Christian Truth or Antichrist Deception?

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unclefester

Guest
well i am -not- a dispensationalist and i have never been... and i -don't- believe that God's plan is all about a bit of land in the middle east and i never have...

the reason i am not in agreement with you on the rest is because 'the modern state of israel is lex luthor' does not follow from 'jews do not have a God given right to the land'

unfortunately it seems that most 'former dispensationalists' are still stuck in the futurist paradigm...they have just shuffled futurism's eschatological players around a bit...
this is all very nice...but it doesn't prove the point that some are trying to make...

so the true inheritance of abraham and his spiritual descendants is in heaven...the physical land of israel is not a God given inheritance...i agree with that...

which means that the physical land of israel is just another part of the secular world...no different from the other 57.5 million square miles of land in the world...

meaning it is legitimately available to any secular power that can control it...including rome and byzantium and the caliphs and the crusaders and the ottoman empire and the british empire...and even the state founded by the formerly 'chosen' people known as jews...
I think we agree more on this than you realize Rachel. My opinion of today's inhabitants of modern day Israel are no less than are my opinions of the inhabitants of any other nation. All believers, both jew and gentile are one in Christ. It is the modern day pharisees in today's "Israel" that I take issue with. Those who hate Christ (and they do). These are no more "honourable" than any muslim terrorist ... nor are they chosen of God. But many christian westerners today remain afraid to even consider such a thought in lieu of offending God. Those who bless "Israel" ..blah..blah..blah. They haven't a clue who "Israel" is. THIS is the great deception. If someone claims to love today's "Israel", they would recognize that it is the gospel of Jesus Christ that they need to hear more than money for armaments to be used to establish their earthly nation. Abraham looked for an heavenly city whose founder and builder is God. Today's jew and all of us, as in the days of Abraham should be looking for no less. "If you knew Moses, you would know Me ... for Moses spoke of Me".
 
A

Abiding

Guest
most of us who don't buy into the 9/11 conspiracy theories have looked at the arguments and found them to be totally unconvincing...

now don't bother to start copying and pasting stuff...i have seen it all before... from misunderstandings about how steel behaves under heat...to people finding ground up aluminum and rust in the footprint of a collapsed skyscraper and calling it 'thermite'...to people arguing that building seven being blasted by tons of burning shrapnel should not have caused it to collapse...to misunderstanding what 'pulling' means in demolition terminology...to a silly old woman with a grudge turning in some israelis because through her binoculars she thought they might have been laughing...to unsubstantiated claims from washed up former low level intelligence translators turned professional complainants...to misconceptions about the architecture of the twin towers...

over a decade and still the 9/11 conspiracy theorists have produced no convincing evidence...nothing but misinformed gobbledygook...

I just wanted to thank you for bringing back the word "gobbledygook" I hate when the old words get lost. And
that one was a favorite of mine.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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If by "Jew" you mean Judaism, than that is not really true when a Jew receives Jesus the Christ.

He is no longer under the Sinaitic (Old) Covenant with its curses for imperfect obedience, which as been abolished (Heb 8:13),
but is under a New Covenant made in the blood of Jesus the Christ, its mediator.

He is no longer under the Mosaic ceremonial laws of Leviticus regarding clean and unclean food, persons, houses (Lev 11-15).

There is no Day of Atonement (Lev 16) for him, because full and complete atonement has now been permanently made for his sin.

He is no longer under the Mosaic Law, but is under the Law of Christ (1Co 9:20-21; Gal 6:2)), which is the royal law of love (Jas 2:8; (Gal 5:6) and which fulfills (performs) the Law (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10), because

if I love God, I will not take his name in vain, nor worship idols;
if I love my parents, I will honor them;
if I love my neighbors, I will not steal from them, murder them, commit adultery with their spouses,
norlust after their possessions.

He is no longer under the Mosaic ceremonial laws of Leviticus regarding clean and unclean food, persons, houses (Lev 11-15).

There is no Day of Atonment (Lev 16) for him, because atonement has now been permanently made for his sin.

The Feasts of the Law are all now fulfilled in Christ, their reality, of which they were only shadows (Heb 10:1; Col 2:17).
I know Heb 7 covers all that, I am speaking of the promises made to Abraham and his seed to be received by faith.
 

crossnote

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Nov 24, 2012
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but there is no Mosaic Covenant.
so they are going through more than empty motions.
that religion has been gone for 2000 years > it became Christianity or it was nothing.

the Old Covenant curses were already poured out.

something else exists today though - the religion the Pharisees were developing already in Jesus' Day.
it is opposed to not only Jesus, but Moses & the Prophets as well.
it's a dark shadow of even them.
the prophets themselves are given mere lip service, barely mentioned and at times dishonored in it.
that's all i have to say about that.
The Mosaic covenant was just temporary but the promises to Abraham were permanent
 

crossnote

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Nov 24, 2012
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Jacobs trouble=70 yr captivity in babylon
olive tree grafting back=church age
your non-dispie friend
you mean to tell me the horrendous events in Rev. actually took place in the Babylonian captivity?
 
N

nathan3

Guest
wheres the scripture.?
 

crossnote

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Nov 24, 2012
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I think we agree more on this than you realize Rachel. My opinion of today's inhabitants of modern day Israel are no less than are my opinions of the inhabitants of any other nation. All believers, both jew and gentile are one in Christ. It is the modern day pharisees in today's "Israel" that I take issue with. Those who hate Christ (and they do). These are no more "honourable" than any muslim terrorist ... nor are they chosen of God. But many christian westerners today remain afraid to even consider such a thought in lieu of offending God. Those who bless "Israel" ..blah..blah..blah. They haven't a clue who "Israel" is. THIS is the great deception. If someone claims to love today's "Israel", they would recognize that it is the gospel of Jesus Christ that they need to hear more than money for armaments to be used to establish their earthly nation. Abraham looked for an heavenly city whose founder and builder is God. Today's jew and all of us, as in the days of Abraham should be looking for no less. "If you knew Moses, you would know Me ... for Moses spoke of Me".
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
you mean to tell me the horrendous events in Rev. actually took place in the Babylonian captivity?

Nope not saying that at all, im just saying Jacobs trouble is over. Its a term in prophecy
for the babylonian captivity.

Dispies put a spin on fulfilled prophecies.
Why they picked that term is funny to me.

Jacobs trouble=70 yrs yet dispies say trib is 7
how they cram that togather i spose is a mystery.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Explain these words, use scripture while you explain please: "fulness of the Gentiles be come in"

Also if your studied in that verse please explain: "that blindness in part is happened to Israel"
thankyou



fullness=?
blindness=?
 
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Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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very good reading/entertainment... What about the word Poppycock Abiding? I used that word before and it didn't get a response out of you like "gobblygook"...Hmmm, I'm probably not as cute as Rachelbiblestudent, that must it.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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Explain these words, use scripture while you explain please: "fulness of the Gentiles be come in"

Also if your studied in that verse please explain: "that blindness in part is happened to Israel"
thankyou



fullness=?
blindness=?
fulness=set number
blindness=blindness in part

here is one for you
until=?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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Nope not saying that at all, im just saying Jacobs trouble is over. Its a term in prophecy
for the babylonian captivity.

Dispies put a spin on fulfilled prophecies.
Why they picked that term is funny to me.

Jacobs trouble=70 yrs yet dispies say trib is 7
how they cram that togather i spose is a mystery.
This is what I was referring to:

"So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
(Mat 24:15-22)

Please don't tell me it was 70 AD.
 
U

unclefester

Guest
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Good morning Crossnote :) Consider the following.


Romans 11;25-27

[SUP]25 [/SUP]I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel (the Nation/people) has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles (other Nations/people) has come in, .... [SUP]26 [/SUP]and in this way, all (Spiritual) Israel will be saved.

Does this mean that "all Israel (the Nation)" will be saved ? How can it when we already know that only a remnant will be ? AND IN THIS WAY ..... all Israel will be saved. What way ?? When the fulness of the gentiles is complete ... (and) including the remnant of God's elect amongst the jews, ... ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED. If ever there was a scripture that makes clear who (Spiritual) Israel is, it is this very one. As I have said previously somewhere else on these threads, the bible is a book that chronicles the history of national Israel ... BUT, it is primarily a book about Spiritual Israel. This again begs the question ... Who is Spiritual Israel, if it is not the body of believers ... the church ... the seed of Abraham (thru faith) ? Are we gentiles to boast or exhibit conceit ? God forbid ! We are the grafted in branches. But nevertheless, it still remains that only a remnant of the jews will be grafted back in ... we are told this in God's Word. God's covenant with them IS everlasting. And that covenant was and is fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ. Sadly, most of them will not accept this because as in the days of old, they are still looking for an earthly kingdom ... and not for that heavenly city (New Jerusalem) whose founder and builder is God (in Christ).
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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Good morning Crossnote :) Consider the following.


Romans 11;25-27

[SUP]25 [/SUP]I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel (the Nation/people) has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles (other Nations/people) has come in, .... [SUP]26 [/SUP]and in this way, all (Spiritual) Israel will be saved.

Does this mean that "all Israel (the Nation)" will be saved ? How can it when we already know that only a remnant will be ? AND IN THIS WAY ..... all Israel will be saved. What way ?? When the fulness of the gentiles is complete ... (and) including the remnant of God's elect amongst the jews, ... ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED. If ever there was a scripture that makes clear who (Spiritual) Israel is, it is this very one. As I have said previously somewhere else on these threads, the bible is a book that chronicles the history of national Israel ... BUT, it is primarily a book about Spiritual Israel. This again begs the question ... Who is Spiritual Israel, if it is not the body of believers ... the church ... the seed of Abraham (thru faith) ? Are we gentiles to boast or exhibit conceit ? God forbid ! We are the grafted in branches. But nevertheless, it still remains that only a remnant of the jews will be grafted back in ... we are told this in God's Word. God's covenant with them IS everlasting. And that covenant was and is fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ. Sadly, most of them will not accept this because as in the days of old, they are still looking for an earthly kingdom ... and not for that heavenly city (New Jerusalem) whose founder and builder is God (in Christ).
I read Israel has experienced a hardening of heart ...until...(which indicates a future softening)
 
Dec 21, 2012
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It is the modern day pharisees in today's "Israel" that I take issue with. Those who hate Christ (and they do). These are no more "honourable" than any muslim terrorist ... nor are they chosen of God. But many christian westerners today remain afraid to even consider such a thought in lieu of offending God. Those who bless "Israel" ..blah..blah..blah. They haven't a clue who "Israel" is. THIS is the great deception.
Israel will be His people again. Just as they had rejected the chief cornerstone and the despensation of the gospel went to the Gentiles, so will the falling away from the faith signal the end of the times of the Gentiles wherein the despensation of the gospel will go back to the Jews, the 144,000 witnesses after the pre trib rapture for the coming great tribulation.

Read Romans chapter 11 at this link below that God has not cast away His people.

Romans 11 KJV - I say then, Hath God cast away his - Bible Gateway


If someone claims to love today's "Israel", they would recognize that it is the gospel of Jesus Christ that they need to hear more than money for armaments to be used to establish their earthly nation. Abraham looked for an heavenly city whose founder and builder is God. Today's jew and all of us, as in the days of Abraham should be looking for no less. "If you knew Moses, you would know Me ... for Moses spoke of Me".
There is no denying of the Jews need to believe in the gospel, but do remember where we were when God came to our rescue.

Romans 5:[SUP]7 [/SUP]For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So what are believers to do?

1 Timothy 1:[SUP]15 [/SUP]This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Romans 12:[SUP]18 [/SUP]If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

Matthew 5:[SUP]43 [/SUP]Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [SUP]44 [/SUP]But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [SUP]45 [/SUP]That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [SUP]46 [/SUP]For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [SUP]47 [/SUP]And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? [SUP]48 [/SUP]Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Can you imagine being a devout zealous Jews that was being persecuted and christians treated him as they would a neighbour? And then the rapture came and all that they had shared with him comes to light whe He believes in Him?

No what do you think he would testify of the believers for so doing before he was saved? How they did not love them as their neighbor as they would themselves?

What if the shoe was reverse and Mexico & Canada & Cuba were at war with us, lobbing rockets into the US? What if we gave land for peace and yet when they get that land, factions use that land to launch rockets further into the US?

People may get lost in the media as to who did what first, but the telltale sign was when the U.N. recognized Israel as a nation because afterwards, Turkey, and other Islamic nations at that time .. attacked Israel in full force & lost. So take that as a clue that we are dealing with bigotry towards the Jewish people. Let us not be one of them because I am certain if USA was being attacked and criticised by the world for defending herself, they would want an ally to stand by them in the world in spite of its deceptions.

Frankly, schools and hospitals being bombed as they blamed Israel for doing so in killing women & children is hardly convincing when they were launching rockets from there. Who in their right mind would have their kids in school when they know they are launching rockets from there? What idiotwould stay in school or even in the area where they had launched rockets from knowing there has to be a retaliation to stop further rocket attacks?

I saw an interview of a Palestinian showing remorse & anger over the deah of his child by the Israelis and in the same beat talks about teaching his remaining child to hate Israel and to die in a jihad by strapping a bomb to him to kill as many Jews as he could. Twisted evil here.

The Koran has their "allah" teaching them to lie for peace if it will advance the cause of Islam in the world.

So I have seen enough and read enough scripture to know... we are to love the Jews in telling them the truth and since they will be believing soon, we should sow in tears now with that hope that we shall reap in joy soon, but we should stand by them for that future hope in Christ for them.

So the idea of war & killing as an excuse not to help Israel is liken to ignoring warring Nazis in Europe & the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour. There is a reason why government bears the sword.

Romans 13:1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: [SUP]4 [/SUP]For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

It is hypocritical how when desiring to turn away from the Jews in giving financial aide that we give aide to the Palestinians, but we go one step further by respecting the muslims by not preaching the gospel to them. I would call that being a friend of the world more than being a friend of God. When was the last time a Jew killed a christian as opposed to muslims?

So let's not get caught up in these anti-Israel rhetorics politically and share the gospel to both Jews & muslims while supporting Israel because there is an active bigotry being pushed in the world in the here & now to wipe out Israel.
 

crossnote

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Nov 24, 2012
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addendum : i have never believed all physical Israel will be saved e.g. thos who already died in unbelief butthat there will be a future softening.
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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I read Israel has experienced a hardening of heart ...until...(which indicates a future softening)
hi bro:)

Romans 11
28As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

...

paul said - now...in his day.
doesn't this just mean...until the fullness of the (previously a MYSTERY) of God's Plan (the gentiles would be grafted in) was revealed and confirmed?
 
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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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hi bro:)

Romans 11
28As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

...

paul said - now...in his day.
doesn't this just mean...until the fullness of the (previously a MYSTERY) of God's Plan (the gentiles would be grafted in) was revealed and confirmed?
well sis,
i guess it's where you put the emphaSIS,
Romans 11
28As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.