HELL

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cfultz3

Guest
#41
So some wicked in Hades could have heard the gospel and believe in Jesus and become born again and get saved
Tek,

He went to Hades to save the righteous dead of the Law, those who waited for their Messiah. He did not suffer to go to any other part of Hades except Paradise (Abraham's Bosom). The very same place He spoke of to the theif. He did not go to the Lawless, but to those righteous and yet, was held captive by the sentencing of the Law.

There is no offer of salvation after death, we make that choice while here and living.
 
Dec 1, 2012
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#42
And did Jesus suffer to have went to the lowest parts of Hell? Nah. But, He sure did deliver those who WERE in the first part of Hell. There was no need for Him to go further down, seeing that those He sought to deliver was in Abraham's Bosom.
Mark 12:24-27

24*And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

25*For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

26*And as touching the dead, that THEY rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

27*He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the LIVING: ye therefore do greatly err.


Romans 14:8-9

8*For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

9*For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the DEAD AND LIVING
 
Jul 12, 2012
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#43
Hummm. So the death of the Christ is nulled now? All will we fine in the end? There is no propose to faith? Better yet, so the death of the Christ is nulled now?
No it is not nulled. It is what changes you now, because you embraced the change, instead of later in a lake of fire, because you rebelled against it.

It is a lake, as if to indicate that one will be immersed in it.
It is a lake, as if to indicate that the only turbulence comes from those within.
It is a lake, as if to indicate that one can see their reflection in it.
It is fire, a witness to one's wrongs. Sins revisited sevenfold, to utter completion, the amount necessary to bring unwanted correction.
It is fire, as with Meshach and company, the burning bush, the brass legs of Yeshua, consuming anything that is not Set Apart.
It is a touchstoning, a continuing cycle of refining and testing unto purity.
We are told elsewhere that it is unquenchable, meaning one cannot stop the process.
That does not mean the fire can't run out of fuel. The source of the unburning entity concept is generated by the prerequisite mistranslation of "forever."
And when it says, in the presence of the messengers, I unfortunately cannot convey this experience, except to say that it goes to the very core of one's being, stripped totally naked.
And as a fulfilled prophecy:
The smoke (tool of concealment, signaling, and choking) of that touchstoning process, ascends beyond comprehension right now and for many previous years with the widespread misunderstanding of the process.

If I come through fear, that's enough to make me call upon Jesus, I don't need to believe in something as overboard as eternal torment, which is proposed to be the outcome if I were to call "unfair. I disagree with my having been created.", try to escape unsuccessfully by suicide and be resurrected into eternal torment anyway.
Which is what I believe men will cry during their lake of fire experience, wishing they had not been created, unable to do anything about it till it's over.

If it makes any middle ground, I don't doubt for a moment that the lake of fire experience won't feel like an eternity. I can't imagine the terror of having my own sins revisited to me one by one, as if I were emotionally and physically injected into the perspective of my victims. After the first few, I believe I would begin screaming "uncle", "Jesus", etc, but, according to scripture, again it is unquenchable. So if the words "eternity" and "torment" must be preserved as such, they may still be said to apply in this viewpoint.

Or who knows, it might be a cakewalk? Not what I've been reading by far.

"universal reconciliation" is the term I use, rather than "universal salvation"

Peace.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
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#44
Not for me personally. I base this "theology" on a prayer that I finally got tired of being scared to make.
It went something like "Father, I have struggled with this hell concept all of my life, and I do not understand how people were created with a foreknowledge of their doom. Won't you fix everyone, seeing that you are able? I will give my life in service of such a will."
Make of it what you will, but the indescribable "voice" from "heaven" that replied was "Fear nothing! I will do this!"
With such authority and peace, that I dare questioned no more on the matter, as I had just been properly baptized with fire (a witness to my own wrongs), water (relief), and the Set Apart Spirit, in the name, the cause, the essence, the very "witness" of Yeshua ("Salvation!").
I then began to read the entire bible as if God wants to destroy the evil part of each man, starting with me, rather than to destroy the evil man himself and somehow deem me good.
In effect, I am reading a different story than I was taught, one that turns otherwise forgotten and "fluffy" stories in the bible into hardcore mirrors of what the "bigger" stories and the prophets say.
The story continues to repeat to this day.
And some of them get pretty precise and hard hitting, when compared to modern times.
People are searching symbols for enemies, when the symbols represent their enemies within.
An example I used earlier today with someone:
Making and worshiping a golden calf, is to single out the sacrifice and burden aspect of YHWH and worship that single aspect as an idol or false god, instead of the entire YHWH. This was their response to Him saving them and leading them out of Egypt (slavery). And that sounds undeniably familiar to what's happening today. "Non-prophetic" stories are indeed also prophetic.
Sure, by all means, we must praise Him because of what He did, but is he a lifeguard or a daddy that I can talk to in my normal, trying to grow up, childlike voice?

It would be like having a best friend who only liked you because you were an awesome lifeguard, instead of liking you because you love each other and have true communion.

Making children to pass through the fire to Moloch (going by historical detailed account), perfectly matches the description of heaven and hell that my great-grandma gave me when I was a child.
Parents required to put their children in a fire in order to please a god who required that loud praise music be played to conceal the cries of the burning children, while the parents were forbidden to shed a tear.
If the parent's cried, the sacrifice was nullified. And we're talking about an abomination that God's chosen people took part in, that He said never even would have came to His mind.

When this was revealed to me, I instantly had a flashback to that moment when she told me about heaven and hell, that the bad people burn forever in hell, and the good people live forever with God and play music and never feel sad. And I felt the shudder in my current time and body as though I were back in my body feeling it again at that very moment as a previously innocent child that thought God's entirety is that he brings babies to our pet rabbits in the night and takes dead people to a better place. A fearful and shocking memory that was almost bodily. A deadly memory with nothing but death at the end of it's fantasy. Myself, required to be happy, while my uncle Johnny and others burned forever.

As far as the "goat and sheep", "left and right", separation issue...
Being simply the separation between those who were changed by following Jesus, vs. those who were changed by the punishment. Those who weren't exposed to Jesus, or exposed improperly, being judged based on the works of their heart and making the best out of their particular circumstances, in order to determine if they actually did follow Jesus without even knowing about Him. Because their sins were forgiven.

You see, I have this very serious problem with the descriptions of the punishment contradicting themselves when interpreted with tradition. Is it fire or is it worms? Is it destruction or is it shame? Is punishment without correction still considered punishment, if evil is destroyed, how will the people in eternal torment be able to continue to blaspheme, Etc.
The only way out of such a thing with tradition is to lump it all into the word hell and then say that it's too "high" to really understand and brush it off as "well, it's as bad as you can imagine and goes on forever."
To make such things coexist takes more imagination I believe, than to imagine that it simply applies to my "bad side" instead of my enemies, who I am instructed by YHWH Himself, to love, in the name of "Salvation."
Which is exactly what I was doing, to the point of soaking my pillow, when I made that prayer, my friend.
KJV did a terrible job with the words "eternity" and "forever."
Seeing this quickly trampled many other graven images.

Love them all.

The messenger of YHWH goes before us.

Peace.
The Bible does never teach that hell is a place where people burn for ever and ever. Rather it is the final punishment of the wicked who refuse the Gift of God. IT is the second death. The end of all sin and sinners. I must do a thread showing this very thing.
 

tek

Banned
Sep 25, 2012
283
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#45
I find it difficult to conclude from the above verses that Jesus went down into 'hell' and preached to spirits in prison there after He died on the cross.

Every denomination has troubles with some passage in the Bible because it doesn’t fit very well with their "established" doctrine. Passages like that are like a red rag for a bull sometimes. For Jehovah’s Witnesses for example it’s John 1:1 because it says the Word is God and Jesus is the Word and Jehovah’s Witnesses hate to admit that Jesus is God and so they just twist John 1:1 in every possible direction just to escape the unavoidable conclusion. Well for Baptists a passage like that is 1 Pet 3:18-19.


Let’s go through 1 Pet 3:18-19

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh,


When did Jesus die in the flesh? Clearly on the Cross at the time of crucifixion. It’s not at the time of Adam and Eve or the time of Moses or the time of Noah. This whole passage is obviously about the time of his death on the cross.

but quickened by the Spirit:

When did Jesus became “quickened”? When did it happen? Did it happen at the time of Adam and Eve? Did it happen at the time of Moses? Did it happen at the time of Noah? No. It happened at the time of crucifixion. This should be obvious. This whole theme is about what happened the instant Jesus died on the cross when he cried out “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."

By which also he went and preached

Who went to preach? Was it Adam? Was it Moses? Was it Noah? No. Who was it? Who is that person? It's Jesus. It wasn’t Spirit preaching. It wasn’t Father preaching. It wasn’t Noah preaching. It was Jesus himself preaching.

Right after Jesus died on the cross where did he go? Did he go to heaven? Did he go to a party? Did he travel into the past to Noah’s time? No way!!!(that would be such an weird explanation). He went to the heart of the earth (as in Mathew 12:40)

So when Jesus got quickened where did He preach? Did he preach in heaven? Did he preach in a temple? Did he preach at Noah’s party? No. He preached in the heart of the earth.

unto the spirits in prison;

Who are spirits and what is Prison? At this point we are not sure so let’s read further

Which sometime were disobedient,

Notice the word “sometimes”. We’d like to know when these spirits were disobedient

when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,

So when were these spirits disobedient? They were disobedient during Noah’s time!

So who are these disobedient spirits? Are they demons? No way! Why would Jesus preach to demons? They must be human beings that lived during Noah’s time who were so wicked that God decided to destroy the whole world except Noah and his seven friends.

while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

So Jesus went to preach to the multitudes of spirits who were disobedient during the days of Noah while the ark was preparing.

He went to Hades to save the righteous dead of the Law, those who waited for their Messiah.
You seem to be a bit confused about Hades. Hell of the Old Testament is Sheol and Sheol is abode of disembodied spirits. It is split into two sections: Hades and Paradise (or Abraham’s bosom). Hades is a place where wicked await for Judgement day (in that sense Hades is like a Prison). When a wicked person dies he goes straight to Hades. Paradise (or Abraham’s bosom) is a place where good people like Abraham or Solomon used to go to. Nowadays good people (Christians) go straight to be with Jesus.

He went ….to save the righteous dead of the Law, those who waited for their Messiah.

Jesus went to preach to the multitudes of spirits who were disobedient during the days of Noah while the ark was preparing. All of them were in Hades. So Jesus went to Hades to preach to the wicked

The place for any person who caries sin is Hades. Jesus carried the sins of the whole world! So Jesus went to Hades simply because he carried so much sin. Here is the verse

Isaiah 53:10 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Also Paradise is not in the heart of the earth but Hades is and Jesus did go in there according to this verse

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Hades is also the lower part of the earth and Jesus did go in there. Here is the verse

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended , what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#46
Mark 12:24-27

24*And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

25*For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. -- is it not true that when we all are arisen, we shall be souls and not flesh? This does not justify that all will receive everlasting life in glorified body, as those on the right hand of the Judgment Seat. Yet, it is told that the souls of the wicked shall have an EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord. Tell me, if everlasting is everlasting for the righteous, how then does it change for the wicked? And if their judgment is destruction, how then can it be rebuilt when it was the Lord who has done this?

26*And as touching the dead, that THEY rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? -- yes, the resurrection of all souls shall be. But, we must not forget other Scriptures which tells us what happens to the souls of man with an everlasting result.

27*He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the LIVING: ye therefore do greatly err. -- and as they sought not God in their lives, so shall it be that God will not be the God of those partaking of the second death, seeing that God is not in the Darkness of that Kingdom, but is in the Light of His Kingdom and forevermore shall they receive outer darkness with the fallen angels.


Romans 14:8-9

8*For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. --'WE", certainly spoken to those of faith of Christ. Certainly not spoken to those outside of His Body. I must ask, 'what then is the purpose of Christ's faith (persuasion, religion system), if all will be delivered from the second death?' Do you not know that that saying all will be RE-united to the fellowship we had with God before the fall is the same as implying God was at fault for having thrown us out in the first place? Ponder: what was the purpose of having exiled us from His presence if, in the end, even the wicked shall once again know Him as Friend?

9*For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the DEAD AND LIVING -- Indeed, it will be the Son sitting as Lord who shall pass judgment, and what of all which is considered lord shall stand against Him? Is He not indeed the Lord of lords?
 

tek

Banned
Sep 25, 2012
283
2
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#47
lol, I could post the whole Bible but just there is no space
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#48
Tek = black me = purple

You seem to be a bit confused about Hades. Hell of the Old Testament is Sheol and Sheol is abode of disembodied spirits. -- yes

It is split into two sections: Hades and Paradise (or Abraham’s bosom). -- from the same study you have made, I agree there are at least 2 sections.

Hades is a place where wicked await for Judgement day (in that sense Hades is like a Prison). -- yes

When a wicked person dies he goes straight to Hades. -- yes

Paradise (or Abraham’s bosom) is a place where good people like Abraham or Solomon used to go to. -- yes

Nowadays good people (Christians) go straight to be with Jesus. -- yes



Jesus went to preach to the multitudes of spirits who were disobedient during the days of Noah while the ark was preparing. -- no. He went to preach to the righteous dead of the Law, those who were in Paradise. We have but two Covenants and if one did not pertook of either while living, why then are they given an opportunity when they are yet dead? As speaking of those disobedient from Noah's day, is it not said that only 8 souls were saved? If it is true that Jesus offered salvation to them from Noah's day, then it must be necessary for Him to once again to offer salvation to those who also did not receive salvation from the coming destruction. And that leads to nowhere but that we can live as we please, in direct opposition of the Cross, and yet laugh at the spilt blood of the Lamb, knowing that such shall also receive everlasting life, even though they have received an EVERLASTING destruction from the Lord. Again I ask, why change the meaning of the word 'everlasting' when it comes to the wicked? Doing so tells us that our 'everlasting life' will not be forevermore, but temporary.


All of them were in Hades. So Jesus went to Hades to preach to the wicked -- did God's Holy One see corruption? First you say that He only went to Paradise, now you are saying that He saw corruption. As they who were in Paradise did not suffer corruption, neither did Jesus know of God's wrath. Remember the gulf between the wicked and those who were righteous in Hades?



The place for any person who caries sin is Hades. Jesus carried the sins of the whole world! So Jesus went to Hades simply because he carried so much sin. Here is the verse

Isaiah 53:10 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


Also Paradise is not in the heart of the earth but Hades is and Jesus did go in there according to this verse -- Paradise now, as it was in Eden, is being in the presence of the Lord. And before Jesus made Paradise a place in the presence of the Lord, it was located at the first level of Hades. I think there is a parable about this somewhere.


Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


Hades is also the lower part of the earth and Jesus did go in there.
-- yes. But you yourself has said that there are different levels to Hades. So, did God's Holy One see corruption?

Here is the verse

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended , what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Please take into consideration your own words and that Christ did not go beyond that which was Paradise, seeing that He only told the thief, 'We shall be together in Paradise', and not, 'We shall go to curruption'. To say that He went beyond that gulf is to say that He saw corruption. No, Christ did not receive the judgment of the wicked (everlasting destruction), but received everlasting life.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#49
lol, I could post the whole Bible but just there is no space
likewise. But it is simple said that God's Holy One did not see corruption. Who are to believe?
 

tek

Banned
Sep 25, 2012
283
2
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#50
no. He went to preach to the righteous dead of the Law, those who were in Paradise..
Let’s go through 1 Pet 3:18-19

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh,


When did Jesus die in the flesh? Clearly on the Cross at the time of crucifixion. It’s not at the time of Adam and Eve or the time of Moses or the time of Noah. This whole passage is obviously about the time of his death on the cross.

but quickened by the Spirit:

When did Jesus became “quickened”? When did it happen? Did it happen at the time of Adam and Eve? Did it happen at the time of Moses? Did it happen at the time of Noah? No. It happened at the time of crucifixion. This should be obvious. This whole theme is about what happened the instant Jesus died on the cross when he cried out “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."

By which also he went and preached

Who went to preach? Was it Adam? Was it Moses? Was it Noah? No. Who was it? Who is that person? It's Jesus. It wasn’t Spirit preaching. It wasn’t Father preaching. It wasn’t Noah preaching. It was Jesus himself preaching.

Right after Jesus died on the cross where did he go? Did he go to heaven? Did he go to a party? Did he travel into the past to Noah’s time? No way!!!(that would be such an weird explanation). He went to the heart of the earth (as in Mathew 12:40)

So when Jesus got quickened where did He preach? Did he preach in heaven? Did he preach in a temple? Did he preach at Noah’s party? No. He preached in the heart of the earth.

unto the spirits in prison;

Who are spirits and what is Prison? At this point we are not sure so let’s read further

Which sometime were disobedient,

Notice the word “sometimes”. We’d like to know when these spirits were disobedient

when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,

So when were these spirits disobedient? They were disobedient during Noah’s time!

So who are these disobedient spirits? Are they demons? No way! Why would Jesus preach to demons? They must be human beings that lived during Noah’s time who were so wicked that God decided to destroy the whole world except Noah and his seven friends.

while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

So Jesus went to preach to the multitudes of spirits who were disobedient during the days of Noah while the ark was preparing.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#51
Did He see corruption?
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#53
If He saw no corruption, then how was it possible that He went over that gulf to have preached to the wicked (of the Law, and of those so wicked that God destroyed all the souls except 8)?

If He told the thief that they both would be in Paradise that day, then that 3rd person apparently did not go to Paradise but to the other side of the gulf. It was that theif who went to a place to meet the Messiah and because the Son saw no corruption, then we can agree that those who were in Abraham's Bosom was the righteous dead and not the wicked. If we understand that the wicked did and does go to curruption, then the wicked never received the promised Messiah, seeing that they never looked for that promise of deliverance. Now, back to that third one. Did he, out of faith, accept the Christ in life as the theif did? No. So, it is too late when one is dead to accept salvation. And we can conclude that Christ will never go back to Hades, seeing that Paradise is now where it once was: in the presence of the LORD.
 

tek

Banned
Sep 25, 2012
283
2
0
#54
If He saw no corruption, then how was it possible that He went over that gulf to have preached to the wicked ?

Paradise and Hades were right next to each other, separated by a great gulf or chasm

When Jesus died on the cross him and a criminal went to Paradise.

Just like a rich man seeing Abraham afar off and pleading him for mercy so wicked people in Hades saw Jesus afar off (in Paradise) and pleaded him for mercy.

Abraham was just a human. There is no way he could ever cross that gulf and so, if you remember, Abraham said to the rich man. “And
beside all this,between us and you there is a great gulf fixed : so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot ; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence….”

But Jesus is not a simple man like Abraham..... He is allmighty Son of God.....and so he crossed the gulf and preached the Gospel to them….
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#55
Paradise and Hades were right next to each other, separated by a great gulf or chasm

When Jesus died on the cross him and a criminal went to Paradise.

Just like a rich man seeing Abraham afar off and pleading him for mercy so wicked people in Hades saw Jesus afar off (in Paradise) and pleaded him for mercy.

Abraham was just a human. There is no way he could ever cross that gulf and so, if you remember, Abraham said to the rich man. “…And
beside all this,between us and you there is a great gulf fixed : so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot ; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence….”

But Jesus is not a simple man like Abraham..... He is allmighty Son of God.....and so he crossed the gulf and preached the Gospel to them….
You say that Scripture is correct in having said His Holy One saw no corruption, but here you said He did when He passed over the gulf. Again, who are we to believe? One who is God or one who is fitting Scripture to their doctrine. Do you not know that you are calling God a liar when you say that He crossed over to corruption, and yet God said He did not see the wicked

Psa 55:22 Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.
Psa 55:23 But thou, O God, shalt bring them down into the pit of destruction: bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days; but I will trust in thee.
 
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tek

Banned
Sep 25, 2012
283
2
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#56
Of course Jesus “see” wicked and what’s going on in Hades. How else would he tell the parable of a Rich man and Lazarus unless he saw that Rich man in Hades first?
By saying “Jesus did not see corruption” I meant Jesus himself has never been corrupted in anyway
Anyway go through 1 Pet 3:19 before telling “you are calling God a liar” or any other religious nonsense
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#58
where in the bible does it say that wicked will stay in Hades forever? Have you confused Hades and Lake of Fire again?
Hades = the abode of the death
second death = There will be no escape from the second death. Where is death = Hades. Paradise is no longer there. And thus, no need for Christ to return there to led captive those held captive.

There is no confusion when Scripture is accepted for what it is: and those on His left will go into an 'EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord'.

Listen Tek, knowledge is good, but the mind of Christ given to those led by His Spirit is even better.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#59
Of course Jesus “see” wicked and what’s going on in Hades. How else would he tell the parable of a Rich man and Lazarus unless he saw that Rich man in Hades first?
By saying “Jesus did not see corruption” I meant Jesus himself has never been corrupted in anyway
Anyway go through 1 Pet 3:19 before telling “you are calling God a liar” or any other religious nonsense
Either Scripture is true when it says that He did not SEE corruption in Hades or we are to say that Scripture holds falsehood. Did He go to the floor of Hades and preached the Good News to Satan and his hord? Did He go to the middle and preached to the wicked dead? Did He go to Paradise only as He said He was going to?
 

tek

Banned
Sep 25, 2012
283
2
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#60
Either Scripture is true when it says that He did not SEE corruption in Hades or we are to say that Scripture holds falsehood.
Are you saying there is corruption in Hades?
What corruption is in Hades?
Do you even understand what "corruption" means?
Corruption means that Jesus body shall not continue to be dead so long as to begin to putrefy or decompose or decay as it must return to life before the third day.