No Such Thing As Free Will!

jimmydiggs · Nov 27, 2012

Everything we do is of our own freewill. The only question is which master are we offering it,through. Even so, breathing, living, loving, being, ALL result from freewill.

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Righteousness or wickedness, which do you choose to do. Both God 'counts,' both result in a 'numbered' end. Righteousness is a simple word, it means 'right standing with God.'

This is the word's base meaning, it's OUR choice do we want to obey God, let Him leas, as we worship , in spirit and in Truth. And, of course, His Spirit is in those choosing (electing) to worship Him.

Since we defined 'righteousness,' maybe another freewill word should be defined: worship.

Any takers?
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Now, remember 'few are chosen' because they don't choose Him. Again, man's choice.
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----- FREE WILL BIBLE VERSES STUDY, from christianityoasis.com website, Christ peeps.
Some healthy perspective

FREE WILL

WHAT IS FREE WILL AND HOW DOES FREE WILL AFFECT CHRISTIANS?

Romans 9:15-16 For He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

So, God will have MERCY on whomever He chooses.

Easy enough.

BUT, it also says:

It is NOT of him that willeth or him that runneth?

It sounds like this is saying that another person’s will, words or works (Whether it be the soul being given the Grace or another's) will NOT determine or hinder God’s Grace from being bestowed as GOD sees fit …

This suggests that another human’s will, words and works do NOT define our destiny.

WHAT IS THE TRUTH?

Let us look into the Bible to find the truth ...

FREE WILL BIBLE VERSES

FREE WILL BIBLE VERSES STUDY ON FREE WILL BIBLE VERSES STUDY MEANING WITH FREE WILL BIBLE VERSES STUDY MESSAGE

Another interesting aspect of God's will is ...

God uses whoever He wants to have His will to come to pass. Even those whom most may find to be unrighteous people.

Romans 9:17-18 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.

God ALLOWED Pharaoh to do what was done as to be able to show His power to all down the road.

This brings to mind something Jesus answered the Apostles:

John 9:1-3 And as Jesus passed by, He saw a man which was blind from his birth. And His disciples asked Him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: BUT THAT THE WORKS OF GOD SHOULD BE MADE MANIFEST IN HIM.

This man was blinded for his entire life just for that very day as for God to receive glory.

This brings to mind and heart a question which is asked by many doubting souls who write the Oasis.

It just happens to be the next verse as well:

Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?

The question is, how do humans have free will, if God’s will cannot be resisted and if we are used as pieces of a Spiritual chess match, for righteous causes (such as the Apostles) and for what most deem as bad such as when God used Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar? How is it that fault or favor is found in or given to an individual if they could not contend with or resist God’s will.

The answer is within the next verse:

Romans 9:20-21 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Who are we to question God's choices, will or motives.

Romans 9:22-23 WHAT IF God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had AFORE PREPARED unto glory,

There is a question in the minds and hearts of many Christians ...

Do we, as Christians have Free Will

OR

Are all of our Choices pre-determined?

FREE WILL BIBLE VERSES DEBATE ON FREE WILL BIBLE ISSUE WITH FREE WILL BIBLE VERSES TRUTH

In other words ... Do we have the freedom to choose or are our choices made for us by cause, circumstance and external factors leading to a destiny already planned out for us?

This ideology that there is a pre-determined plan for our lives and we are just sojourning down this pre-determined path is what is titled by many as Determinism.

You see ... We Christians believe that God is omniscience or all knowing and therefore knows what is going to happen before it does. So He has determined what is to be.

We believe this because He has prophesied future events throughout the Bible.

Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure ...

It is obvious that God DOES know what will be in the END.

Sooooooo, the question becomes ...

Can Free Will exist on a predetermined path?

Many Religious researchers, like to ask ...

IF God has already determined what is to be, how is it that humans have Free Will ... Which is the ability to FREELY CHOOSE to do our own will.

WELL I HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU ... WHY MUST IT BE ONE OR THE OTHER?

Is it because mankind's limited carnal mind has such limited Spiritual insight? Why do some tend to put God in a lil box and limit Him to their understanding?

WHAT IF ...

FATE is the result of our day to day choices that we make by applying our free will, which our Lord allows us to use ...

BUT

DESTINY is where we will be in the END and God knows that outcome.

Let's be honest ...

God DID give man Free Will to make their own Choices from the start ...

Adam and Eve were given Free Will.

Genesis 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

This reveals that God commanded that they NOT do something and yet said IF they CHOSE to do so, they would suffer consequences of said CHOICE.

Well ... We ALL know that they DID exercise their FREE WILL and CHOSE to eat from the TREE.

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Their CHOICE ... Has affected every human born from that day on.

Due to this Choice made by the first man and woman ... The Sin is now in the flesh of all mankind and when we are born, we are destined to death ...

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

UNLESS we make the CHOICE to believe in Jesus. When we become Christians, we are REBORN and receive Salvation and Eternal Life. This New Covenant of Grace ... Has the destiny of death made void by the Blood of Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

So, Adam and Eve DID have FREE WILL and their CHOICE did have consequences that changed the DESTINY of all humans ...

BUT ... GOD has given us another way to return to the original predestined path before Adam and Eve's CHOICE altered the destiny ...

BUT ... We must use our Free Will yet again and CHOOSE to believe in Jesus.

Another Example ... God promised Abraham a son would be conceived by Sarah.

BUT ... Sarah and Abraham utilized their Free Will and CHOSE to take matters in their own hands.

Genesis 16:2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.

The chain of events resulting from their exercising Free Will and their CHOICE had another bloodline created through that child (Ishmael) which are still warring with the Jewish people to this day.

Of Course God DID keep His promise to Abraham and Sarah bore a child named Isaac.

Even Angels have Free Will ...

Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

There were also Freewill offerings

Leviticus 22:18-23 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering; Ye shall offer at your own will a male without blemish, of the beeves, of the sheep, or of the goats. But whatsoever hath a blemish, that shall ye not offer: for it shall not be acceptable for you. And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein. Blind, or broken, or maimed, or having a wen, or scurvy, or scabbed, ye shall not offer these unto the LORD, nor make an offering by fire of them upon the altar unto the LORD. Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.

Deuteronomy 23:23 That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.

Ezra 3:4-5 They kept also the feast of tabernacles, as it is written, and offered the daily burnt offerings by number, according to the custom, as the duty of every day required; And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.

And what of the Free Will offerings "of the mouth" ...

Psalms 119:108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

Free Will to CHOOSE righteousness or wickedness

Ezekiel 33:18-19 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

The New Testament is also filled with parables of Jesus which reveal this Free Will where man is given the ability to CHOOSE.

Here is but one example ...

Matthew 22:2-14 The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.

Many are called but few are chosen ...

Because few will CHOOSE.

Man must be able to CHOOSE and to do so WILLINGLY.

Philemon 1:14 But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.

Every aspect of Christianity, we are asked to WILLINGLY CHOOSE to act.

2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

People will have Free Will to CHOOSE ... Right up to the End of Times.

Revelation 9:20-21 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Then there are those who exercise their Free Will to serve the Lord and even CHOOSE to die for Him.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Still believe we do not have Free Will to choose?

Then why does the Lord say that those who overcome will not have their names BLOTTED OUT of the book of life?

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His Angels.

Think about it ...

If we did not have Free Will, there would be no reason for judgment because if our path was predestined AND we did not

have Free Will ...

Why would we be punished?

Unless the CHOICE was ours?

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

So the judgment is based on CHOICES made.

We DO have Free Will ... And we are to CHOOSE the right path.

And whosoever WILL

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

FREE WILL BIBLE TRUTH IS THAT THE FREE WILL BIBLE CHOICE IS YOURS.

Free will is the ability to make choices and yet possessing this free will has us

This post has 34 mentions of "Free Will".

All other posts between 41 and 81, have 66 mentions including the thread title that is attached to each post.

The mouth is the overflow of the heart. It would seem from skimming through your post, you highly value autonomy from God.

Reality · Nov 27, 2012

Ok course we have free will! We have no choice!

jimmydiggs · Nov 27, 2012

cfultz3 said:

Sure, but that doesn't mean the choice is in any sense of the word "free".

The unregenerate many is given the chance many times to discern that which is spiritual. He choose against it, yes. This is not to say that it was a truly free choice though.

1 Cor. 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It says that he cannot understand them, because it is spiritual discerned. He does not discern, because he does not have the spirit of God. He cannot discern the spiritual condition he is in, because after all, he does not have the spirit. Thus, because he cannot discern, he cannot acquire the spirit by his own ability. Why might that be? Well, quite simply the ability to discern spiritual things requires something he does not have, nor can acquire by himself.

So when he chooses to reject spiritual things, such as the Gospel... Why does he do so? Well, in part, because it is his nature to reject it.

I'm not sure how you are using Light and Dark, as it can be used several ways.

I will say this though...

When it comes to sin and salvation... you could not choose anything other than rebellion due to your nature (by nature children of wrath, for example) without God already owning you.

Remember Romans 8:7? The mind must be changed by God. When God regenerates, he owns. So, are we led by God when we choose to crucify the flesh? Yes. That is not to say that we could ever begin to do so, if God had not already made us his.

You cannot "hand over" that which is not yours. As a mind set on the spirit, to crucify the flesh is the will. That crucifying of the flesh, cannot occur without a change (Romans 8:7).

This is not to say, however, that man does not wrestle against the flesh after regeneration. God changes the heart. He changes our "nature" in that regard. He does not, however, remove Original Sin.

A broken pot, is still a broken pot. Even if you glue it together.

This is part of why we should avoid inserting Libertarian Free Will into scripture. It values mans autonomy from God over mans obedience to God.

From Charles Spurgeon,

Those who proclaim Libertarian Free Will, cannot claim that their change is totally an act of God. Why not? Well, I had to give him something first, before he could do anything. I'm the one that initiated salvation.

See previous related comments.

Actually, it's not inasmuch, to the same extent. God is not responsible for your being a child of wrath. A natural man. A mind set on the flesh. Yet, he is responsible for regeneration. You would not have chosen him, had he not already chosen you, and regenerated. Isn't it glorious?

Sure. That choice is not by any means free. It is governed by our nature, our desires, the Spirit of God working in us, etc...

cfultz3 · Nov 27, 2012

jimmydiggs said:

FREEWILL, FREEWILL, FREEWILL, FREEWILL, FREEWILL, FREEWILL, FREEWILL, FREEWILL, FREEWILL, FREEWILL, FREEWILL, FREEWILL, FREEWILL, FREEWILL, FREEWILL, FREEWILL, to infinity

Will you add me to that graph. I want it to be known that I speak truth also.

cfultz3 · Nov 27, 2012

Jimmy,

If you wish, we can talk about the Bible, I have no interest or knowledge pertaining to isms or ists. I simply follow Scripture.

jimmydiggs · Nov 27, 2012

cfultz3 said:

Find me a quotation of the words "Free Will", in the bible.

If the label is not there, why do you use the term?

I believe the Trinity to be biblical. Yet, you'll never find that "ism" in the bible. The word "Trinity" never appears. Is it wrong to use the term "Trinity?" No.

Maybe you don't, but I like to know what I'm eating.

jimmydiggs · Nov 27, 2012

cfultz3 said:

Hey now, that's a lot of isms...

jimmydiggs · Nov 27, 2012

cfultz3 said:

After counting, I only see one "ism", that does not pertain to something you have claimed of yourself.

I spoke of Libertarian Free Will twice by my count, which you have used of yourself as well.

I used the term "Original Sin", but I find it odd that you object to that one, when I have used others previously and you did not object. For what reason?

jimmydiggs · Nov 27, 2012

Descyple said:

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

cfultz3 · Nov 27, 2012

So you can use Trinity and I cannot use freewill even though both are proved (read previous posts) in Scripture? Lol that is like saying, 'do as I say, not as I do'. As long as it is ok with you, and me, to use Trinity to define the concept of the Godhead, then I will continue using freewill to convey the concept of ......choose you this day between good and evil, life and death, God and flesh...but as for me....I will choose.... Nice try though

jimmydiggs said:

jimmydiggs · Nov 27, 2012

cfultz3 said:

I did not say you could not use terms.

Show me where I have said that.

I have said that the teaching of "free will", is something that must be imported (by those who believe it) because scripture does not teach it. Now, if you are using the term "free will" with a different understanding that what is traditionally "free will", then that is something that must be addressed.

I notice you have admitted to using "isms".

Now that this is out of the way,

.. do you think you could respond to my post?

Reality · Nov 27, 2012

Guys, is arguing over the Bible what God intended?

cfultz3 · Nov 27, 2012

Reality said:

It is not arguing, it is called: discussing God's words, much like talking about the wonders of God. Nice try though.

cfultz3 · Nov 27, 2012

jimmydiggs said:

I did not say you could not use terms.

Show me where I have said that.

I have said that the teaching of "free will", is something that must be imported (by those who believe it) because scripture does not teach it. Now, if you are using the term "free will" with a different understanding that what is traditionally "free will", then that is something that must be addressed.

I notice you have admitted to using "isms".

Now that this is out of the way,

.. do you think you could respond to my post?

Maybe reterm your post because that is what I got from it. Sorry for misunderstanding.

cfultz3 · Nov 27, 2012

jimmydiggs said:

I have never heard of that term until you said it here: Libertarian Freewill and I had to go to wikipedia to see what it meant..

I used the term "Original Sin", but I find it odd that you object to that one, when I have used others previously and you did not object. For what reason? ?????????

Ok, lets start over. I will wait until you reply and will reply directly to each and every statement.

RickShafer · Nov 27, 2012

I thought we'd been through all this Chris.
I will ask again; how free is the will of the servant?
Is every soul that ever lived not made to serve?
Who eats first, the master or the servant?
Jesus never said (if we chose) we cannot serve two masters.
He just said we cannot serve two masters.
Every soul is serving either God or mammon(satan).
Now the question is who do we serve?
And the answer is if we serve Jesus it is by grace through fiath.
Now we know that faith didn't come from ourselves because it is clearly through grace(unmerited favor).
So again - what is the first cause of our faith? -
If it is us then it is no more grace.

cfultz3 · Nov 27, 2012

In response to:
Originally Posted by cfultz3
but the soul is, nevertheless, given the choice to choose what was presented to it by God.

Jimmy said:

jimmydiggs said:

Sure, but that doesn't mean the choice is in any sense of the word "free". -- It is free in the sense that the entity is given that choice to decide for itself whose side it wishes to align with. God does not make that choice for that soul, inasmuch as He did not make that choice for Adam and Eve, Lucifer or the countless angels who chose to follow him in rebellion. We as souls are free to choose between life and death, good and evil, God and flesh or Satan. If we do not have free choice, then what are we but creatures used as pawns in the orchestration of dividing up kingdoms?

The unregenerate many is given the chance many times to discern that which is spiritual. He choose against it, yes. This is not to say that it was a truly free choice though.

1 Cor. 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It says that he cannot understand them, because it is spiritual discerned. He does not discern, because he does not have the spirit of God. He cannot discern the spiritual condition he is in, because after all, he does not have the spirit. Thus, because he cannot discern, he cannot acquire the spirit by his own ability. Why might that be? Well, quite simply the ability to discern spiritual things requires something he does not have, nor can acquire by himself.

What things come from the Spirit of God? The Christ as Savior and all which is conveyed by such a statement. Conviction. Rependance. Forgivness. Adoption. Salvation. Judgment. Indeed, those things of Christ cannot be comprehended by the one who is a child of the rebellion, seeing that such things are not of the flesh but are spiritual. Seeing that he can only decern those things of the flesh, then it must be by conviction that he sees what condition he is in.

And if he was convicted by the Holy Spirit before rependance, then he discerned by the hearkening of the Spriit that he was in a state of wickedness, seeing that one received the Spirit once one has been purified and made a temple.

One does not acquire the Spirit by discenment, one acquires Him as a sealment of sonhood. One does not become a son until he has been adopted. So then, by him hearkening to the Spirit, he repents and is forgiven and then adopted as a son, who then, is given salvation through faith and the judgment of everlasting life is handed down to him.

As we have been taught, Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge. We now know good and evil. We can decern what is good and what is evil. We know that God is good and the devil is evil, ask almost any seculiar person and even they will tell us the same. But a man who lives in the flesh is not dead to the flesh and therefore he is not spiritual. And if he is not spiritual, then he cannot decern the things the Spirit has come to tell us about. To the one in the flesh, Christ is foolishness. But to us who are spiritual, Christ is the Wisdom and Knowledge of God. If a man is full of worldly knowledge, where is there room for God's knowledge and wisdom? Certainly then, we need to die to the flesh so that we can live to the spirit so that we can decern the things spoken to us by His Spirit.

So when he chooses to reject spiritual things, such as the Gospel... Why does he do so? Well, in part, because it is his nature to reject it. -- yes, because he is of wordly knowledge. But for him to have rejected Christ in the first place, tells us that he had decernment, although fleshly decernment.

I'm not sure how you are using Light and Dark, as it can be used several ways. -- In the beginning, God created the Light and the Darkness. There is but two lights for a soul to look upon, so it is said:

Mat_6:22-3 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Luk_11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.

I will say this though...

When it comes to sin and salvation... you could not choose anything other than rebellion due to your nature (by nature children of wrath, for example) without God already owning you. -- how else then do we hearken to the Spirit to turn around and face the Light? Do we not concur with God that we are children of the rebellion and that we do not wish to remain in that state and that we will willfully turn around and will be led by His Spirit? If we cannot choose anything but rebellion, how then do we choose God if not by that same will which had chosen to remain a child of the rebellion?

Remember Romans 8:7? The mind must be changed by God. When God regenerates, he owns. So, are we led by God when we choose to crucify the flesh? Yes. That is not to say that we could ever begin to do so, if God had not already made us his. -- Agree, the mind starts to be changed by God when we have turned around in conviction to repent. But to say that once He starts to regenerate, He owns it, is to say that we become mindless souls who know nothing, see nothing, say nothing in much the same way a robot would accuire his comamnds. But are we not told by Jesus Himself that we indeed have a freewill to choose that which has been presented to us when He said, 'Not my will but your will'. He had a will and His will was to follow God's will which was presented to Him by the same Spirit which indwells in all believers.

If the Spirit were to have said to me, 'Give that family one hundred dollars because they are hungry'. I am now faced with a choice. I can either say, 'No, I need it more than they', and face the consequences of my refusal to obey, or I could say, 'Yes God! Your will be done' and then be considered the Spirit's co-worker. You see, I can say yes or no because God has given me that choice when He created me (choose you this day). That which I do, I do freely because He frist loved me and showed me the greatness of being loved and the benefits of passing forward that love.

But yes, we are led by God to crucify the flesh, but inasmuch as Jesus learned obedience by the things He underwent, so too do we willfully give our obedience to Him so that we can be changed. And yet, we are told that they who do not willfully allow the Spirit to cultivate that soul into a good field are turn over to the desert to whither away, seeing that they were producing nothing but biers and thorns, indeed a soul unwilling to be led to crucify his flesh so that he could become spiritual and thus, discern the things of the Spirit.

You cannot "hand over" that which is not yours. As a mind set on the spirit, to crucify the flesh is the will. That crucifying of the flesh, cannot occur without a change (Romans 8:7). -- The only thing our souls posses is our souls, everything else is given or taken from it. If my soul desires are of the flesh, it has handed it self over to the god of this world, as they did in the Garden. But, if my soul desires are of the spirit, then it hands itself over to the Spirit to be led by God into doing those things of God, as Jesus did during His walk of showing us how to return to that state before the fall. In both cases, we are faced with two choices: to obey or not obey God. So, by me choosing to follow behind Jesus when He said, 'Come and follow me', then I have chosen for the Lord to change me the way He sees fit.

This is not to say, however, that man does not wrestle against the flesh after regeneration. God changes the heart. He changes our "nature" in that regard. He does not, however, remove Original Sin. -- ok

A broken pot, is still a broken pot. Even if you glue it together. --ok

This is part of why we should avoid inserting Libertarian Free Will into scripture. -- This is what I was talking about when I said I do not know much about isms or ists. It was only when you brought it up that I had to go and look it up to see what it meant. And also, it was the reason why I said that I only knew Scripture. Basically, I am saying, what I know is what I have learned from Scripture and not from any demonination. So, if you would, let us stick to just the Bible, seeing that you are talking over my head when you say things like : Libertarian Freewill and the sort. Thank you for that consideration.

It values mans autonomy from God over mans obedience to God.-- Freewill does not seperate one from God, but, in all aspects, allows that man to freely obey the one he has chosen as his Lord.

From Charles Spurgeon,

Those who proclaim Libertarian Free Will, cannot claim that their change is totally an act of God. Why not? Well, I had to give him something first, before he could do anything. I'm the one that initiated salvation. --Sure one can. It is His Voice which stands behind a child of the rebellion and beckons him to turn around. It is Him who causes a contrite heart in a man to repent. It is He who offers salvation to the lost soul. It is He who gives the adoption of sonhood. Indeed, it is all Him who does the regeneration and all which goes along with that. The only thing required of a man is a willingness to follow Him, as it was with the Hebrews, as it was with Paul who changed his ways after his meeting with Jesus, as it is with everyone who is willing to listen and obey His Voice. Our Perfect Example has told us the way it is: I choose not my ways, but your ways. And because He chose God's ways....we all know what became of Him and we all know what becomes of those who choose His ways.....being presented before Him, what shall we do but praise Him for our salvation because we chose to believe in the Son. And we know of those who chose not to believe.....As for me, I chose my Salvation and without Him, I would have nothing but that which belongs to a soul of the rebellion. Indeed, all credit goes to our God. Choose the Light and be known of the Light. Choose the darkness and be not known.

See previous related comments.

Actually, it's not inasmuch, to the same extent. God is not responsible for your being a child of wrath. A natural man. A mind set on the flesh. Yet, he is responsible for regeneration. You would not have chosen him, had he not already chosen you, and regenerated. Isn't it glorious? -- Even before the foundation of the world, God has chosen those who believe in the Son to be His and all those who do come have been predetermined to be made in the likeness of the Son. And they who have been predestinated, we Christians, will die to the flesh, seeing that He will complete the work He has started. But then again, if i am willing for Him to led me to slay my flesh, then I am also able to say I do not wish to die to that part of the flesh. And if I do not repent of that rebellious attitute after many many attempts, have I then reached perfection in that rebellion or shall not the Spirit hault until that which needs to be corrected is corrected? It is impossible for me to reach the finish line if I stop in the middle and walk off the path which I am being led on my the Spirit. Indeed, impossible even in real life. I have won nothing until I reach the finish line and it is only there that my reward of everlasting life is given to me for a faithful walk with the Lord.

Sure. That choice is not by any means free. It is governed by our nature, our desires, the Spirit of God working in us, etc... --- All the more reason to die to the flesh so that the spirit can be led by the Spirit. A carnal soul will never be led by His Spirit, seeing that it is foolishness to him. But the soul who is spiritual hearkens to his Father as to where to be led.

cfultz3 · Nov 27, 2012

RickShafer said:

I thought we'd been through all this Chris. -ok?

I will ask again; how free is the will of the servant? -- free to choose between life and death, good and evil, God and flesh.

Is every soul that ever lived not made to serve? -- yes. So we choose who to serve.

Who eats first, the master or the servant? -- the master we serve.

Jesus never said (if we chose) we cannot serve two masters.
He just said we cannot serve two masters. ???? are we pawns handed over to whichever lord God chooses to give us over to? Even the angels had freewill. Even Adam and Eve. Even the Hebrews in the wilderness.

Every soul is serving either God or mammon(satan). -- yes.

Now the question is who do we serve?
And the answer is if we serve Jesus it is by grace through fiath. -- Salvation is through faith which is a gracious act brought about by God. We serve whom we have chosen to serve (choose you this day). When a soul turns around by the beckoning of the Spirit, is that not a choice that soul has made or is that soul forced to turn around? We choose our master, even as the angels choose their master (leader).

Now we know that faith didn't come from ourselves because it is clearly through grace(unmerited favor). --Salvation is through faith which is a gracious act brought about by God. Faith by definition means to place confidence in someone or something. They who worship idols have confidence (faith) in that worldy material. We all place confidence in someone when we would say even to a child 'I just know you will you can do it'. So, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Again, we return to the child of the rebellion. He hears God's Voice, and concuring with Him, he believes God and thereafter, his beliefs is His confidence he has placed in the One who said He will led him Home.

So again - what is the first cause of our faith? - Listening to God's beckoning to turn around away from the darkness to the Light. We believed Him when He said that He is Life and what we were looking at before we turned around to look upon Him was nothing but death and had nothing to offer but outer darkenss.

If it is us then it is no more grace. -- the only part a man has to offer is a willingness to follow Jesus. God does EVERYTHING else. But without a willingness, God allows one to walk away from fellowship with Him. A man is not credited with his salvation, but is rewarded for obedience. Salvation is by faith alone, but what value does it have when one is not led by God (works in conjunction with His Spirit)?

...........

Laodicea · Nov 27, 2012

The teaching of OSAS takes away free will because that we will be saved regardless of choice.

RickShafer · Nov 27, 2012

Listen, It goes back to first cause.
No one has it within themselves to follow God out of their own freewill.
If they did, Jesus wouldn't have needed to die.
Even the act of repentance is a gift.
In our flesh(carnal mind), dwells no good thing.
Now, that spiritual mind Christ indwells His followers with,
is that a gift or is it their own volition?
None are righteous, no not one.
And faith is a gift.
So don't take it upon yourself that you are acting out of your own freewill, if that very faith you claim is a gift.
This is pride, and it is sin.

Listen, I've lived it on both sides and I've seen it firsthand.
The very act of believing in the One whom the Father has sent is a gift(grace); lest any man should boast.

No Such Thing As Free Will!

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