LOGIC

[Grandpa]

I have never said we are saved by our own works. We can never be saved by our own works it is impossible and James 2:10 does not say the same thing as Ezekiel 18:24. Ezekiel says that when the righteous turn away they will die and their righteousness will not be mentioned.

You need to read Ezekiel 18:24 again, carefully. It says when the righteous turn away from his righteousness.

Then read James 2:10

They are saying the same things, just in slightly different ways...
I already told you your texts weren't saying what you thought they were saying....

Now that I have addressed your texts maybe you can address some of mine?

Perhaps John 10:27-29 and Romans 8:27-39...

 

[Laodicea]

You need to read Ezekiel 18:24 again, carefully. It says when the righteous turn away from his righteousness.

Then read James 2:10

They are saying the same things, just in slightly different ways...
I already told you your texts weren't saying what you thought they were saying....

Now that I have addressed your texts maybe you can address some of mine?

Perhaps John 10:27-29 and Romans 8:27-39...

Ezekiel 18:24 is telling us that we can lose our salvation by our own wrong choices. Even though it appears you are trying to make it say something else, that is what it is saying.

 

[wattie]

Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

What does 'die' mean.. in this passage?

Having their life spent wrongly.. and dieing physically? Or being sent to hell?

Also-- this proverb in Ezekial: is :

Eze 18:2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?


Israel was always up and down in service to God as a whole nation.

The judgment in this passage of not living.. of death.. may be about God cutting short people's lives who are dwelling in iniquity.. not neccessarily the judgment of eternal hell (or in the the OT case-- Hades)

Also-- this passage doesn't mention saving faith at all.. and it is a proverb also which has a different kind of reading to other passages.

Again-- do you apply what a whole nation or group does.. and the judgment given to that group-- to every individual within it?

A bus may crash.. yet some individuals may be unharmed

 

[Grandpa]

Ezekiel 18:24 is telling us that we can lose our salvation by our own wrong choices. Even though it appears you are trying to make it say something else, that is what it is saying.

I suppose you would have a valid point if the word salvation was anywhere in that text. But its not.

Ezekiel 18:24 is saying if a person is righteous and turns away from his own righteousness, he is guilty of sin.

James 2:10 is saying the same thing.

No where in either of those passages does it say anything about a saved man turning away from God and losing his salvation.

 

[psychomom]

Also-- this proverb in Ezekial: is :

Eze 18:2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?

It's one of my favorite chapters, and I just read it again last weekend, so it's actually in my memory...so I wondered if this might be pertinent?


"At that time,” declares the LORD, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.”
Thus says the LORD,
“The people who survived the sword
Found grace in the wilderness—
Israel, when it went to find its rest.”
The LORD appeared to him from afar, saying,
“I have loved you with an everlasting love;
Therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness". (Jer. 31:1-3)


And it just goes on being beautiful, but it's long, so I'll skip to this:


"Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and with the seed of beast.
“As I have watched over them to pluck up, to break down, to overthrow, to destroy and to bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant,” declares the LORD.
“In those days they will not say again,
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’


“But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.

"Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD.


“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” (Jer. 31:27-24)




Just wondrin'.
-ellie

 

[Abiding]

I suppose you would have a valid point if the word salvation was anywhere in that text. But its not.

Ezekiel 18:24 is saying if a person is righteous and turns away from his own righteousness, he is guilty of sin.

James 2:10 is saying the same thing.

No where in either of those passages does it say anything about a saved man turning away from God and losing his salvation.

as of late when i hear verses similiar to that ezekiel verse being quoted its out of context
and is empty of the desired message God was giving which was restoration and blessing.
So much lately of grabbing sentences to push a point. There should be concern for Gods honor
when using His word. Maybe even a good fearful Respect.

 

[Abiding]

Ezekiel 18:24 is telling us that we can lose our salvation by our own wrong choices. Even though it appears you are trying to make it say something else, that is what it is saying.

to tell what its saying you need to read nearly the whole chapter
without adding words to it. Or thoughts.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, we are born in sin by one man's sin, but after our new birth we are called to be sanctified and conformed to the likeness of Christ, we are to put off the old nature and walk according to the Spirit. Sins have been taken care of on the cross that is why we have the privilege to be forgiven if we confess our sins, ask for forgiveness and believe in the Lord Jesus.

Yes, you are right, But who does the bible say sanctifies us? is it us or is it Christ?

Those born of God are, and will be sanctified by Christ, and the HS who is in them.

If Christ did not die for your sin, you have no hope of salvation, that is plain and simple. If he did not pay the price of redemption already for us, we have no hope because we will be forced to pay the price ourselves. If you do not like that, that is tough, and you do not understand the legal system very well. And remember, Gods legal system is perfect. That is why he is perfectly right to condemn us,

So sin does not bring eternal condemnation, eh? Then why did Jesus say this:
Matt 12:36-37

36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Idle words bring eternal condemnation.

Yes they do, But Christ paid for those sins also. If he did not, and you ever said an idle word, you would be eternally condemned right then and there with no hope of ever being saved again, This is what redemption means.

Romans 1:28-32

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
All the above of sins bring eternal condemnation.

Unbelief in itself is a sin.

Yes, Unbelief is a sin, It is called blasphemy of the spirit. The people in romans 1 will not be condemned for the sin they committed. They will be condemned because they did not believe. There sin just proved they did not believe, and never turned to God.

 

[Laodicea]

Ezekiel 18:24 KJV
(24) But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
John 6:66-68 KJV
(66) From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
(67) Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
(68) Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Hebrews 10:38-39 KJV
(38) Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
(39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ezekiel 18:24 KJV
(24) But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Nothing here which states these people were at one time saved. All it states is they who were doing moral goodness, then turned from their moral goodness, does it matter how much good he did before he turned? all his goodness were for nought.

Of course, this is according to law. and NO ONE is saved by law. back then or today,

John 6:66-68 KJV

(66) From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
(67) Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
(68) Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

You forgot a very important part of the passage where jesus spoke to these men who left.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.



61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him

How could these people have ever been saved, if they NEVER BELIEVED?

Hebrews 10:38-39 KJV
(38) Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
(39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Rolls eyes, Can you tell me you actually read this, the passage contradicts what your trying to say.

The author says, But we (those who are truly saved) ARE NOT OF THEM WHO WILL DRAW BACK TO PERDITION, WE ARE THOSE WHO WILL BELIEVE TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL.

The author is differentiating those who are truly saved, who will not fall back, to those who are impostors, who will fall back.

would you like to try again?






[/quote]

 

[Laodicea]

Nothing here which states these people were at one time saved. All it states is they who were doing moral goodness, then turned from their moral goodness, does it matter how much good he did before he turned? all his goodness were for nought.

Of course, this is according to law. and NO ONE is saved by law. back then or today,

[/quote]

The text says if the righteous turn away. Are you saying the righteous are not saved?

 

[Laodicea]

Rolls eyes, Can you tell me you actually read this, the passage contradicts what your trying to say.

The author says, But we (those who are truly saved) ARE NOT OF THEM WHO WILL DRAW BACK TO PERDITION, WE ARE THOSE WHO WILL BELIEVE TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL.

The author is differentiating those who are truly saved, who will not fall back, to those who are impostors, who will fall back.

would you like to try again?

The text in Hebrews shows we have a choice and also he is giving them encouragement he is not teaching OSAS because note it says "the just shall live by faith" Then it says " If any man draw back" We can have salvation and be just But, if we choose to no longer follow God and live as the heathen then we would lose salvation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The text says if the righteous turn away. Are you saying the righteous are not saved?[/quote]

In the OT, there were righteous people, and there were unrighteous people. It did not speak of their salvation, it spoke of how they acted.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The text in Hebrews shows we have a choice and also he is giving them encouragement he is not teaching OSAS because note it says "the just shall live by faith" Then it says " If any man draw back" We can have salvation and be just But, if we choose to no longer follow God and live as the heathen then we would lose salvation.

Oh yeah? Thats Odd. The author of hebrews said WE would not fall back. so did he contradict himself?

You seem to be lost in semantics. The author would not say we would not fall back if we could. Many who the book was written to were not saved, but he still wrote to them, this is who he is speaking of. He is saying make sure your faith is pure, or else you will fall back. Why? because you lost salvation? No, because you were never saved to begin with.

 

[starfield]

The text in Hebrews shows we have a choice and also he is giving them encouragement he is not teaching OSAS because note it says "the just shall live by faith" Then it says " If any man draw back" We can have salvation and be just But, if we choose to no longer follow God and live as the heathen then we would lose salvation.

I couldn't agree more!

Some OSAS proponents teach that one can draw back unto perdition and still have their salvation secured. Then in another breath teach that one cannot draw back unto perdition, for if they do they were never saved to begin with. Which is it? Can someone address this apparent contradiction?

 

[BarlyGurl]

The text in Hebrews shows we have a choice and also he is giving them encouragement he is not teaching OSAS because note it says "the just shall live by faith" Then it says " If any man draw back" We can have salvation and be just But, if we choose to no longer follow God and live as the heathen then we would lose salvation.

You can't loose your SALVATION. THe salvation covenant is immutable, you can forfeit the benefits package.
This is moses... who did not get to enter the promised land. Most everyone tries to equate this as a warning that you can loose your salvation... but moses went to heaven... he just never got to enter the PROMISED LAND. So for those who are always talking about standing on the promises... you can stand as long as you want... but if you have forfeited by your "Choices/actions". Or the opposite... you can fail to utilize the benefits package also.
DOn't worry... I fully realize while I am pointing one finger outward... three more are pointing back at me.

 

[cfultz3]

You can't loose your SALVATION. THe salvation covenant is immutable, you can forfeit the benefits package.

So said the unfaithful/unfruitful servant.
So said Adam and Eve.
So said the preacher living in adultry.
So said the sinner who wandered off from the Truth.

 

[Katy-follower]

John 10:27-29
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.[/COLOR]

Oooh. That verse 28's a good one!!!

This is probably one of the most memorized verses on these forums, yet so greatly ignored by so many.

I'm not sure why so many disregard this verse, when it clearly speaks of His promise to us

 

[cfultz3]

This is probably one of the most memorized verses on these forums, yet so greatly ignored by so many.

I'm not sure why so many disregard this verse, when it clearly speaks of His promise to us

Amen.....So true of His sheep who remain in His flock. But we cannot forget about other verses which say that we are to finish the race faithfully (the state of remaining true to the one we profess). Though He remains faithful, we are given examples of those who were in fellowship with Him and then lost that relationship because of their actions. Inasmuch as one can turn from unbelief to belief, so to can one turn from belief to unbelief. Inasmuch as one can turn from the darkness to the Light, so too can one turn from the Light to the darkness. God seeks willful hearts, not robots.

 

[BarlyGurl]

Amen.....So true of His sheep who remain in His flock. But we cannot forget about other verses which say that we are to finish the race faithfully (the state of remaining true to the one we profess). Though He remains faithful, we are given examples of those who were in fellowship with Him and then lost that relationship because of their actions. Inasmuch as one can turn from unbelief to belief, so to can one turn from belief to unbelief. Inasmuch as one can turn from the darkness to the Light, so too can one turn from the Light to the darkness. God seeks willful hearts, not robots.

Sheep in a flock....this is really easy for me... but if you never been a herdsman/shepherdess it might be a little tougher for you'
In very simple terms... the flock is not a bunch of cute little pets... each individual has a purpose and withthat purpose there are expectations of the Herdsman... these purposes, expectatins and performance evaluations are at the discression of the shepherd alone. A ram who look good... might not produce good offspring... thus he is culled, a promissing fiber ewe... may not produce good fiber but might them be an outstanding foster mother, some lambs are strictly designated for slaughter...understand? Can this anology of the shepherd with sheep be compared with the unprofitable servant.... with the understanding... you only get into the flock... by one gate????