lifestyle" or "habitual" but what does that mean? It means you CAN SIN occasionally. Who defines what habitual sin is? Once a week? Once a year? Once a decade?

No, rebellion is rebellion and a single act will spiritually kill you. When Peter wrote of sin ceasing in 1Pet 4:1-2 he meant what he said by CEASE which means STOP.

Jesus said "Go and sin no more" He did not say "Go and sin less" or "try and sin no more." No Jesus said "STOP SINNING."

If you reject that message then you are in the clutches of the error of the wicked and knoweth not that you are poor, blind and naked.

 

[Abiding]

You must be as blind as he is then.

EG states categorically that a Christian WILL NOT be judged for the sins they commit because Jesus paid for them all already.

EG constantly argues in favour of sin but dresses it up with "you shouldn't" but never "you cannot" thus implying that "you shoudn't but you can."

He teaches that "if you do" then God will just "chastise you" yet your "salvation remains secure" because it is a "free gift of God" which God "will not take back." He will use foolish rhetoric like "eternal life is eternal" thus if you could "lose it" it would not be "eternal."

EG believes a Christian can commit sin as long as it is not a "lifestyle" or "habitual" but what does that mean? It means you CAN SIN occasionally. Who defines what habitual sin is? Once a week? Once a year? Once a decade?

No, rebellion is rebellion and a single act will spiritually kill you. When Peter wrote of sin ceasing in 1Pet 4:1-2 he meant what he said by CEASE which means STOP.

Jesus said "Go and sin no more" He did not say "Go and sin less" or "try and sin no more." No Jesus said "STOP SINNING."

If you reject that message then you are in the clutches of the error of the wicked and knoweth not that you are poor, blind and naked.

I dont think so...Try asking him if he would ever tell a believer its ok to sin. This is just your
doing to say that since you can think something can imply something then it does. That game can be played
on you too.

And no! one sin will not spiritually kill you...or God would be alone. Thats just over the top skinski
Ask EG different questions for a change.


But we were gentle among you, like a nurse caring for her children, so having such yearning love for you, we were ready to share not only the gospel of God with you, but our very selves, since you had become so dear to us (1 Thess. 2:7-8).

Maybe He modelling this above over this below.

Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Luke 11:52 "Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."

MT 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

 

[Abiding]

So cast your stones since you feel fit
Ive wanted to dialogue in this thread
but im finding that all are not reasonable

 

[Abiding]

skinski what would you tell a Christian who had fell into sin?
would you tell him tough luck? Your going to hell bud!

What do you think this means:

Gal 6: 1Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. 2Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, 5for each one should carry his own load.

 

[Grandpa]

How many sins did it take to disqualify Adam and Eve?

ONE SIN!!!

Yet you teach that YOU CAN SIN AND NOT SURELY DIE just so long as you don't continue in it. Therefore you teach that you can get away with occasional sinning. Perhaps a child molester can molest a child only once year instead of every week before he was a Christian right?

A serial killer can get saved and then he can just murder occasionally huh? When he murders God will discipline him right but his salvation is not in danger, as long as he doesn't "continue" to kill right?

Come on how can anyone seriously believe such nonsense?

This is why the churches are full of sin because people believe they can sin and remain in a saved state. The truth is that most if not all of these people were NEVER saved in the first place because they NEVER forsook their rebellion. Perhaps they SIN LESS but they never FORSOOK THEIR SIN.

Satan doesn't care if you sin once a week or once a year. Both will keep you out of the kingdom. This is why Satan has crafted a false gospel which makes an allowance for sin. It is deadly heresy and is putting multitudes of people into hell.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

ONE SIN!!!

The only recourse for willful sin is a genuine broken repentance and the crisis it brings in the soul which makes it possible for an individual to FORSAKE their rebellion to God. You CANNOT approach God in any other fashion. Jesus said you must REPENT or PERISH.

Repentance IS NOT simply saying sorry. There is worldly sorrow and godly sorrow. Worldly sorrow leads to death while godly sorrow works a genuine repentance experience. Willful sin is completely forsaken through the process of godly sorrow and broken repentance because the ROOT OF REBELLION in the soul is destroyed.

This is why Paul taught that the "body of sin" is DESTROYED when the "old man is crucified." You cannot enter into kingdom with the old man still alive.

It is a strait gate and narrow way and you must STRIVE to enter into it. You must be serious. Repentance is not this Sunday morning shed a few tears and accept Jesus business which they teach today. These people only superficially change yet still remain in bondage to their sin. They still love the world. It is so evident to anyone who just honestly looks at it.
.

Can you cause someone to be broken before God, Skinski?

Nope. That is God's work.

When someone is broken before God and cries out what does God do for them?

He Saves them.

After He saves them does He continue to beat them and break them?

No. The schoolmaster has already done its job. It has led the broken person to Christ and His Grace.

When we are saved we grow as christians in Grace and Truth. That's Love, Skinski, not performance...

One of your fallacies is that you connect "stopping sin" with "perfection." Stopping sin does not equal perfection. Stopping sin is simply the end of rebellion to God that one may go on to be perfected.

By connecting "stopping sin" with "perfection" you foster the false paradigm necessary whereby someone is more inclined to accept your deceptive "do nothing and trust in Jesus" message.

All willful sin MUST STOP because one CANNOT "receive" the implanted word and "reject" it at the same time. You teach that one can receive and reject it at the same time.

You teach that you CAN be double-minded and SERVE two masters.

Paul taught that you are a slave to whom YOU OBEY. Whether it is sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness.

You don't believe what Paul taught.

Jesus said "GO AN SIN NO MORE!" and you teach "WE CAN'T" thus calling Jesus a liar for giving a command that was impossible. Jesus said if you love Him you will KEEP His commandments yet you say that "We CAN'T" keep His commandments. Thus your false satanic doctrine forces you to imply Jesus is a liar because no-one can love Him because no-one can keep His commandments.

What you believe is a farce and falls apart when examined in the light of Scripture.

You constantly use RHETORIC to prove your points but you NEVER connect scripture together. You might make an allusion to one verse like 1Joh 1:8 but you never reveal context you just twist it like the false teachers you love and adore.

You conscience may be seared beyond hope, I don't know, but people who teach what you do need to be called to account and the strongholds which lie at the root of what you believe must be exposed.

You constantly dwell on sin, Skinski. You are not a teacher of Grace you are a teacher of Law.

Going back to follow the Law is a trap for saved Christians. The Law does not cause the love inside you to grow. The Law shows you your sin, and everyone else's sin.

Only the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit can cause the love, that is put inside you when you are saved, to grow.

You need to be careful of what you are charging to God's elect, right Skinski???

 

[Skinski7]

I dont think so...Try asking him if he would ever tell a believer its ok to sin. This is just your
doing to say that since you can think something can imply something then it does. That game can be played
on you too.

And no! one sin will not spiritually kill you...or God would be alone. Thats just over the top skinski
Ask EG different questions for a change.


But we were gentle among you, like a nurse caring for her children, so having such yearning love for you, we were ready to share not only the gospel of God with you, but our very selves, since you had become so dear to us (1 Thess. 2:7-8).

Maybe He modelling this above over this below.

Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Luke 11:52 "Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."

MT 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Again you are as deceived as he is to not see through what he is teaching. Of course EG will not say "it is ok to sin," the false teachers never say it is "ok" to sin. They will say that "you shoudln't sin" in the context that it is a "bad option" but they will NEVER present sin in the context that it will disqualify you from the kingdom.

Instead they will present it in the context that you will lose rewards, lose fellowship, lose assurance etc. Never in the context of losing salvation.

The reason for this is they have a false understanding of what salvation actually is. Salvation is not only having been set free from the condemnation of past rebellion but it is having been set free from the bondage of rebellion.

One cannot be in bondage in Egypt and claim they have been set free. One is either free or they are not. One is either following God or they are not.

There is no in between grey area. A person is either obeying God or they are not.

This "slipping into rebellion" every once in awhile is a deception of the devil. If you are truly born again there is no way you slip into sin. Sin is always a choice and the Bible says this...

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

We are to rule over sin.

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

We are to die to sin ONCE in repentance. Then we are not to let it reign in our mortal bodies.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

There is always a way to escape that we take it. If we don't take it then this happens...

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Sinners do this...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

True Christian's have done this...

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Thus true Christian's simply do not do what James describes in verses 1:14-15 because those lusts which draw men into sin are crucified.

EG completely ignores this aspect of what the Bible teaches and uses rhetoric to preach an entirely different message.

To him salvation is a package deal which you get which is completely disconnected from your present walk. Thus if you willfully sin in your present walk it does not affect the package deal.

 

[Skinski7]

Can you cause someone to be broken before God, Skinski?

Nope. That is God's work.

When someone is broken before God and cries out what does God do for them?

He Saves them.

After He saves them does He continue to beat them and break them?

No. The schoolmaster has already done its job. It has led the broken person to Christ and His Grace.

When we are saved we grow as christians in Grace and Truth. That's Love, Skinski, not performance...

[/color]






You constantly dwell on sin, Skinski. You are not a teacher of Grace you are a teacher of Law.

Going back to follow the Law is a trap for saved Christians. The Law does not cause the love inside you to grow. The Law shows you your sin, and everyone else's sin.

Only the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit can cause the love, that is put inside you when you are saved, to grow.

You need to be careful of what you are charging to God's elect, right Skinski???

I would not focus on sin and repentance all the time if you people did not constantly teach that grace is a license to sin.

Grace teaches us to DENY UNGODLINESS and WORLDLY LUSTS.

Christian's have ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION THAT IS IN THE WORLD THROUGH LUST.

Christian's HAVE CRUCIFIED the flesh with its passions and desires.

Thus Christian's DO NOT yield to their natural passions and desires and sin against God or their neighbour.



Most of you teach the complete opposite and that is why you oppose my message. You people who come against what I write are not Christian's because you deny the doctrine of Jesus.

"Go and sin NO MORE."

 

[RickShafer]

Skinski said - "You people who come against what I write are not Christian's because you deny the doctrine of Jesus."

That's all that needs to be said to understand this man's mindset.