NAR, Cessationism, Darby, Scofield, Dispensationalism, Zionism and related theories

[zone]

hi ken.
continuing....

.....But we are all victims of a culture that has changed so fast we can hardly keep up with it, and we seem to be using the same words for different things. Words like tongues, prophecy, even what you said "special music", all mean three different things to you, me and Red, depending on our experience.

putting aside music for the time being (which is a separate issue in itself - i see you address it also):

i hope we agree that words like 'tongues, prophecy' etc are defined by what scripture says, not by our experiences.

i know we'll get to the heart of it - the definition of terms, and confirming in the scriptures.

one word that is a stumbling block is GIFTS.

just because we call something a gift doesn't make it a Biblical Pentecost gift.

calling things gifts does not automatically make God the giver of what we think we have.

( side note: for that reason i may try to highlight the idea by highlighting the word as we go in our discussion)

I would rather permit the gifts and deal with excesses. Red would rather permit the gifts elsewhere, and you would rather have them not be there at all.

*this is an important place to pause, i think*

what happens if i go like this (please don't be offended, if possible):

I would rather permit the ____ and deal with excesses. [others] would rather permit the _____ elsewhere, and you would rather have them not be there at all.

hopefully i can look at this for a bit and think about it.


i'll split this post here....cont.....
zone

 

[zone]

ken...continuing:
i'm going to bring this over from last post.
hope that's okay.
trying to make a point, maybe clarify my 'issues'

yes, we all have issues

I would rather permit the_____and deal with excesses. [others] would rather permit the _____ elsewhere, and you would rather have them not be there at all.

That's perfectly fine to me; each of us is just doing the Godly thing based on our experience. The discussion is important, as you say.

okay.
here's where i have an issue.

'based on our experience'

i know you mean (or i think you mean) both the cumulative and the experiential.

i agree. but what happens if someone with no growth (experience) ends up in the middle of one of the vids (experiential) we looked at? are they likely to believe in what they experience/feel (and are told)?

sure they are.

so already we have a problem, which i guess is obvious.
i'm prolly overworking this reply, but just wanna be upfront.

this is hopefully leading back to a discussion on continuationism (or renewal/restoration - which means something happened to stop....then restart what we think were the gifts). again, we've got one or the other.

this idea of renewal must, absolutely (for me) must be shown to be previously revealed by God, in the scriptures to occur, or i am not ready to accept it lock stock and barrel. or at all, actually.

We need to know as best as we can what that Godly thing is, or how else are we to take our place in the whole Body, with its varied experience and thus varied desires for the gifts. .

see....this is another *issue* spot with our terms.

what desires for what gifts?

the gift i wanted and received was forgiveness of my sins and eternal life with The Lord.

anything else is not necessary. it just isn't. if we've made it through 2000 years (more precisely 2017 years) with the Same Lord and the same Spirit, offering the same gift of forgiveness and eternal life thanks to Jesus at Calvary, what's all the other stuff?

it was for the foundation (pouring a foundation just like in construction) of the church at Pentecost (or rather the Cross). that foundation was laid, and now we build ON IT.

why is there this desire for something we think is lacking AFTER we have come to salvation? there's nothing lacking for me....early on there was, without a teacher - that struggle was really hard, and man, i been everywhere. but i can read, and i can hear the Bible preached. i don't understand what would be left to be desired?

in any case....

OKAY....enough preamble

We need to know as best as we can what that Godly thing is, or how else are we to take our place in the whole Body, with its varied experience and thus varied desires for the gifts.
1. I've watched just enough to know to stay away. When I get caught in these things accidentally, I usually wait until I can get the person's ear, and start asking questions, and gradually tell them the opposing Scriptures when I have their confidence enough to listen. One of the reasons I needed to get more info on rich Joyner, was that I keep away from big name ministries, since their temptations to become like this are great, and I know so many have succumbed.

no argument here.
i see that in you.
i would gladly fellowship with you, and consider you a brother.
based on our discussion and your profession, i know you have the church's best interests at heart.

............................................

2. Do you, as a cessationist, believe the gifts do not exist today as a fact, or that they exist but are not appropriate for use in the church?

they do not exist today as a fact.
this is the general cessationist position.....there are all manner of factions or disagreements within cessationism, but any acceptance of any measure of cessationism is an acknowledgment of a ceasing of the gifts poured out at Pentecost >> to some degree, which opens up the whole thing.

here's a pretty standard resource for anyone wishing to examine the question.

>> Cessationism - Cessationist - Spiritual Gifts - The Ultimate Cessationism Resource

cessationists are generally amazed that it's even an issue
for the most part, we have 'experienced' todays activities AFTER NOT seeing it in scripture.

said another way - a simple reading of the scriptures in context led no one to believe what we see today would happen. by reverse engineering what is happening, it makes perfect sense that it DID happen, but we believe it's NOT of God (as in continuation or renewal), but was foretold by Him.

we came to see a GAP inserted in the narrative that shouldn't be there...hence the connection to dispensationalism etc (not to swerve off topic). this is why folks like me will hold to roughly the same theological and eschatological positions.

we know our position is extremely unpopular.

zone

continued....

 

[zone]

3. Everything depends on whether the people know enough Scripture to know the "Lord's thing" (see #10). The people I associate with do, or I stop associating with them in ministry. This is another of those terms we are using three different ways.

ken.
okay...i know some of the language issues we have.

would it be possible to be clear on what you mean here:

"3. Everything depends on whether the people know enough Scripture to know the "Lord's thing" (see #10)."

i agree a lot depends on it (maybe everything).
maybe we need to find out what the Lord's thing would be (say, each worship day, be it saturday, sunday, thursday etc).
what should people expect?

 

[zone]

hi ken, i skipped over #4 as it is lovely as is, and is personal

5-6-7. Absolutely not of God. I have a theory about all of this. I think it all started when the Catholic Church decided that hierarchy are the only ones qualified to administer a church. The Protestant reformation changed who could be in charge, but it is only very recently that the idea that a pastor or elders need not be in charge, has come up.

okay. we agree on not of God in those cases. that's really a victory for us, ken.

this is an interesting theory and certainly makes sense on the surface.
the only problems i have so far with it are, e.g. - was this interruption predicted in the scriptures?

the main issue i have would be can anyone stop what The Lord has willed? for example, could the disciples have stopped the Day of Pentecost from arriving?

did anything get in the way of the compiling and completion of the scriptures?
again: my Bible has a back cover.
finished.

but your theory is a good one in trying to get to the bottom of it all.
if we leave off naming entities or epochs (RC/Reformation etc); could we do a rough sketch of what happened like so:

Pentecost > unbiblical hierarchy > gifts suppressed (Spirit/Plan thwarted) > approx 1500 years of sidetracking > disintegration of hierarchy (introduction of denominations also) > Spirit active again, Gifts, Plan restarted?

would it look something like that?

zone

 

[unclefester]

Thus may surprise you, or not, but I spoke with empathy to you,

I knew your hearts intention It is not unlike mine at all in pointing out what I see as "unhealthy and even dangerous extras" regarding our beliefs and our faith in Christ. This topic is one that many of us will never come to agreement on. I knew that the moment I entered this thread. This is not a thread for the weak-hearted ... and shall always remain a topic that causes much friction. Nevertheless, I am pleased to see it discussed

 

[zone]

hi ken. whew. i realized you're gonna go WHAT? when you log on and see all these posts...but i gotta finish.
oopsie

JUST PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT TO RESPOND TO....sorry

5-6-7. Absolutely not of God. I have a theory about all of this. I think it all started when the Catholic Church decided that hierarchy are the only ones qualified to administer a church. The Protestant reformation changed who could be in charge, but it is only very recently that the idea that a pastor or elders need not be in charge, has come up. The question is inherent in the restoration of the gifts. If the gifts are real, and are of God, then prophets, sayers of wisdom, apostles, etc., all have a say, and anyone could become one of these anytime if God wills. I think this is the real dividing point - who gets the authority.

yeah, probably when it comes to super-aggressive guys like some in the NAR etc it would be about actual gov't authority. for many others it's probably about prestige or attention-seeking, just as it's always been.

then according to my position we have a serious influx of deceiving spirits.

your remarks above are good observations, though, even for a balanced view of either side....it does get to the heart of the problem - AUTHORITY.

here again, i'm sola scriptura (not minus the Holy Spirit as some may be quick to suggest). so there's never any question about authority.

The purpose of allowing the first holy laughter was to make the social statement that the carefully prepared sermon of the ordained pastor should be forced to wait for the "Lord's joy" in the non-ordained people. I'm not saying if it should or not in fact wait, or if it was even the Lord's joy. What I'm saying that's why the event happened, and why it was allowed; that particular pastor felt that the sermon should wait. But then, like the gifts we are talking about, it drew attention, people wanted to see it, their money was of use to the church, so they started making it happen. Like so many, the desire for prestige and money got them out of God's will. By the time you saw it, it was a doorway for the demonic, and it sounds like some of that got onto you. (I feel so bad it happened.)

well, i'm going to take your personal word on this.

it was extremely bizarre, but i'm not sorry it happened - in hindsight it was a good thing (for me).
there was an incredible time of learning with a renewed mind. everything was kind of in place to allow for that year.

8. Perhaps our gulf in tongues is because we mean something different by the term? Have you ever heard of the Catholic "rosary"; look it up and compare tongues to that; maybe if you grew up Catholic you will even want tongues when you see this particular "other option". But by all means,when we get the bulk of this done, state your reasons for opposition. Once I see where you are coming from, maybe we can understand each other better.

sure. this is not a terribly difficult one to process, which we can do later.

9. Of course not. Feelings are what you have after applying Scripture for many years. It's just like going by your "gut". If you are in charge in an assembly where something like these videos happens, sometimes it's your gut that gets you standing up and stopping it; the Scriptures come later, after you have saved someone from getting hurt the way you were.

okay....i'm really really happy you are involved ken.
that might sound contradictory coming from a cessationist - but i hope you understand.

10-11. We agree completely. My take is He has a normally awesome way He does everything day-to-day, and a stunning super-awesome way he does unexpected things, just enough to keep you wanting to praise Him all the time. So we should always depend on Him to use regular methods (like music, the Word, prayer) but be ready for anything new to us He might want to do as well. Do you agree that anything God does, has an example or verses in Scripture that we can refer to, so we can be certain it is Him and not a counterfeit?

yes absolutely.

we also know though that devil knows scripture very very well and it was scripture he used in The Temptation.

12. That is an impossible question in view our exchange in 10-11. We have to be open to anything God might want to do, which is why we need to be in prayer for our assemblies, and knowledgeable in the Word. I have lists in my head from experience and study. And when I lead, I have expectations based on what I believe He told me in prayer for the particular day. These lists include pretty much everything we are discussing here. .

again, even though we're in totally different camps, i'm glad you're watching out for the precious souls.

13. Let's all pray we are humble enough not to do that. Let's also realize we probably are not, and be ever on the alert, lest we fail. You bring up "music and emotional hyping". To me, these are different things. There are really great pastoral music techniques, that can bring a congregation into an emotional experience of God. My wife perfected a series of these techniques, and I studied from her and learned a lot. I have never known her, or anyone who uses techniques like hers, to agree with any of the videos we are presenting here. The congregation has an emotional experience of God and heaven opening, and immediately settles into a quiet, reverent state while the music is still playing. Handel is quoted as having seen the heavens open when he finished writing the Halleujah Chorus, and that is what I mean about this music. The music can apparently be misused for emotional hyping, but I want to mention that is a separate thing. I have tried three times to start a thread on specifics, and gotten no takers.

hmmm...i didn't see those threads. i'm not a musician myself, but i love all kinds of music (except jazz)

14. God does not approve of sin in any form, deliberate or accidental. Which is why He sends people like you to ask questions like you are asking. You, or someone who reds this, might be a part of His corrective solution. He lets the wheat and tares grow together, but His allowance of the amount of hurt that is happening, I believe, is very nearly used up, and believe it or not, I have prophets in my life who are prophesying exactly that.

I love you in the Lord as well.

amen.

 

[kenisyes]

1. okay. but my position is forewarned is forearmed. full disclosure - from all camps.
i see your side of it, where you believe suppression of The Lord's intended continuation of the Pentecost gifts took place (and takes place) - that you consider this as a defining feature of why things are at extremes.
2. * this is a really important section for me to understand*
how can that bless anyone? if it is not of God, it just isn't.
what 'other ways' do 'they' have to deal with 'it'
3. this is where i hope for us to define our terms, as you've recognized we need to do.
who are 'they'?
what is 'it'?
and what are the 'things' mentioned?
see, i don't see this as a God thing being hijacked part way through or whatever. i see it as just flesh and deluding spirits. i know that's harsh, but full disclosure.

4. if the gifts poured out at Pentecost are not exactly of the same kind and quality, used for the exact same purpose today, we have something completely different. or different to a degree. for a different purpose.
zone

1. I just meant I feel glad that I understand that this is not just theoretical theology for you. I can sympathize better. you have stated my position correctly. Just like you, I went through it. I'm 11 years older; you missed the good parts.

2. I am no expert, but I have observed that almost all the pentecostal churches that behave differently from either what i know or from these videos are very small and are mostly one or two extended families. They deal with the problems by close association. In other words, if something goes wrong they help each other through it. The blessing is because they really feel closer to God when they do this, and they really are kinder day to day. In fact, one might address the issue if much of the problem is because these videos are happening in public meetings. One must wonder if these things were done only among families and close friends if anyone would have ever even noticed enough to complain.

3. I'm not sure of the line you are referring to; I've looked five times. I'll answer what I think. The "they" are two groups, one that I knew from the old days and still know today, and a second that makes the videos that have been posted. The things I think you mean are the gifts, the most divisive are tongues, prophecy, apostleship, miracles. My definitions: tongues - syllables with no English meaning that the individual feels are a language of God. prophecy - saying what god wants said in His name. apostleship - the beginning of new works in the Body in God's name. miracles - acts of God with no obvious scientific explanation apparently worked through a person's mediation. The only "it" I can find is the culture; I mean the culture of the church which I have seen change from traditional to what I knew into non-denominational and now into these behaviors we find in the videos. My problem is that we are not developing enough new words to separate all the differences i see. For example, all of the four words I defined have counterfeits; the Bible has words for two of them, and I have heard false tongues and know about pretended miracles. Again, you never saw it before the counterfeits came up.

4. "Not exactly" is a relative term. In my experience, all the Scriptures of I Cor. apply to what I have seen, so they are close enough to what happened in the early church. The definition of prophecy is different from the OT, and our notion of science has changed the definition of miracles. The church changed the definition of apostle; I know many apostles, if I use the old definition. I think tongues are the same as the Corinthians had, again because all the Scriptures apply. I think there was more speaking of earth languages at Pentecost that happened at Corinth or that happens now.

 

[kenisyes]

1. i hope we agree that words like 'tongues, prophecy' etc are defined by what scripture says, not by our experiences.
i know we'll get to the heart of it - the definition of terms, and confirming in the scriptures.

2. one word that is a stumbling block is GIFTS.
just because we call something a gift doesn't make it a Biblical Pentecost gift.
calling things gifts does not automatically make God the giver of what we think we have.




*this is an important place to pause, i think*

what happens if i go like this (please don't be offended, if possible):



hopefully i can look at this for a bit and think about it.

1. The people I associate with believe they are the same, and desire them to be. I find no contradictions between what I read of corinthian experience and what I see now, as I said at the end of part 1.

2. I agree, we need a new word. The Greek is charismata in vs. 4, pneumatikos in vs. 1. Vs. i is "spiritual _____", maybe effects would work? charismata means favors. Gifts was chosen in the 1960's by the churches experiencing them. Choose what you like. We will make a list eventually anyway. And that's where we will need to start analyzing each activity (formerly called gift) to see if it is a gift, and of God.

 

[kenisyes]

1. i agree. but what happens if someone with no growth (experience) ends up in the middle of one of the vids (experiential) we looked at? are they likely to believe in what they experience/feel (and are told)?
sure they are.
so already we have a problem, which i guess is obvious.
i'm prolly overworking this reply, but just wanna be upfront.

2. this idea of renewal must, absolutely (for me) must be shown to be previously revealed by God, in the scriptures to occur, or i am not ready to accept it lock stock and barrel. or at all, actually.

3. what desires for what gifts?

4. it was for the foundation (pouring a foundation just like in construction) of the church at Pentecost (or rather the Cross). that foundation was laid, and now we build ON IT.

5. why is there this desire for something we think is lacking AFTER we have come to salvation? there's nothing lacking for me....early on there was, without a teacher - that struggle was really hard, and man, i been everywhere. but i can read, and i can hear the Bible preached. i don't understand what would be left to be desired?

6. they do not exist today as a fact.
this is the general cessationist position.....there are all manner of factions or disagreements within cessationism, but any acceptance of any measure of cessationism is an acknowledgment of a ceasing of the gifts poured out at Pentecost >> to some degree, which opens up the whole thing.

here's a pretty standard resource for anyone wishing to examine the question.

>> Cessationism - Cessationist - Spiritual Gifts - The Ultimate Cessationism Resource

cessationists are generally amazed that it's even an issue
for the most part, we have 'experienced' todays activities AFTER NOT seeing it in scripture.

said another way - a simple reading of the scriptures in context led no one to believe what we see today would happen. by reverse engineering what is happening, it makes perfect sense that it DID happen, but we believe it's NOT of God (as in continuation or renewal), but was foretold by Him.

1. Of course I agree. That's the main reason I don't like what I see in those videos. For balance, there is a "spiritualist church". The ministers work stage magic tricks to build the faith of the congregation and try to convince people that God works miracles through them. That's a perfect example of how I see a lot of these videos. They are damaging in so many ways.

2. Not necessarily. If the activities (formally called gifts) were stopped by men in authority, and this was a sin, for them to come back is deliverance, not renewal. It is comparable to Elijah being sent to sock it to the prophets of Baal. The sin of the nephilim lasted maybe 700 before God sent Noah, so the long wait is not unprecedented.

3. The desire to see the restoration of these activities from the days of Corinth into the life of the church. Granted they are not necessary, but we agree we all the good God is giving us.

4. If you accept that apostleship and prophecy are two of these activities, Eph 4:13 proves they are to last throughout the entire time of building.

5. Adam was told to have dominion over the earth. Rom. 8 talks about the earth groaning in agony awaiting the glorious revelation of the children of God. We hardly look glorious. In my experience, these activities help promote that part of the Christian life.

6. This is not a Scriptural argument. It is historical. The activities were noted to have stopped, and people (not God) suggested (not proved) that they were only for the first hundred years or so. This reason is now given as God-revealed. As I said, they could have been stopped by the Catholics as a matter of sin, and God is simply delivering us now. Scripture is pretty clear that it is a sin to stop prophecy or tongues, if they are the authentic ones, and that is what would have been stopped, if in fact they were stopped.

 

[kenisyes]

ken.
okay...i know some of the language issues we have.

would it be possible to be clear on what you mean here:

"3. Everything depends on whether the people know enough Scripture to know the "Lord's thing" (see #10)."

i agree a lot depends on it (maybe everything).
maybe we need to find out what the Lord's thing would be (say, each worship day, be it saturday, sunday, thursday etc).
what should people expect?

This brings us to how do we read Scripture. If I show you a Scripture that says "forbid not to speak in tongues" and say it applies to today, you can say, "it does not, because what we call tongues today is not what the Corinthians saw. Neither of us can proceed, since we don't have a time-machine to back and see.

I believe that Scripture is useful for correction teaching and reproof so the person of God of God may be perfect and furnished unto all good works. It does not say sufficient and it implies a community (someone has to be teaching and correcting) and it implies that works are to be undertaken. I see Scripture as part of an unfolding of a life of following Jesus. We learn by life reflecting Scripture and Scripture reflecting life. We also learn by sharing with each other.

I have seen (in the early days and now, if I stay away from these videos) the activities we are discussing change lives, empower people for service, and increase holiness and service in the body of Christ. It was so bad at one point, that non-Pentecostal members of mainline churches were complaining that the only volunteers for church service were the Pentecostals. The only problem anyone had with them (us) was their zeal for preaching the Word. Most non-Pentecostals were pew-warmers.

On my list of "Lord's things" are the activities these people treasured. This includes tongues, prophecy, etc., and also includes prayer, reading the Word, singing praise to God, etc. The only reason I separate into "gifts" and non-gifts, is because I can get thrown out of a church very quickly if I do not. It's just alive Christianity to me.

In retrospect, I got there only by reading the Word, trying what I thought it meant, going back and evaluating over and over again. In the process of doing this, I found some behaviors that I believe are really of God, and some people deny can happen.

 

[kenisyes]

hi ken, i skipped over #4 as it is lovely as is, and is personal



okay. we agree on not of God in those cases. that's really a victory for us, ken.

this is an interesting theory and certainly makes sense on the surface.
the only problems i have so far with it are, e.g. - was this interruption predicted in the scriptures?

the main issue i have would be can anyone stop what The Lord has willed? for example, could the disciples have stopped the Day of Pentecost from arriving?

did anything get in the way of the compiling and completion of the scriptures?
again: my Bible has a back cover.
finished.

but your theory is a good one in trying to get to the bottom of it all.
if we leave off naming entities or epochs (RC/Reformation etc); could we do a rough sketch of what happened like so:

Pentecost > unbiblical hierarchy > gifts suppressed (Spirit/Plan thwarted) > approx 1500 years of sidetracking > disintegration of hierarchy (introduction of denominations also) > Spirit active again, Gifts, Plan restarted?

would it look something like that?

zone

Exactly. Predicted in Scripture. Let's see what I can do. Maybe you know that part of the Dead Sea Scrolls was kept secret by the Cath. Ch. claiming they had not analyzed them? Finally in 1991, the Univ. of Cal. broke their contract and revealed the microfilm backup copy. Within this copy is the "prophecy of the wheel". This prophecy says, first that there will be a new revelation of the church of God, and then that leaders will arise who will mislead the church for the sake of greed. The Catholics had taught that the only existing copy was written in 400AD, as a protest against what they had done. The problem is, that if it's in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the prophecy was written before the fall of Jerusalem, and thus before there ever was a Catholic Church, by pople who had likely never seen Christianity as any more than a small Jewish sect.

That's not Scripture, but it's really interesting. And it gives us a direction. You have only to look at Ezek. 34 to see what the Lord will do to such shepherds. You have only to look at Jesus' teaching about false shepherds. I know many Protestants in the first 300 years after Luther taught that the Cath. Ch. was the anti-Christ and had ruled for a thousand years.

So we have Scripture that there are false shepherds, and we have feeling on the part of part of the people of God, before and after, that those Scriptures apply to what actually happened. Then, we have the book of Revelation, with a count in Daniel, that allow for the evil on earth to happen for a long time.

That's as close as I can come. If I had direct Scripture, I would never have stated it as a possibility, but as a fact.

 

[kenisyes]

then according to my position we have a serious influx of deceiving spirits.

here again, i'm sola scriptura (not minus the Holy Spirit as some may be quick to suggest). so there's never any question about authority.

it was extremely bizarre, but i'm not sorry it happened - in hindsight it was a good thing (for me).
there was an incredible time of learning with a renewed mind. everything was kind of in place to allow for that year.

As according to mine.

Then you will like Scriptures like we are a kingdom of priests. call no man your father (which is what the Catholics call their headship). There is no Scripture supporting weekly sermons, but several supporting meetings like the corinthians had, with or without the several activities we are talking about. (we still have music, sharing, encouragement). There is no Scripture supporting a pastor running a church (the word is not used in Eph 4). All of these address my authority point. God's plan is believers share the authority for how the worship is to go in measure with their God-given abilities, whether those abilities include prophecy and tongues or not.

I'm watching out for precious souls including yours, if I can help it any. Actually, I bet you're watching out for mine, too.

 

[Red33]

why do you continue in this?
why are you trying to shame me away from doing what i am convicted by the Spirit to do?
i wonder why you're not making any effort whatsoever to understand this matter for what it is.

If there are false teachers and false prophets and false doctrine then there can be a false faith that leads to false convictions with another Christ, another Spirit and another gospel to preach, that just might have some leaven in it. Doctrine without a cross, without the blood and without mercy and grace and the fruit of the Spirit is going to be a dead letter no matter what kind of intellectual conviction is professed or pursued under any presupposition. People have conviction to get saved through Christ and never do it and will be spending eternity separated from God forever. The Pharisees had the conviction of the law and were very zealous in their conviction. Some had it according to knowledge and others not, but that did not save them or give them any righteousness.

So there is conviction that may be according to knowledge but has no fruit. It all comes down to one thing, laying your life down and taking it up when God leads. Are you going to tell me I am wet behind the ears and call me a hypocrite over and over until someone is effected by your rhetoric or are you going to humble yourself under the mighty hand of God through the cross and build up the body of Christ by faith, and call those things that are not as though they were (Rom 4:17)? Ever tried that? Try it and when you do believe God for a promise because He is faithful to what He has promised. You called upon His name for salvation in that manner, then why not believe the same about others in like manner, even if it goes against your intellectual convictions that have no power without a cross.

The great problem in the church today is that we think we are too mature in our understanding to be able to trust God for His promises as a little child and when we see others doing that in a way that might offend us, we have to intellectualize it and discredit their faith and take away what they are trusting God for. Perhaps those are the ones that Jesus was referring to in (Mt 18:1-8) when He said...

1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receive th me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 Woe unto the world because of offenses! for it must needs be that offenses come; but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh!
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

 

[zone]

If there are false teachers and false prophets and false doctrine then there can be a false faith that leads to false convictions with another Christ, another Spirit and another gospel to preach, that just might have some leaven in it. Doctrine without a cross, without the blood and without mercy and grace and the fruit of the Spirit is going to be a dead letter no matter what kind of intellectual conviction is professed or pursued under any presupposition. People have conviction to get saved through Christ and never do it and will be spending eternity separated from God forever. The Pharisees had the conviction of the law and were very zealous in their conviction. Some had it according to knowledge and others not, but that did not save them or give them any righteousness.

So there is conviction that may be according to knowledge but has no fruit. It all comes down to one thing, laying your life down and taking it up when God leads. Are you going to tell me I am wet behind the ears and call me a hypocrite over and over until someone is effected by your rhetoric or are you going to humble yourself under the mighty hand of God through the cross and build up the body of Christ by faith, and call those things that are not as though they were (Rom 4:17)? Ever tried that? Try it and when you do believe God for a promise because He is faithful to what He has promised. You called upon His name for salvation in that manner, then why not believe the same about others in like manner, even if it goes against your intellectual convictions that have no power without a cross.

The great problem in the church today is that we think we are too mature in our understanding to be able to trust God for His promises as a little child and when we see others doing that in a way that might offend us, we have to intellectualize it and discredit their faith and take away what they are trusting God for. Perhaps those are the ones that Jesus was referring to in (Mt 18:1-8) when He said...

1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receive th me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 Woe unto the world because of offenses! for it must needs be that offenses come; but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh!
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

oh please spare me.
i know you very well.
you can move along anytime.

 

[zone]

As according to mine.

Then you will like Scriptures like we are a kingdom of priests. call no man your father (which is what the Catholics call their headship). There is no Scripture supporting weekly sermons, but several supporting meetings like the corinthians had, with or without the several activities we are talking about. (we still have music, sharing, encouragement). There is no Scripture supporting a pastor running a church (the word is not used in Eph 4). All of these address my authority point. God's plan is believers share the authority for how the worship is to go in measure with their God-given abilities, whether those abilities include prophecy and tongues or not.

I'm watching out for precious souls including yours, if I can help it any. Actually, I bet you're watching out for mine, too.

thanks ken.
i'm seeing a combination of things. including both of us confirmed in our positions.
it's curious that there's a fairly consistent response in the charismatic world....whatever actual videos or testimonials; apologetics or exposes are presented uncovering the 'exotic' (pagan) appearance/nature of many of these activities, the charismatic will say 'but that's not our group'.

yet it is all traced back to same movements; the same 'leaders' and so on. so maybe not making it personal is the way to go here....but there's really no way around some specifics coming up.

in any case, it seems clear you're not going to get all offended and huffy, so i'm happy to keep going in our discussion. being truthful about what i believe and know (and don't know) is important to me, i think it is to you as well.

i'd like to present as i go links to resources which speak well to the cessationist position, and you can read them if you like, if you're not already familiar with them.

i should say that i am a confessional Lutheran....and i get why luther believed what he did about the RC...i myself though do not necessarily bring his belief forward to today - in terms of laying all evils at the RC's doorstep. not at all.

i'll also say i'm aware now that scripture is not the ultimate authority for you.
this is problematic, but not surprising.

we'll do this, i'm sure.

tty soon
zone

 

[zone]

 

[Red33]

oh please spare me.
i know you very well.
you can move along anytime.

Familiarity is another problem that plagues believers who think a little too much of themselves without a cross. So how well do you know me Zone? Let everyone know just what you think of me deep down in that carnal nature of yours. Say whatever pleases you even if it's justified evil. You never stop saying evil about others when you felt justified, so don't stop with me. Let it rip Zone, after all you just might get some support. If you can talk about other groups as you do, then surely I am grasshopper in your sight ready for the kill shot. Whatever evil you might want to inflict on others will only promote them in the kingdom and that is a 'thus saith the Lord'... Whatever you meant for evil God meant it for good. That's how a Spirit-filled believer deals with evil. They are not offended or touched by it and they look at it as a promotion. Promote me Zone, if you really want to do something good, but if you want to build me up in Christ and those other groups that you can't stand to identify with, then minister grace and let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth and that goes for the others as well, just in case they were wondering.

 

[zone]

Familiarity is another problem that plagues believers who think a little too much of themselves without a cross. So how well do you know me Zone? Let everyone know just what you think of me deep down in that carnal nature of yours. Say whatever pleases you even if it's justified evil. You never stop saying evil about others when you felt justified, so don't stop with me. Let it rip Zone, after all you just might get some support. If you can talk about other groups as you do, then surely I am grasshopper in your sight ready for the kill shot. Whatever evil you might want to inflict on others will only promote them in the kingdom and that is a 'thus saith the Lord'... Whatever you meant for evil God meant it for good. That's how a Spirit-filled believer deals with evil. They are not offended or touched by it and they look at it as a promotion. Promote me Zone, if you really want to do something good, but if you want to build me up in Christ and those other groups that you can't stand to identify with, then minister grace and let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth and that goes for the others as well, just in case they were wondering.

my dear red...why do you want to get yourself all upset over what i'm doing?
i'm pretty much on one thread....it's about subjects you don't like, so i don't know why you want to upset yourself.

you've already broken fellowship with me. i'm fine with that.
why do you want conflict?

i do not want conflict with you.

please just put me on ignore or at least let's not talk at all. that's for the best.

okay redster?
God Bless and take care.
zone.

 

[Red33]

If there are false teachers and false prophets and false doctrine then there can be a false faith that leads to false convictions with another Christ, another Spirit and another gospel to preach, that just might have some leaven in it. Doctrine without a cross, without the blood and without mercy and grace and the fruit of the Spirit is going to be a dead letter no matter what kind of intellectual conviction is professed or pursued under any presupposition. People have conviction to get saved through Christ and never do it and will be spending eternity separated from God forever. The Pharisees had the conviction of the law and were very zealous in their conviction. Some had it according to knowledge and others not, but that did not save them or give them any righteousness.

So there is conviction that may be according to knowledge but has no fruit. It all comes down to one thing, laying your life down and taking it up when God leads. Are you going to tell me I am wet behind the ears and call me a hypocrite over and over until someone is effected by your rhetoric or are you going to humble yourself under the mighty hand of God through the cross and build up the body of Christ by faith, and call those things that are not as though they were (Rom 4:17)? Ever tried that? Try it and when you do believe God for a promise because He is faithful to what He has promised. You called upon His name for salvation in that manner, then why not believe the same about others in like manner, even if it goes against your intellectual convictions that have no power without a cross.

The great problem in the church today is that we think we are too mature in our understanding to be able to trust God for His promises as a little child and when we see others doing that in a way that might offend us, we have to intellectualize it and discredit their faith and take away what they are trusting God for. Perhaps those are the ones that Jesus was referring to in (Mt 18:1-8) when He said...

1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receive th me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 Woe unto the world because of offenses! for it must needs be that offenses come; but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh!
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

oh please spare me.
i know you very well.
you can move along anytime.

Is this what you kick against because you feel your beyond all this?

 

[zone]

i'll take a few days off....that's the safest thing.