NAR, Cessationism, Darby, Scofield, Dispensationalism, Zionism and related theories

Abiding · Dec 2, 2012

Same old stuff, same old crap, same old spirit. You want to get sucked in and believe this stuff, go right ahead. It's your soul and you can do what you want with it, right? If you want to corrupt it, who has the right to stop you. But I don't have any discernment and have no wisdom and the Spirit of God is not alive in me. Don't listen to what I have to say because I am a hypocrite and don't know what I am talking about. Red, there is no time ive said or thought you to be a hypocrite so please dont slander me by inference. And you know i know you have much deep wisdom in the grace of God and the Gospel. But this is one area you might be wrong in. Both Jesus and Paul spent much time in this area pointing out false teachings its in scripture. Id guess more of it existed in real life.

As far as those Jews in Bearea who heard Paul preached Christ from the OT scriptures, it's not what you and so many others think. Paul revealed Christ to these Bereans through the OT scriptures that they had gone over many times on their own but never came under conviction concerning Christ. It was not until the Spirit, who had prepared them to receive the word more readily and who opened their understanding through Paul's preaching, did they see Christ in those OT scriptures. Many got saved right in the synagogue through what Paul had taught them concerning Christ with those scriptures and others went home and diligently searched those scriptures to see with their eyes of understanding that Christ was preached and were also saved. This kept on happening among the Beareans on a daily basis and also among honourable women who were Greek and many were saved and not just a few.

These Bereans were not being analytical about the word and scriptures Paul preached to them, to see if these things were true or not. They had never seen Christ in the OT word of scriptures until it was revealed to them though Paul's preaching and they had to keep going over it every day until that conviction lead them to a saving knowledge of Christ. These Beareans did not 'try' the word that Paul preached to them, they received it readily (without reservation) and came under the conviction of it and were saved because of it. It is like the gospel that we are to preach, people must hear it and receive it by faith and believe it in their heart through the conviction of the Spirit. They don't go around analyzing it to see if it's true or not, they believe it and get saved by it.

........................Red your pulling most of this out of your ear. Theres not enough in the record of scripture for you to come to all this. They checked out to see if what Paul was teaching was true and were commended for it. The rest is your added bias. Same goes for you too Red, do as you must. I do have much respect for you. But that wont stop me from responding to you if you derail.

loveme1 · Dec 2, 2012

Red33 said:

Same old stuff, same old crap, same old spirit. You want to get sucked in and believe this stuff, go right ahead. It's your soul and you can do what you want with it, right? If you want to corrupt it, who has the right to stop you. But I don't have any discernment and have no wisdom and the Spirit of God is not alive in me. Don't listen to what I have to say because I am a hypocrite and don't know what I am talking about.

As far as those Jews in Bearea who heard Paul preached Christ from the OT scriptures, it's not what you and so many others think. Paul revealed Christ to these Bereans through the OT scriptures that they had gone over many times on their own but never came under conviction concerning Christ. It was not until the Spirit, who had prepared them to receive the word more readily and who opened their understanding through Paul's preaching, did they see Christ in those OT scriptures. Many got saved right in the synagogue through what Paul had taught them concerning Christ with those scriptures and others went home and diligently searched those scriptures to see with their eyes of understanding that Christ was preached and were also saved. This kept on happening among the Beareans on a daily basis and also among honourable women who were Greek and many were saved and not just a few.

These Bereans were not being analytical about the word and scriptures Paul preached to them, to see if these things were true or not. They had never seen Christ in the OT word of scriptures until it was revealed to them though Paul's preaching and they had to keep going over it every day until that conviction lead them to a saving knowledge of Christ. These Beareans did not 'try' the word that Paul preached to them, they received it readily (without reservation) and came under the conviction of it and were saved because of it. It is like the gospel that we are to preach, people must hear it and receive it by faith and believe it in their heart through the conviction of the Spirit. They don't go around analyzing it to see if it's true or not, they believe it and get saved by it.

Red seek him and ask him to reveal the Truth to you so that you may be Blessed with all those things you declare not to have..

Are you loyal to your beliefs or to your Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah?

Remember how Paul believed he knew the Truth and did not know he was a victim of the Traditions of men.

Red33 · Dec 2, 2012

Perhaps when Zone gets back she can share with all the new comers the simulated rapture that going to take place in the sky. That should be really interesting and she can tie it in with all her other beliefs as an amillennialist and how all these promises that God made with Israel were fulfilled by the first coming of Christ and that Israel has no future with God and is just a goner with no hope. Let's not forget that she is a big advocate that the church is presently in the millennial reign of Christ (right now at present) and the (1000 yrs) is not really a (1000 yrs) but just symbolic and certainly not future.

According to her Satan (the devil) right now is all bound up and not active on the earth and can't deceive anyone. It doesn't matter what Paul or Peter said about the devil seeking who he can devour or that he hindered Paul who taught that we should resist him and not give place to the devil, because they were already in the millennial reign. That puts much of what we have in the NT from these apostles as having no present application in the church. When they preached and wrote these letters concerning these things, according to Zone, Satan was already bound putting (Rev 20:1-6) in the present and not future.

You would think that such an intellectual coherent person like Zone who has put in so much into her studies just can't be wrong about all these things or anything else for that matter. It is no wonder she takes such liberty to say the things she does about so many groups and men of God she disagrees with and considers them to be evil. I say these things to her face and she can respond any way she wishes, but those she goes after (not me or those on this site) they have no ability to respond, so she feels free to say what she pleases and gives you plenty of literature support to justify her position.

Zone, I suppose that all believers in the church for the pat (2000 yrs) who have learned to resist the devil and not give place or be ignorant of his devices have been doing so through ignorance and not through the wisdom of God. What kind of deception do you call that Zone? Perhaps self deception or disillusionment because of ignorance of what the scriptures teach. Makes me wonder just what spirit has taught you these things.

kenisyes · Dec 2, 2012

zone said:

I am told that in the Large Catechism, Luther predicts that within one generation after he dies, that Lutherans will worship in their homes, and not need the formal structure of church. If I understand this right, this is another statement about the nature of authority.

I recalled this morning what the differences were. When I came into this, people simply wanted more of Jesus, so they asked for more of the Holy Spirit. Whether they understood correctly from Scripture or not, they got a stronger prayer life, more desire to read the Word, more desire to attend worship and to serve. Many got something they thought was tongues and prophecy also. It wasn't long before other church-goers, who did not like their zeal, wanted them to stop being so strong. The cessationist position gave them a reason t push the first group out. The first group divided into two. Many continued in what they were doing, opening new churches. Others got angry and said "I'll show you. I'm going to take what God gave me, and change the world. Then you will now how wrong you are". This has set up a battle between cessationists and this new group, who is making all these videos. That's why you keep hearing "that is not my group". There are two groups, and the one that is not of God is making all the noise. I recall Paul talking about "super apostles" bragging about everything God has given them, and how he considers himself inferior to them in nothing (2 Cor. 11:13 and surrounding context). That's how I feel when I hear about these people; they are doing the same thing.

I think we agree that if God wanted to restore the "gifts" of Pentecost, we would be glad to see them return. We just don't agree whether He has done so. But just like Elijah's time, there was one Elijah and 700 prophets of Baal, and it even made Elijah think that all the Israelites were following the wrong group. God had to give Elijah the count (I Kings 19:18).

We'll save Scripture authority for another day, because people get so many things from it that make them disagree.

Red33 · Dec 2, 2012

Abiding said:

I studied every single word and every verb in that passage and what transpired before, during and after-wards and it is not bias but is what actually happened in Berea with those Jews concerning the word Paul preached and how they responded to it. Many commentators never study every word and just accept the most common understanding and use it to justify the points they want to make. You can't use God's word in that manner lest it be handled deceitfully either with intent or ignorantly. You think it is added bias on my part, then you labour and study every word of it and come to your own conclusions and don't be lazy and think it is not needed. I got into studying it because so many believers use that passage to justify their analytical spirit about what others teach. I've heard it hundred times without exaggeration, even now most recently from you. The right way to use that passage is to encourage others to be a ready mind to receive the word and hunger after Christ and His righteousness by rehearsing the word over and over to let it dwell richly in the heart to be soundly convinced that all that is written (these things) are so or yea and amen.

kenisyes · Dec 2, 2012

zone said:

To complete the picture, we need to add that the source of the mystical eastern religions is covered in Rom. 1:20-26. There is an element of God even in those religions. I gave you my take on the origin of these things in the last post.

unclefester · Dec 2, 2012

Abiding said:

Ditto. And I would still like a response in regards to my earlier inquiry as to whether "all teachers of the gospel" are worthy of our compassion and understanding ... even if we believe them to be wrong. This thread is not about any of us on a personal level. It is about whether or not we believe that the gospel is being manipulated and claiming to say something it has not said. And not one iota of this convo diminshes or attempts to strip the Word of it's power. None of us could do that even if it was our intent ... which it is not. God is not mocked. And it is for this very reason that each of us needs to concern ourselves with what is and what isn't His truth. I do not and will not take any direct or indirect innuendo as a personal insult. This topic is not about me ... or any of you.

kenisyes · Dec 2, 2012

I keep thinking I should add about Scripture being the ultimate authority. It is, I just don't use words without experience. "By their fruits you will know them" carries greater weight for me than most. Any two people who read Scripture do this, mostly without realizing it. Of all 1100 pages, we pick that parts that speak to us the most strongly to weigh more heavily. That's why we get so many different opinions.

loveme1 · Dec 2, 2012

2 Corinthians 4

Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. 8We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 9Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; 10Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 11For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. 12So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

13We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 14Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. 15For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.

16For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 17For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

loveme1 · Dec 2, 2012

Receive understanding only from the True source of Light.

Abiding · Dec 2, 2012

Red33 said:

Red first get your facts straight, neither zone or any amil would say that
Satan is bound in any other way but what is stipulated in Revelations 20.

But i see now this is all eschatologically emotional for you as a pretribber....ok well that makes sense. Maybe you should go start a thread on that.

Also zone would NEVER say nor would any amils say God is done with Israel or that any prophecies will not come to pass unless they have come to pass. They may tell you who true Israel is, maybe thats what you dont like but nevertheless that doesnt make it not true.

Red you can say whatever you want...BUT...if you think false doctrine and demonic presence in the church and men that are entirely deluded and tearing lives and families apart are really not there and its just a scewed perspective from an eschatological position....well thats just silly. Although i can attest that your eschatologal position will scew your world view, its doesnt change provable facts.

Yes this forum can handle possibilities and speculations and hunches. Which is ok by me. For some it
may be far fetched with little evidence. But why do people believe we have a war on terror with
absolutely no evidence. Which is bankrupting our nation and costing us lives...noone seems to care about that.

Anyway so you have disagreement with any who are not pretrib. I understand that Red most of my friends are pretrib. Im so glad they dont get hostile with me over it.

Abiding · Dec 2, 2012

Red33 said:

Red, first i wasnt discounting all that you said. I can see that may have been very well true for many. Others it wasnt. The clear passage says they searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul was preaching was true...was what the OT said. See? My application was very acceptable.

There are many parrallel passages that agree with the same thing. What is a hiring Red?

Jesus modeled it in Matthew 4 at the very start of His ministry.

Jesus and Paul and the other Apostles all gave warnings. We are told to mark them. What is so wrong?
Even names were made publically and recorded in scripture...so theres plenty of grounds for it.

Wait...why am i even doing this? Red...you prove what you dont like here is wrong
that would take less time.

unclefester · Dec 2, 2012

Red33 said:

This is beyond the pale Red. Even for a hothead like you. Zone is not the only one here who believes what she believes. And this is not a competition. It is a discussion. If it's too hot for you, there is an exit from this kitchen.

Abiding · Dec 2, 2012

Red ...do you think the reformation was ok?

Abiding · Dec 2, 2012

was pondering on starting a thread on gifts
checking the company to see if they have this model
in a dark green

loveme1 · Dec 2, 2012

May the Truth bring peace between us all.

unclefester · Dec 2, 2012

Abiding said:

Nail on head. "Everything is allowed .... everything is fruitful" .... cept' this one. Or so it would seem

Oh well. I still love our forum "hothead"

And agree with him on most everything else

Abiding · Dec 2, 2012

unclefester said:

Hes got amazing gifts for sure. And im blessed to have him here. Thankyou Lord.

Red33 · Dec 2, 2012

Abiding said:

These warnings included only the Pharisees, the Sadducees and the scribes and any related sect to these and then within the church, those members (by name) as to who was causing trouble and much harm and departed from what they were taught and some even going back into the world. That is agreed and with understanding. Even with that we think evil of no man. Our job today in the body of Christ is not to go around exposing all those we consider to be off in the church and label them unfruitful works of darkness. I know of a few local churches that God raised up that 'Walter Martian' and other 'cult exposers' put the old 'cult' label upon because they taught things about delegated authority and the local church. These ministries were producing much fruit but those 'cult watcher groups' failed to examine the fruit and only what others were griping about. I don't care how much you may try and persuade me, these 'cult watchers' are not of God and never have been, but we want to sanction our own activity in doing this in the church and justify it. If these men and groups can examine others should not their own lives be examined? Are we not taught by the word to examine OURSELVES to see if we be in the faith according to what we have been taught?

If others are teaching contrary to what we have been taught through sound doctrine then as individuals we dismiss it and hold fast to sound doctrine, take up our cross and walk in the light of truth we have been given. The light we walk in will expose and manifest what did not come from the light. We don't have to go around and expose, just preach and walk in the truth and the Holy Spirit will convict men's hearts and if we don't take up our cross and let death work in us we will be unqualified from following Christ and will go off another way and call it being a Christian. Remember this Abiding, the life that Christ lived here on earth was an offence to so many, even His own immediate family that he was raised in. How many times was He accused of going against the law and disobeying the Sabbath. If you lived at that time and only knew Him a s a man, would you have thought Him a little off when He mixed spittle with some dirt making clay on the Sabbath and rubbed it in the man's eyes and told him to go down and wash it off in the pool of Siloam. Read (Jn 9) and tell me what you see. I think the Holy Spirit might have a message in it just for you.

loveme1 · Dec 2, 2012

Who are the pharisees of our time?

Did history repeat itself?

NAR, Cessationism, Darby, Scofield, Dispensationalism, Zionism and related theories

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