Origins of a Contrite Heart?

[Skinski7]

yes the cheating spouse must be remorsful but also know that her husband still loves and cherishes and forgives her and is willing to wash her clean, that would be the gospel message.

that people are sinfully dirty and need to be washed clean in the blood of the Lamb.

Willing to wash her clean on the condition that the adulterous behaviour is forsaken.

Hence God is long suffering and very patient.

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

 

[Bookends]

You are right on Cfultz!

That is EXACTLY the purpose of repentance.


One of the greatest fallacies taught today is that one can approach God and actually be reconciled whilst still in rebellion. The brokenness of repentance brings forth the fruit of the rebellion actually ceasing (the death of the old man), thus the repentant sinner is no longer double-minded and can actually receive the implanted word which can save their soul.

Hence a true believer does not fashion himself according to his FORMER LUSTS but rather yields themselves unto righteousness which gives birth to holiness.

1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Tell me right now Skinski, are you prefect like our Father in heaven? Have you already been glorified?

 

[Skinski7]

Did Saul approach God? or did God approach Saul, later to renamed Paul?

Did Jesus approach the disciples? or did the disciples approach Him?

Did God call Abram out of UR, or was Abram seeking God and a new way of life?

Did Nineveh approach God or did God approach Nineveh?

Both Nineveh and Paul repented.

God initiates the conviction but men have to respond of their own free volition. To assert otherwise is to teach that God saves men against their will yet Isaiah clearly teaches one must be "willing and obedient."

While it is God that works in us to will and to do, such an act is not a forcible construct, rather it is a draw.

Working together with God in no way diminishes the glory of God any more than a rescue helicopter is diminished because a sailor climbs up the ladder. Without the rescue helicopter the sailor is doomed.

Was the father of the prodigal son diminished in glory because the son came to his senses and forsook his rebellion? No. The fathers love and mercy was glorified all the more when forgiveness was granted and the son was restored.

If the father has to force the prodigal to leave the pig pen then how does that paint the father in regards to those he chooses not to force? In fact what if the father was to offer forgiveness while the son remained rebellious in the pig pen? Such action would reduce the righteous standard of God to a mere subjective and optional standard would it not?

If a judge were to pardon a murderer who asserted a willingness to commit more crimes it would be a travesty of justice as well as irresponsible.

If a sinner cannot freely adhere to a righteous standard due to being in a condition (born sinful) which necessitates unrighteousness then that sinner cannot possibly be held responsible for his conduct. Thus his condemnation is unjust. It would be akin to teaching a black man that he should be white and then condemning and punishing him for being black.

How does such theology glorify God in the slightest? It doesn't. It paints God as a partial and unjust tyrant who created men as playthings.

 

[zone]

Due to God being holy and just He cannot let those who reject His standards off the hook.

that's right.

GOOD LUCK

 

[zone]

SKINSKI:

so, i am compelled to ask again....since you were not reconciled to God in your rebellious state, why did you spend so many years hammering ppl with this same doctrine you preach today, as though you WERE saved...please answer this scott so i may understand your ideas more clearly.

thanks
zone.

 

[Skinski7]

Tell me right now Skinski, are you prefect like our Father in heaven? Have you already been glorified?

I see you are of the opinion that to teach that "repentance being connected to the cessation rebellion" is somehow equivalent, in your mind, to teaching that "one must be perfect in every way like God in heaven as well as being glorified."

I think such a connection is a pure fallacy which is being used to excuse a continuance of rebellion. Instead of addressing the particular points I made in my post you ask that question.

I'll run with it though and break it down. Let's see what the Scriptures teach.


I'll first assert that obeying God from the heart having forsaken rebellion does not mean one is perfect like God. In fact the Bible actually speaks of the perfecting of the saints which by necessity implies that a saint is not necessarily perfect (Eph 4:12-13). The perfection in Eph 4:12-13 speaks of the saints coming into the unity of the faith and the fulness of Christ.

There is also this passage in the Bible...

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Did the Prodigal Son separate himself and come out from among them before he was received by his father? In doing so I wonder if someone would ask the prodigal if he was perfect like his father and had been glorified?


When Jesus taught "be ye perfect" it was in the context of the Sermon of the Mount in which Jesus was teaching about heart purity.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

G5046
Perfect - teleios
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

Was Jesus commanding something that was impossible? No, he was talking about being morally perfect in the context of loving God with all your heart soul and mind and loving your neighbour as yourself. Remember he taught that our righteousness must exceed that of the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees who had a form of outward righteousness but were defiled within.

Look at this passage of scripture...

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

You asked have I already been glorified. The obvious answer is no and neither had Paul when he wrote that passage. He actually used a word which we translate as perfect in the context of the resurrection of the dead.

G5048 Perfect - teleioō
tel-i-o'-o
From G5046; to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.

Yet if we look at verse 15 he uses another word which is translated as perfect and he uses it in the context of those who are already perfect.

G5046 Perfect - teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

You'll notice it is the exact same word as Jesus used in Matt 5:48.

Here is another passage with the word Perfect (G5046)...

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.


The question I ask you Bookends is...

Why do you have a issue with the cessation of rebellion being associated with repentance in the context of being a mandatory condition for reconciliation to God to take place?

If you deny that the cessation of rebellion is essential for reconciliation to take place and also deny that moral perfection is possible then you have a gospel where a sinner is not truly redeemed from ALL iniquity and made PURE zealous of good works.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Is Titus 2:14 true or is salvation a mere judicial cloak for the ongoing rebellion and defilement of a sinner?

Is salvation purely forensic and abstract in nature or is it more than that.

You have the scriptures to lead you to the truth.

 

[Skinski7]

SKINSKI:



thanks
zone.

I think you have confused timing somewhere. I have only preached repentance and faith proven by deeds for approximately 18 months.

Before that I was deceived by reformed theology and it took me many months of study and self reflection to clear my mind of all the fallacies I held due to listening to false teachers.

I underwent quite a long period of conviction due to being double-minded for so long. I was in darkness and God had was working on me for quite some time before I could even comprehend the truth.

 

[cfultz3]

You are right on Cfultz!

That is EXACTLY the purpose of repentance.


One of the greatest fallacies taught today is that one can approach God and actually be reconciled whilst still in rebellion. The brokenness of repentance brings forth the fruit of the rebellion actually ceasing (the death of the old man), thus the repentant sinner is no longer double-minded and can actually receive the implanted word which can save their soul.

Hence a true believer does not fashion himself according to his FORMER LUSTS but rather yields themselves unto righteousness which gives birth to holiness.

1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

My two cents worth:

Say I am a murderer and the Spirit is working on me to show me the error of my ways. After a time, I can no longer bear the conviction of the Spirit and agree that I am rebellious, my stubborn heart has been broken of its lust for murdering.

Now, what was the purpose of the Spirit convicting me? It is certain so that I could have come to the reality that the way I am living is leading to death and not life and that there is a need for me to come to the cross and instead be led to Life.

Now, it is possible for me to walk upon two paths leading in opposite directions? That is, can I tell the Lord that I desire to follow Him, and because I do, I will murder less and less? Of coarse not. A double minded person is like a wave tossed here and there, never on sure grounds of rest. I must relent my life and be led away, otherwise my light is grey and my soul does not have the true Light in him.

So,I then must repent or continue to be a double minded person. One cannot find forgivenss if one does not truly repent. And if one does not have forgiveness, then how can one escape that which awaits all the children of the rebellion: death?

So, I guess it could be asked: can I be a sinner and a saint at the same time, or better yet, a sinning saint? Can I live for the flesh and the spirit at the same time? Who says that we cannot die to the flesh when it is told to us that we are to die so that we can be risen with the Lord?

The offense of a saint is not of the flesh written upon tablets of stone, rebellion comes from the saint who does not hearken to the Spirit when He speaks of which direction to follow. Yes, our fellowship with God is as real as it was with Adam and Eve and He does speak to us in that same fellowship we once lost. It is literal when it is said: Give no heed to the flesh, but heed every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God. Obey God and live.

Listen people, it is simple: we do die to the flesh every time we listen to the Spirit. Every time we suffer in the flesh when we are told by God to follow Him instead of that lust burning inside, we overcome sin. The road is not easy and God knows those who are truly contrite and will not allow them to be overburdened with temptation without an escape. But you must face reality, you cannot live a double life (have two masters). We must be obedient to one Master if we are to reach the Promised Land.

So, can I really be a murderer and a saint? To say that I can be a sinner and a saint is the same as saying that I can be a holy offender. God forbid that it is said I can be a saved sinner when it is said that God judges the wicked.

 

[zone]

I see you are of the opinion that to teach that "repentance being connected to the cessation rebellion" is somehow equivalent, in your mind, to teaching that "one must be perfect in every way like God in heaven as well as being glorified."

I think such a connection is a pure fallacy which is being used to excuse a continuance of rebellion. Instead of addressing the particular points I made in my post you ask that question.

are you planning to answer my questions, Scott?
what about our hypothetical man who taught the exact same message you teach today...he taught it and condemned everyone around him....for, let's say 17 years.

but it turns out the man had a serious sexual deviancy issue....he claims he couldn't stop.
he says the church is to blame for encouraging him to keep on sinning.

was that man ever saved?

was the church to blame for his indulging his lust? < SINNING?

was he knowingly committing crimes against the Most High God while claiming to walk in the light?

please answer my questions. i want to understand the hypothetical man - i want to believe him, i want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but for obvious reasons, everything he says is now suspect.

that hypothetical man's current credibility hinges on this. apparently he is still not capable of being honest.

could help me out on this? because it seems we have a lot of men sinning willfully after having come to the knowledge of the truth....they had a lot of truth. yet they knowingly, of their own free will, partook in open rebellion.

another hypothetical person found his writings from many years ago, and they sound just like his writings today as he NOW claims to have been saved AFTER stopping his grievous sexual deviancy.

this man appears to be very confused. that's not my main concern however - my main concern is the man's heresy in denying the essentials of the Christian faith, and going about attacking the church; the Lord's pastors; and His sheep. he is promoting false doctrine.

what should i say to the man, Scott?
zone

~

2 Samuel 12
1And the LORD sent Nathan to David. He came to him and said to him, “There were two men in a certain city, the one rich and the other poor. 2The rich man had very many flocks and herds, 3but the poor man had nothing but one little ewe lamb, which he had bought. And he brought it up, and it grew up with him and with his children. It used to eat of his morsel and drink from his cup and lie in his arms,a and it was like a daughter to him. 4Now there came a traveler to the rich man, and he was unwilling to take one of his own flock or herd to prepare for the guest who had come to him, but he took the poor man’s lamb and prepared it for the man who had come to him.” 5Then David’s anger was greatly kindled against the man, and he said to Nathan, “As the LORD lives, the man who has done this deserves to die, 6and he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.”

7Nathan said to David, “You are the man!

 

[cfultz3]

Bookends = black
Me = purple

]I don't disagree with what you say. But could we say that it is God who opens the eyes of the repentant? And only then at this point an individual is enabled to exercise his/her will to repent? What else could be the difference between two types of people? I was not less sinful then the other guy who didn't and/or never will repent. After all God did make everyone on of us, He is the potter and we are the clay, He knows us in our mother's womb. There is just an aspect of all this that is above human understanding.
-- Bookends,
Yes, we could say that it is God who opens the eyes of the repentant one, with the understanding that it is the Spirit who brings a rebellious one to an understanding that he is walking contrary to God's path. And still it could be said that it is then that a sinner exercises his will to repent.

you bring up a good question: what else could be the difference between [those] two types of people? If these two types of people, those who repent and those who do not, are given the same 'recipe' for salvation, namely, the conviction of the Spirit, and one does not concur with the Spirit to be converted, then what remains which caused that one not to repent although salvation is offered to all? A very scriptual solution is that we choose whom we shall follow: Christ or the flesh, even Satan himself. It would seem to me that this one has decided that what God has to offer does not match up with what he is presently lively, whatever that might be. Perhaps this one has said that he finds more pleasure in his flesh and that it is more agreeable to live in the now and let tomarrow worry about tomarrow.
So, I guess it broils down to the desires of a person's heart (soul). Choose you this day.....



I don't feel comfortable saying that it was God and myself in which brought me to salvation, or that it's because I repented. Regardless of how it happens, I"ll give the Lord all the credit. I'm probably confusing to you because now I'm sounded more like a predestinationist. Do you ever catch yourself praying for friends, family members, co-workers or anybody really, asking God to save them, asking God to change their heart? But yet sometimes we believe that God doesn't go that far to save us. Perhaps God plays a greater role in saving individuals then we think.

-- Salvation by faith is a gift from God, we cannot earn what is given freely. But, who is this salvation given to? Is it not to those who have placed their faith in Christ? Yes. In this line of reasoning it could also be said that having placed one's faith in Christ is also a work, seeing that we have placed that faith of our own accord. But, we know this logic is folly is comparison to all the Scriptures which state that we are to have placed our faith in Christ for salvation. So, if the decision to believe is not a work, then how can the decision to repent be a work? Both are mental and spiritual concurrances with God: Yes God, faith is your way to salvation. Yes God, I must turn away from darkness and into the Light. If one cannot obtain salvation apart from faith, then neither can one obtain forgiveness without repentance.

All credit for one's salvation is given to God, seeing that by faith, those righteous of the Law were justified by faith in their coming Messiah and we of Christ's faith are justified by that same resurrected Messiah. So yes, salvation from damnation is only from God. But just as they made the decision to follow God and awaited their Messiah, we too must make a decision to follow Him or else, we are not walking upon the same path as our Lord walked upon.

I believe that God does go through great lengths to save a soul, but we must be willing to be rescued, the wicked dead is a good example of one needing to be willing to accept Christ as their Savior. In fact, saying that one needs to accept Christ as their Savior is the same as saying that it is we who need to repent before there is forgiveness and a Savior for our souls.


It's not my hearts desire to figure out how we get there, or how we got here (to the point of repentance and salvation), but what we do once we get there.

--To me it matters for an understanding of: are we incabable of asking God for forgiveness once our heart has been broken by the conviction of the Spirit or is that confession forced from us, seeing that it is often said that no willingness to do the right thing dwells in us apart from God? Do we come to God willfully? And if we do come willfully, then that implies that worship is freely given from the heart and that faith in God is something to desire and not a thing of regret. If we are able to make right decisions in reality, then how is it that we are not able to make the right decision to follow God on our own accord when we have been brought to that point by the Spirit?

 

[cfultz3]

Did Saul approach God? or did God approach Saul, later to renamed Paul?

Did Jesus approach the disciples? or did the disciples approach Him?

Did God call Abram out of UR, or was Abram seeking God and a new way of life?

Does the King upon the throne of mercy approach the one requesting forgiveness, or must a sinner approach the King upon His throne?


As concerning your examples of God approaching men, I cannot deny that God stands behind every sinner beckoning to him. And neither can I deny that one must be willing to admit his rebellion and as you have implied, that one must turn around (approach) God looking for forgiveness.

 

[Skinski7]

are you planning to answer my questions, Scott?
what about our hypothetical man who taught the exact same message you teach today...he taught it and condemned everyone around him....for, let's say 17 years.

but it turns out the man had a serious sexual deviancy issue....he claims he couldn't stop.
he says the church is to blame for encouraging him to keep on sinning.

was that man ever saved? No. Being set free from the bondage of sin is one aspect of salvation (Rom 6:7, Rom 6:15). You cannot be free and a slave at the same time, they are opposites.

was the church to blame for his indulging his lust? < SINNING? We are responsible for our own sin (Eze 18:20). Yet God does hold people accountable for leading others into sin (Luk 17:1-2) and those who teach are held to a higher standard (Jam 3:1).

was he knowingly committing crimes against the Most High God while claiming to walk in the light? One cannot walk in the light whilst walking in accordance with the lusts of the flesh (Gal 5:16). If one claims to be walking in the light whilst walking in the lusts of the flesh then they are liars (1Joh 2:3-6) for what one does is a reflection of who one belongs to (Joh 8:39, Joh 8:44, Rom 6:16, 1Jn 3:9-10).

please answer my questions. i want to understand the hypothetical man - i want to believe him, i want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but for obvious reasons, everything he says is now suspect.

that hypothetical man's current credibility hinges on this. apparently he is still not capable of being honest.

could help me out on this? because it seems we have a lot of men sinning willfully after having come to the knowledge of the truth....they had a lot of truth. yet they knowingly, of their own free will, partook in open rebellion. I would object that many of those sinning willfully ever truly came to a knowledge of the truth. Heb 10:26 is in the context of those who have bee sanctified by the blood (Heb 10:29) and that can only occur if one walks in the light (1Jon 1:7). Many might be brought to conviction but unless they truly repent and forsake their rebellion then they have never touched the blood and been reconciled to God. Heb 10:26 only applies to those who have TRULY been reconciled and not those who merely THINK they have.

Initial repentance is meant to be a one time deal and that is why the scriptures teach that it is not to be regretted (2Cor 7:10). The old man is meant to die one time, it is not meant to be continually revived and put to death.

If you read the Ante-Nicene Father's you will see that the common view was that a second repentance was extremely unlikely and even impossible for someone who had truly come out of their sins through faith in Jesus Christ. Bear in mind that they preached a clear message that the unrighteous conduct ceased and that one did not walk according to the lusts of the flesh, sin was not tolerated like it is now. They did not preach the death of Christ on the cross as a Substitutionary Atonement. They taught that Jesus ransomed sinners from the bondage of sin by His blood. A sinner did not approach God to be reconciled whilst still in rebellion.

another hypothetical person found his writings from many years ago, and they sound just like his writings today as he NOW claims to have been saved AFTER stopping his grievous sexual deviancy.

this man appears to be very confused. that's not my main concern however - my main concern is the man's heresy in denying the essentials of the Christian faith, and going about attacking the church; the Lord's pastors; and His sheep. he is promoting false doctrine. What you hold as "essentials" WERE NOT "essentials" in the early church. Penal Substitution is a 400 year old doctrine and Original Sin was introduced into Christian orthodoxy by Augustine of Hippo in the 4th century. You are free to hold those doctrines as "essentials" and be "concerned with anyone who rejects them" but that is your choice. History and the Bible both bear witness against you.

what should i say to the man, Scott?
zone

I started reading the Bible in the mid to late 90's yet I would gravitate towards particular teachers. I adopted the doctrine of Total Depravity through the works of Stewart Best but over time began to have issues with what he taught, I then gravitated towards teachers like Paul Washer and David Eels who both taught Reformed Theology without labeling it as such.

I was living a double-minded life but was under strong conviction. Yet my focus was more on political activism which kept my mind off my spiritual state. It was through both Paul Washer and David Eells that I came to adopt a belief in the Reformed view of election and thus I concluded in my mind that "my choices" were irrelevant and thus I was able to justify my double-mindedness as simply my natural state as I waited on God to do something.

It wasn't until a couple of years ago that I came across a street preaching video where the preacher claimed that Original Sin was in fact a false teaching which was introduced by Augustine. The name of this street preacher was Kerrigan Skelly. What he claimed appeared to make logical sense and it was a very similar feeling to when I first read some information in the 90s that questioned evolutionary theory.


Like I did with evolutionary theory I investigated the veracity of the information and found a sermon by a guy called Chris Hill which in turn led me to Mike DeSario's audios. I began to listen to them and the message was very clear indeed. I then began to look into early church history and read some of the early church fathers and I quickly realised that the doctrine they preached was VERY DIFFERENT to what is being commonly preached today.


I was extremely disturbed by all this but also excited in that I was learning a lot. I also became extremely convicted about my worldliness and I truly began to realise how willfully rebellious and evil I actually was, and yet I knew that I had to make a CHOICE. Who was I going to serve, was I going to continue to walk my own way or was I going to surrender all and submit and trust in Christ.


I saw the vanity of my life in how I would go from pleasure to pleasure living from moment to moment knowing that such a life was temporary. Sin brings pleasure for a time but that time does come to an end. I also became aware of the deception that was in the world in regards to a Gospel that taught that a sinner was cloaked whilst still in rebellion.


All this broke me as I realised that I was fully accountable for my sinful choices and that I truly did not love God or my neighbour. I became sick of this empty state I was in and I threw myself at the mercy of God and forsook my foolish ways.


The light turned on. Suddenly an awareness of the Spirit of God came over me and everything changed. I became aware of what abiding in Jesus Christ actually meant, it is a conscious state of walking in agreement with God. A heart yielded to truth. Being submitted to the working of God through me as opposed to pushing God away through the act of walking my own way.


I then began to really learn due to the powerful compulsion I had to read the Scripture and reflect on what it taught. The Bible suddenly opened up and I could see a vast web on interconnections. As I would read these connections would appear and a picture began to emerge. The Gospel started to make sense.


I am still in the process of learning and I have much growing to do but I am not the same person I was. That person is dead.
~

2 Samuel 12
1And the LORD sent Nathan to David. He came to him and said to him, &#8220;There were two men in a certain city, the one rich and the other poor. 2The rich man had very many flocks and herds, 3but the poor man had nothing but one little ewe lamb, which he had bought. And he brought it up, and it grew up with him and with his children. It used to eat of his morsel and drink from his cup and lie in his arms,a and it was like a daughter to him. 4Now there came a traveler to the rich man, and he was unwilling to take one of his own flock or herd to prepare for the guest who had come to him, but he took the poor man&#8217;s lamb and prepared it for the man who had come to him.&#8221; 5Then David&#8217;s anger was greatly kindled against the man, and he said to Nathan, &#8220;As the LORD lives, the man who has done this deserves to die, 6and he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.&#8221;

7Nathan said to David, &#8220;You are the man!

David had to repent didn't he?

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I did answer your post so I am not sure why you are asking me if I am going to answer your questions. Perhaps you missed my response or you did not find it acceptable. Either way that's on you.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/55694-absurdity-born-sinner-3.html#post877177

I tried my best to answer the questions above too.

 

[pickles]

I should have added this last night, and please forgive me as I explain and understand in what is lived.
When I was so broken, I saw before me two choices, I could embrace hate, so as to think I had power over what was happening to me, taking the ones that had hurt me and expose them for the cruel things they did.
I could have destroyed them, and had vindication.
Or I could do as was done, say yes to God and be obedient, even if it meant more pain, letting the ones that hurt me believe they had victory over me, that they had succeeded.
Having those who did not know the truth, and saw me as the others had portrayed me, knowing the truth may remain unknown, unless God decided to expose them.
Well I could go on, but the truth is?
All had nothing to do with what I went through, or what the others had done.

All was about accepting God's will to His glory.
All is about knowing that the things of the world which we hold onto, are but dust.
One when humbled and submiting before God, is seeing one's knowladge is useless, seeing that one has no power, wisdom is useless, its realising that everything one thinks thay have or do is really dust and can be blown away by a breath from God.
Then see that the power and life of these things, is given by God.
That all His desire for us, is His love, the perfect, eternal life.

It is also seeing that if one refuses to forgive and hold others in bitterness, the theif will try to convince you that you have power, that you can do all you want, can have it all, but one will also be consumed by evil, a partaker of death.

I read a scripture once that said before you are fire and water, life and death, man chooses.

I knew at that time only one thing, I wanted water.
I also realised that there is only one way, truth ,life and that is Jesus.
And that I did nothing on my own.
I learned that in Jesus, everything good, everything alive , all love, comes from God Our Father and brought to us through the Holy Spirit.

I also came to see that the moment I think I have gained anything on my own, that being humbled again by God may be needed.
For when one is willing to accept what God asks, even if it is everything one would not want, but is willing to accept and trust to God.
This is when it is in our weakness that God's power is made perfect.

How can any of us think we do anything on our own, when everything is the work and creation of God.
And the most humbleing and perfect part of this truth, is that all He gives to us is because of His great love for us.
Jesus said," I am the way, the truth and the life."
Scripture also speaks to His saying, "I am stand at the door waiting, will you let me in?"
For there are three things that last, faith, hope and love.

All is set before us, which is the food one will choose?.

It really is all about life giving water, the bread of life, Jesus!

in Jesus, God bless
pickles








Being obedient and praising God, knowing that I had no recourse but to forgive and love the ones that hurt me, was a compleat submission to Jesus.

 

[pickles]

I thought I should add, all one learns or is given , should be able to be supported by scripture.

God bless
pickles

 

[zone]

I did answer your post so I am not sure why you are asking me if I am going to answer your questions. Perhaps you missed my response or you did not find it acceptable. Either way that's on you.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/55694-absurdity-born-sinner-3.html#post877177

I tried my best to answer the questions above too.

hi Scott....thanks.
no, this is on you. all of it. they are your assertions, it is your life, and your theology. you've posted extensively and exhaustively on your objections to catholic and protestant theology, soteriology in particular. and on your own perspectives and studies as well. so that's the ground i'll meet you on.

and it'll be personal. i think we can both agree beyond a certain number of "abstractions", this thing either comes down to whether or not we have been changed.

Scott, i did keep searching to see if you had answered my questions, but i did not see the post in the "absurdity" thread. i'm going to consider both of your posts carefully, then i will reply.

i don't know which thread is most appropriate to continue in....i'll let you know.
zone.

 

[psychomom]

Although Scott mentioned the verse, the answer to the question posed in the OP seems, to me, quite obvious!

Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? (Rom. 2:4)

Only one Way.
Only one way to get there, and it begins and ends with God,
all for His glory. &#9829;

-ellie

 

[Bookends]

The question I ask you Bookends is...

Why do you have a issue with the cessation of rebellion being associated with repentance in the context of being a mandatory condition for reconciliation to God to take place?

If you deny that the cessation of rebellion is essential for reconciliation to take place and also deny that moral perfection is possible then you have a gospel where a sinner is not truly redeemed from ALL iniquity and made PURE zealous of good works.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Is Titus 2:14 true or is salvation a mere judicial cloak for the ongoing rebellion and defilement of a sinner?

Is salvation purely forensic and abstract in nature or is it more than that.

You have the scriptures to lead you to the truth.

Did the criminal on the cross become perfect like Christ upon his conversion? Peter denied Christ 3 times after Peter accurately answered Jesus who Jesus was. My point is, who in the bible is clearly in display of being perfect? I praise God that he used imperfect and unlearned men, men and woman whom society would even look down upon, to carry out His will and message. There is only one man who was perfect, Jesus Christ, and in Him only I am perfect in the sight of God, because when God looks upon me he sees the blood atonement of His son, the work of God.

Yes, I want to be perfect, every Christian should be conforming to the likeness of Christ. But often I'm not. Am I go around beating myself up thinking I can't get to God unless I come sinless. What you are saying is the Power and sacrifice of our Lord was not good enough, powerful enough, to save once for all, who authentically repent (having an intent never to go back to sinful ways), believe and receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior.

You want bring the prodigal son into this, well what about his brother! Analyze his brother and tell me what you find!

The Error of Christian Perfectionism


Christian Perfectionism- Introduction
Some people actually claim that they have reached a state in the Christian life where they just don’t sin anymore. Wait a minute, doesn’t the Bible say that if we actually think something like this we are deceiving ourselves and are, in fact, calling God a liar?
Christian Perfectionism- Not Biblical
Christian perfectionism is not biblical doctrine. 1 John 1:8 clearly states: “If we claim to be without sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.” While willful sin ought not to characterize our life, sin will remain a part of human experience until we lay aside our physical body at death (Rom. 7). In fact, the wisest man who ever lived (Solomon) said: “Who can say, I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin?”
Christian Perfectionism- A Narrow Definition of Sin
Many who believe that they have reached sinless perfection actually have a very narrow and limited view of sin. Some actually argue that only deliberate disobedience to God’s will is actually sin. However, this is not the way the Bible describes sin at all. Sin can be committed in thought, word, and deed, and, of course, there are sins of commission as well as omission. To be truly sinless means that you love God with all of your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and, of course, that you love your neighbor as well. To be perfect in a biblical sense means that you mirror the very image of Jesus Christ Himself. This will take place in heaven, but certainly not here on earth.
Christian Perfectionism- Justified, but not Yet Perfect
While the Christian is never intrinsically perfect in this life (or completely sanctified), we have been justified because of the work of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 5:21). So positionally we’re declared righteous (in Christ) though practically we still wrestle with sin. Our confidence, however, is that we are considered perfect in the sight of God because we are united with the Lord Jesus Christ through faith.
Christian Perfectionism- Closeness to God Brings Awareness of Sin
Look at the people in the Bible. When they were really close to God, they didn’t claim to be sinless. Instead, they became increasingly aware of their sin (Isa. 6:5; Dan. 9:4-19; Eph. 3:8). Paul, of course, cried out: “O wretched man that I am.” According to R. C. Sproul, the doctrine of sinless perfection is, in fact, perfect error!
We seek to live holy lives, not to put God in our debt, but merely to demonstrate gratitude for His unmerited love. [above article is from the Christian Research Institute.]

 

[Bookends]

--To me it matters for an understanding of: are we incabable of asking God for forgiveness once our heart has been broken by the conviction of the Spirit or is that confession forced from us, seeing that it is often said that no willingness to do the right thing dwells in us apart from God? Do we come to God willfully? And if we do come willfully, then that implies that worship is freely given from the heart and that faith in God is something to desire and not a thing of regret. If we are able to make right decisions in reality, then how is it that we are not able to make the right decision to follow God on our own accord when we have been brought to that point by the Spirit?[/COLOR]

Once we are saved don't we belong to God? Giving up our free will to live as we did in the past? That now it is the Spirit that compels us to pray, worship, fellowship, study and drives our actions to do good works?

BTW, I am not always able to make right decisions in reality...Are you?

 

[Ariel82]

Does the King upon the throne of mercy approach the one requesting forgiveness, or must a sinner approach the King upon His throne?
.

Jesus came off His throne to approach men and tell them of God's love and forgiveness.

 

[zone]

Did the criminal on the cross become perfect like Christ upon his conversion? Peter denied Christ 3 times after Peter accurately answered Jesus who Jesus was. My point is, who in the bible is clearly in display of being perfect? I praise God that he used imperfect and unlearned men, men and woman whom society would even look down upon, to carry out His will and message. There is only one man who was perfect, Jesus Christ, and in Him only I am perfect in the sight of God, because when God looks upon me he sees the blood atonement of His son, the work of God.

Yes, I want to be perfect, every Christian should be conforming to the likeness of Christ. But often I'm not. Am I go around beating myself up thinking I can't get to God unless I come sinless. What you are saying is the Power and sacrifice of our Lord was not good enough, powerful enough, to save once for all, who authentically repent (having an intent never to go back to sinful ways), believe and receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior.

You want bring the prodigal son into this, well what about his brother! Analyze his brother and tell me what you find!

The Error of Christian Perfectionism


Christian Perfectionism- Introduction
Some people actually claim that they have reached a state in the Christian life where they just don’t sin anymore. Wait a minute, doesn’t the Bible say that if we actually think something like this we are deceiving ourselves and are, in fact, calling God a liar?
Christian Perfectionism- Not Biblical
Christian perfectionism is not biblical doctrine. 1 John 1:8 clearly states: “If we claim to be without sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.” While willful sin ought not to characterize our life, sin will remain a part of human experience until we lay aside our physical body at death (Rom. 7). In fact, the wisest man who ever lived (Solomon) said: “Who can say, I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin?”
Christian Perfectionism- A Narrow Definition of Sin
Many who believe that they have reached sinless perfection actually have a very narrow and limited view of sin. Some actually argue that only deliberate disobedience to God’s will is actually sin. However, this is not the way the Bible describes sin at all. Sin can be committed in thought, word, and deed, and, of course, there are sins of commission as well as omission. To be truly sinless means that you love God with all of your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and, of course, that you love your neighbor as well. To be perfect in a biblical sense means that you mirror the very image of Jesus Christ Himself. This will take place in heaven, but certainly not here on earth.
Christian Perfectionism- Justified, but not Yet Perfect
While the Christian is never intrinsically perfect in this life (or completely sanctified), we have been justified because of the work of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 5:21). So positionally we’re declared righteous (in Christ) though practically we still wrestle with sin. Our confidence, however, is that we are considered perfect in the sight of God because we are united with the Lord Jesus Christ through faith.
Christian Perfectionism- Closeness to God Brings Awareness of Sin
Look at the people in the Bible. When they were really close to God, they didn’t claim to be sinless. Instead, they became increasingly aware of their sin (Isa. 6:5; Dan. 9:4-19; Eph. 3:8). Paul, of course, cried out: “O wretched man that I am.” According to R. C. Sproul, the doctrine of sinless perfection is, in fact, perfect error!
We seek to live holy lives, not to put God in our debt, but merely to demonstrate gratitude for His unmerited love. [above article is from the Christian Research Institute.]

some are more perfect than others....

'Luther' [Joseph Fiennes] outraged by the desperate pilgrims on the Scala Sancta (Holy Stairs) in Rome.