Christian Truth or Antichrist Deception?

[RachelBibleStudent]

Hebrews 11:8-9 Abraham knew what the real land was.


[SUP]8 [/SUP]By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Which was:
Hebrews 12:22-22
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Here they all came back and received a new heart and new spirit on Pentecost.


Acts 2:[SUP]5 [/SUP]And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.


Hebrews 8:9-10 fulfillment Eze:24-28


[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

this is all very nice...but it doesn't prove the point that some are trying to make...

so the true inheritance of abraham and his spiritual descendants is in heaven...the physical land of israel is not a God given inheritance...i agree with that...

which means that the physical land of israel is just another part of the secular world...no different from the other 57.5 million square miles of land in the world...

meaning it is legitimately available to any secular power that can control it...including rome and byzantium and the caliphs and the crusaders and the ottoman empire and the british empire...and even the state founded by the formerly 'chosen' people known as jews...

 

[SarahM777]

who are our enemies?

until recently we were friendly with arabs.
what happened?

are we suggesting things like Iran wants to blow up the world, so we have to hit them first?
the latest out on that is no nuke program.

just like Iraq.
no WMD.

what are we doing over there?

The real question is did we really help ourselves out in this or have we made things much worse because of it? And how many innocents had to die because of it?

 

[zone]

this is all very nice...but it doesn't prove the point that some are trying to make...

so the true inheritance of abraham and his spiritual descendants is in heaven...the physical land of israel is not a God given inheritance...i agree with that...

which means that the physical land of israel is just another part of the secular world...no different from the other 57.5 million square miles of land in the world...

meaning it is legitimately available to any secular power that can control it...including rome and byzantium and the caliphs and the crusaders and the ottoman empire and the british empire...and even the state founded by the formerly 'chosen' people known as jews...

i would agree with this rachel.
so why are evangelicals calling for involvement in religious disputes between jews and arabs which have nothing to do with us?
if we are to be between them, should it not be with a Bible only?

i understand unbelivers posing as christians in Govt's or even misguided ones think we have to follow a dispensational plan.
but how long will it take us to debunk THAT fable?

zone
ps - i'm glad you're not a dispensationalist.

 

[zone]

The real question is did we really help ourselves out in this or have we made things much worse because of it? And how many innocents had to die because of it?

none of that had anything to do with helping "us" out.
it had nothing to do with us at all.
other than we were made to think it did.

 

[zone]

Agreed on that.

okay Elin.
i'm sorry for misunderstanding you previously.
zone.

 

[crossnote]

crossnote.
most jews don't believe in any messiah. including those in judaism (which is not remotely close to moses & prophets) - it's another religion altogether.

the long promised messiah came.
those who received Him received the promise.

any who didn't are just like muslims or anyone else. TODAY is the day of salvation.

there are no loose ends or Plan Bs in the wings.

Judaism is a religion. there is no evidence people adhereing to Judaism are ancient Israelites.
no proof of any kind. they may or may not be. but there is no promise for children of the flesh.

the only way to possibly know is what do they profess.
here is a possible exception:

Karaite Judaism or Karaism 1] is a Jewish movement characterized by the recognition of the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) alone as its supreme legal authority
wiki.

even that will do no good if they don't see Jesus through Moses and the prophets.

there is no outstanding promise to be fulfilled other than what anyone may receive through the Gospel we preach, in our duties under the Great Commission.

Hmm, don't see any disagreement with my original...' Originally Posted by crossnote
A Jew is still a Jew when he receives his long promised Messiah but a Muslim must renounce the false teachings of Islam when he becomes a Christian.
True though as Christians we are not to be unequally yoked with non believers.'
... I think you are referring to those who have rejected their Scriptures dealing with thier Messiah. Though in unbelief God is still dealing with them which will climax in Jacob's Trouble and a final
ingathering/grafting back into the Olive Tree.

~your dispy Lutheran friend

 

[Elin]

A Jew is still a Jew when he receives his long promised Messiah but a Muslim must renounce the false teachings of Islam when he becomes a Christian.
True though as Christians we are not to be unequally yoked with non believers.

If by "Jew" you mean Judaism, than that is not really true when a Jew receives Jesus the Christ.

He is no longer under the Sinaitic (Old) Covenant with its curses for imperfect obedience, which as been abolished (Heb 8:13),
but is under a New Covenant made in the blood of Jesus the Christ, its mediator.

He is no longer under the Mosaic ceremonial laws of Leviticus regarding clean and unclean food, persons, houses (Lev 11-15).

There is no Day of Atonement (Lev 16) for him, because full and complete atonement has now been permanently made for his sin.

He is no longer under the Mosaic Law, but is under the Law of Christ (1Co 9:20-21; Gal 6:2)), which is the royal law of love (Jas 2:8; (Gal 5:6) and which fulfills (performs) the Law (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10), because

if I love God, I will not take his name in vain, nor worship idols;
if I love my parents, I will honor them;
if I love my neighbors, I will not steal from them, murder them, commit adultery with their spouses,
norlust after their possessions.

He is no longer under the Mosaic ceremonial laws of Leviticus regarding clean and unclean food, persons, houses (Lev 11-15).

There is no Day of Atonment (Lev 16) for him, because atonement has now been permanently made for his sin.

The Feasts of the Law are all now fulfilled in Christ, their reality, of which they were only shadows (Heb 10:1; Col 2:17).

 

[Elin]

A Jew is still a Jew when he receives his long promised Messiah but a Muslim must renounce the false teachings of Islam when he becomes a Christian.
True though as Christians we are not to be unequally yoked with non believers.

If by "Jew" you mean Judaism, than that is not really true when a Jew receives Jesus the Christ.

He is no longer under the Sinaitic (Old) Covenant with its curses for imperfect obedience, which has been abolished (Heb 8:13),
but is under a New Covenant made in the blood of Jesus the Christ, its mediator.

He is no longer under the Mosaic ceremonial laws of Leviticus regarding clean and unclean food, persons, houses (Lev 11-15).

There is no Day of Atonement (Lev 16) for him, because full and complete atonement has now been permanently made for his sin.

The Feasts of the Law are all now fulfilled for him in Christ, their realtiy, of which they were only shadows (Heb 10:1; Col 2:17).

He is no longer under the Mosaic Law, but is under the Law of Christ (1Co 9:20-21; Gal 6:2)), which is the royal law of love (Jas 2:8; Gal 5:6) and which fulfills (performs) the Law (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10), because

if I love God, I will not take his name in vain, nor worship idols;
if I love my parents, I will honor them;
if I love my neighbors, I will not steal from them, murder them, commit adultery with their spouses,
nor lust after their possessions.

So love fulfills (performs) the law.

Like the Muslim, the Jew also makes a lot of changes when he comes to Jesus the Christ.

 

[SarahM777]

none of that had anything to do with helping "us" out.
it had nothing to do with us at all.
other than we were made to think it did.

After thinking about I really botched that up. Did we really have to go to war to get Bin Laden? (That is on the premise that he was actually the master mind behind the attacks) I am not totally convinced anymore,and even if he was why did we have to go to war,unless there was another purpose behind it.

 

[zone]

If by "Jew" you mean Judaism, than that is not really true when a Jew receives Jesus the Christ.

He is no longer under the Sinaitic (Old) Covenant with its curses for imperfect obedience, which has been abolished (Heb 8:13)

but there is no Mosaic Covenant.
so they are going through more than empty motions.
that religion has been gone for 2000 years > it became Christianity or it was nothing.

the Old Covenant curses were already poured out.

something else exists today though - the religion the Pharisees were developing already in Jesus' Day.
it is opposed to not only Jesus, but Moses & the Prophets as well.
it's a dark shadow of even them.
the prophets themselves are given mere lip service, barely mentioned and at times dishonored in it.
that's all i have to say about that.

 

[Elin]

who are our enemies?

until recently we were friendly with arabs.
what happened?

are we suggesting things like Iran wants to blow up the world, so we have to hit them first?
the latest out on that is no nuke program.
if they develop one now who would blame them really?
threatened and sanctioned and the nations around them falling in the George Soros Arab Spring?

just like Iraq.
no WMD.
now a wasteland with the world's largest military base of operations.

what are we doing over there?

why are we guarding poppy fields?

and now Syria. oddly, those 3 nations christians had some freedom and safety.
not anymore.

Our enemies are those who harbor Islamic terrorists, whose goal is quite clear.

 

[Elin]

this is all very nice...but it doesn't prove the point that some are trying to make...

so the true inheritance of abraham and his spiritual descendants is in heaven...the physical land of israel is not a God given inheritance...i agree with that...

which means that the physical land of israel is just another part of the secular world...no different from the other 57.5 million square miles of land in the world...

meaning it is legitimately available to any secular power that can control it...including rome and byzantium and the caliphs and the crusaders and the ottoman empire and the british empire...and even the state founded by the formerly 'chosen' people known as jews...

Well, I was addressing only the sorting out of the Scriptures involved.

I was not addressing the future of Israel.

 

[zone]

Our enemies are those who harbor Islamic terrorists, whose goal is quite clear.

oh well.
it's a little more involved than that.
quite a bit more.
nothing is what it seems.

most of the islamic terrorists on the loose today have had some vacation time at GITMO, or "american" training camps.
i know i know...."Thats preposterous!"

anyways. Wahhabism ought to be investigated. where did it come from?
i'm not defending islam.

just saying there's more than meets the eye.

and that's all i got to say about that
for now.

 

[Elin]

If by "Jew" you mean Judaism, than that is not really true when a Jew receives Jesus the Christ.

He is no longer under the Sinaitic (Old) Covenant with its curses for imperfect obedience, which as been abolished (Heb 8:13),
but is under a New Covenant made in the blood of Jesus the Christ, its mediator.

He is no longer under the Mosaic ceremonial laws of Leviticus regarding clean and unclean food, persons, houses (Lev 11-15).

There is no Day of Atonement (Lev 16) for him, because full and complete atonement has now been permanently made for his sin.

He is no longer under the Mosaic Law, but is under the Law of Christ (1Co 9:20-21; Gal 6:2)), which is the royal law of love (Jas 2:8; (Gal 5:6) and which fulfills (performs) the Law (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10), because

if I love God, I will not take his name in vain, nor worship idols;
if I love my parents, I will honor them;
if I love my neighbors, I will not steal from them, murder them, commit adultery with their spouses,
norlust after their possessions.

He is no longer under the Mosaic ceremonial laws of Leviticus regarding clean and unclean food, persons, houses (Lev 11-15).

There is no Day of Atonment (Lev 16) for him, because atonement has now been permanently made for his sin.

The Feasts of the Law are all now fulfilled in Christ, their reality, of which they were only shadows (Heb 10:1; Col 2:17).

but there is no Mosaic Covenant.
so they are going through more than empty motions.
that religion has been gone for 2000 years > it became Christianity or it was nothing.

the Old Covenant curses were already poured out.

something else exists today though - the religion the Pharisees were developing already in Jesus' Day.
it is opposed to not only Jesus, but Moses & the Prophets as well.
it's a dark shadow of even them.
the prophets themselves are given mere lip service, barely mentioned and at times dishonored in it.
that's all i have to say about that.

Which probably says it all.

However, I was speaking from the prospective of a Jew still practicing Judaism.

He doesn't know or understand all those things until he comes to Jesus the Christ.

 

[Crossfire]

Our enemies are those who harbor Islamic terrorists, whose goal is quite clear.

Yes, various Arabs were our friends not long ago but that was before Muslim extremism began to take over governments throughout the Middle East. Keep in mind that the modern nations of Iraq, Iran, Syria and Jordan are all relatively new nations less than a century old.

 

[zone]

Yes, various Arabs were our friends not long ago but that was before Muslim extremism began to take over governments throughout the Middle East. Keep in mind that the modern nations of Iraq, Iran, Syria and Jordan are all relatively new nations less than a century old.

croosfire.
we only called them "extremists" because they didn't like our Shah.
and they don't like Unocal's Hamid Karzai.
and they don't like the Saudi Royal Family < you figure out who they are.

anyway...what business is it of ours if they take over other countri....oh....right.

there's one country we have to kill and die for. or we will be cursed.



"God has promised to bless the man or nation that blesses the Chosen People. History has proven beyond reasonable doubt that the nations that have blessed the Jewish people have had the blessing of God; the nations that have cursed the Jewish people have experienced the curse of God."
CUFI

very poor scholarship to say the least.
worked like a charm though.

 

[Abiding]

Hmm, don't see any disagreement with my original...' Originally Posted by crossnote
A Jew is still a Jew when he receives his long promised Messiah but a Muslim must renounce the false teachings of Islam when he becomes a Christian.
True though as Christians we are not to be unequally yoked with non believers.'
... I think you are referring to those who have rejected their Scriptures dealing with thier Messiah. Though in unbelief God is still dealing with them which will climax in Jacob's Trouble and a final
ingathering/grafting back into the Olive Tree.

~your dispy Lutheran friend

Jacobs trouble=70 yr captivity in babylon
olive tree grafting back=church age
your non-dispie friend

 

[Crossfire]

this is all very nice...but it doesn't prove the point that some are trying to make...

so the true inheritance of abraham and his spiritual descendants is in heaven...the physical land of israel is not a God given inheritance...i agree with that...

which means that the physical land of israel is just another part of the secular world...no different from the other 57.5 million square miles of land in the world...

meaning it is legitimately available to any secular power that can control it...including rome and byzantium and the caliphs and the crusaders and the ottoman empire and the british empire...and even the state founded by the formerly 'chosen' people known as jews...

While I can't think of the exact scriptural references off hand, I do believe that there are certain biblical prophecies involving Israel that have yet to happen which would require Israel to have physical boundaries. The battle of Gog & Magog comes to mind seeing as the tribes (nations) listed have never once in history unified to wage war against Israel.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Our enemies are those who harbor Islamic terrorists, whose goal is quite clear.

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

 

[SarahM777]

While I can't think of the exact scriptural references off hand, I do believe that there are certain biblical prophecies involving Israel that have yet to happen which would require Israel to have physical boundaries. The battle of Gog & Magog comes to mind seeing as the tribes (nations) listed have never once in history unified to wage war against Israel.

I believe you are referring to Ezekiel 38

38 The word of the Lord came to me: [SUP]2 [/SUP]&#8220;Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of[SUP][a][/SUP] Meshek and Tubal; prophesy against him [SUP]3 [/SUP]and say: &#8216;This is what the SovereignLord says: I am against you, Gog, chief prince of[SUP][b][/SUP] Meshek and Tubal. [SUP]4 [/SUP]I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army&#8212;your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Persia, Cush[SUP][c][/SUP] and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, [SUP]6 [/SUP]also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops&#8212;the many nations with you.
...