What is the Messianic Kingdom?
- Thread starter Elin
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
P
The Scriptures are not talking about Jesus sitting on the literal, physical throne that David sat on. Jesus sitting on David's throne means the same thing that Jesus meant when he said that the Pharisees "sit in Moses' seat." He didn't mean they literally sat on some physical chair Moses once sat on. It means they occupied the seat or position of authority that Moses had. And that's what it means that Jesus will sit on the throne of David, meaning he occupires the seat or position of authority that David did, the authority of King.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
even patient, kind, disciplined well-studied teachers like Elin and Pilgrimer you just dismiss. with a sneer.
to your shame really, because you're just stubbornly holding on to an unworkable wooden literalism.
you're inconsistent from one post to the the next because you have to be - your system doesn't work and it never will.
but you interpret others trying to help you as conflict, or their ignorance, or most commonly not understanding what you believe.
i understand what you believe.
i've been here long enough and read enough to know very well what you believe.
i've discussed, debated and examined with you. for years.
and you haven't moved an inch. in spite of the clear meaning of scripture, no matter who shows it you, or how many times.
it's pride EG.
unfortunately.
you've been teaching this stuff for so long, to so many, and have so much invested i guess.
i sympathize. i honestly do.
it's too bad.
because it's so clear what it's saying.
and so Beautiful.
and so Fulfilled, and being fulfilled.
Daniel 2
Daniel Interprets the Dream
31“You saw, O king, and behold, a great image. This image, mighty and of exceeding brightness, stood before you, and its appearance was frightening. 32The head of this image was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its middle and thighs of bronze, 33its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
36“This was the dream. Now we will tell the king its interpretation. 37You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory, 38and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the children of man, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens, making you rule over them all—you are the head of gold. 39Another kingdom inferior to you shall arise after you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things. And like iron that crushes, it shall break and crush all these. 41And as you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom, but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the soft clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. 43As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage,c but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, 45just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”
And in the days of those kings < 10 Caesars and 7 Herods.
in the very days of all those kings....from Augutus to Titus (10), and from Antipater to Agrippa I (7)...Jesus would be born, live and die....He is the Stone....the One the Builders rejected. right in the very days of those kings He achieved the victory. He is King forever.
the Stone that struck the image...and dispensed with any other KING for all who would have Him to rule over them.
those who won't, well...He said what will happen to them.
nothing about some restoration to Palestine on the backs and blood of the poor...like you said : NO GENTILES.
that what the jews want to. No gentiles.
but Christ died for them, and saved them, and it was the Eternal Purpose to do so.
that's why i no longer consider you my friend.
you're just like they are. and you blame that kind of ideology on God.
Luke 19
The Parable of the Ten Minas
11As they heard these things, he proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately. 12He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return. 13Calling ten of his servants,a he gave them ten minas,b and said to them, ‘Engage in business until I come.’ 14But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’ 15When he returned, having received the kingdom, he ordered these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by doing business. 16The first came before him, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made ten minas more.’ 17And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant!c Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.’ 18And the second came, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made five minas.’ 19And he said to him, ‘And you are to be over five cities.’ 20Then another came, saying, ‘Lord, here is your mina, which I kept laid away in a handkerchief; 21for I was afraid of you, because you are a severe man. You take what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’ 22He said to him, ‘I will condemn you with your own words, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then did you not put my money in the bank, and at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’ 24And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to the one who has the ten minas.’ 25And they said to him, ‘Lord, he has ten minas!’ 26‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 27But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”
that Stone that became a great mountain and is filling the whole earth.
His Church.
Amen.
to your shame really, because you're just stubbornly holding on to an unworkable wooden literalism.
you're inconsistent from one post to the the next because you have to be - your system doesn't work and it never will.
but you interpret others trying to help you as conflict, or their ignorance, or most commonly not understanding what you believe.
i understand what you believe.
i've been here long enough and read enough to know very well what you believe.
i've discussed, debated and examined with you. for years.
and you haven't moved an inch. in spite of the clear meaning of scripture, no matter who shows it you, or how many times.
it's pride EG.
unfortunately.
you've been teaching this stuff for so long, to so many, and have so much invested i guess.
i sympathize. i honestly do.
it's too bad.
because it's so clear what it's saying.
and so Beautiful.
and so Fulfilled, and being fulfilled.
Daniel 2
Daniel Interprets the Dream
31“You saw, O king, and behold, a great image. This image, mighty and of exceeding brightness, stood before you, and its appearance was frightening. 32The head of this image was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its middle and thighs of bronze, 33its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
36“This was the dream. Now we will tell the king its interpretation. 37You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory, 38and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the children of man, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens, making you rule over them all—you are the head of gold. 39Another kingdom inferior to you shall arise after you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things. And like iron that crushes, it shall break and crush all these. 41And as you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom, but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the soft clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. 43As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage,c but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, 45just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”
And in the days of those kings < 10 Caesars and 7 Herods.
in the very days of all those kings....from Augutus to Titus (10), and from Antipater to Agrippa I (7)...Jesus would be born, live and die....He is the Stone....the One the Builders rejected. right in the very days of those kings He achieved the victory. He is King forever.
the Stone that struck the image...and dispensed with any other KING for all who would have Him to rule over them.
those who won't, well...He said what will happen to them.
nothing about some restoration to Palestine on the backs and blood of the poor...like you said : NO GENTILES.
that what the jews want to. No gentiles.
but Christ died for them, and saved them, and it was the Eternal Purpose to do so.
that's why i no longer consider you my friend.
you're just like they are. and you blame that kind of ideology on God.
Luke 19
The Parable of the Ten Minas
11As they heard these things, he proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately. 12He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return. 13Calling ten of his servants,a he gave them ten minas,b and said to them, ‘Engage in business until I come.’ 14But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’ 15When he returned, having received the kingdom, he ordered these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by doing business. 16The first came before him, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made ten minas more.’ 17And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant!c Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.’ 18And the second came, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made five minas.’ 19And he said to him, ‘And you are to be over five cities.’ 20Then another came, saying, ‘Lord, here is your mina, which I kept laid away in a handkerchief; 21for I was afraid of you, because you are a severe man. You take what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’ 22He said to him, ‘I will condemn you with your own words, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then did you not put my money in the bank, and at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’ 24And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to the one who has the ten minas.’ 25And they said to him, ‘Lord, he has ten minas!’ 26‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 27But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”
that Stone that became a great mountain and is filling the whole earth.
His Church.
Amen.
Last edited:
A
""Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. "And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHERABANDONED TOHADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFERDECAY. "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORDSAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHTHAND, UNTILI MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET." ' "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified." (Acts 2:29-36)
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
"Is this man Coniah a despised, shattered jar? Or is he an undesirable vessel? Why have he and his descendants been hurled out And cast into a land that they had not known? "O land, land, land, Hear the word of the LORD! "Thus says the LORD, 'Write this man down childless, A man who will not prosper in his days; For no man of his descendants will prosper Sitting on the throne of David Or ruling again in Judah.' " (Jeremiah 22:28-30)
"After the deportation to Babylon: Jeconiah became the father of Shealtiel, and Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel. " (Matthew 1:12)
Jesus came from Jeconiah's(Coniah) line so He cant sit as a King on Davids throne on earth. the throne of David is forever in heaven. Also Hes not a Levite.
Only until the second coming. then He delivers it to the Father.
"In that day I will raise up the fallen booth of David, And wall up its breaches; I will also raise up its ruins And rebuild it as in the days of old; That they may possess the remnant of Edom And all the nations who are called by My name," Declares the LORD who does this. " (Amos 9:11-12)
"Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 'AFTERTHESETHINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT, SO THAT THE REST OFMANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILESWHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,' SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKESTHESETHINGSKNOWN FROM LONGAGO. "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, " (Acts 15:14-19)
"For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORDSAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHTHAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET." ' "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified." " (Acts 2:34-36)
"For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. " (1 Corinthians 15:25-26)
"And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high ... But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM" ... But to which of the angels has He ever said, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET." (Hebrews 1:3,8,13)
"Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. " (Hebrews 10:11-13)
"'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." (Revelation 3:21)
Christ is reigning NOW and will give up the throne to the father at the second coming.
"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. " (1 Corinthians 15:22-28)
Thats my story
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
"Is this man Coniah a despised, shattered jar? Or is he an undesirable vessel? Why have he and his descendants been hurled out And cast into a land that they had not known? "O land, land, land, Hear the word of the LORD! "Thus says the LORD, 'Write this man down childless, A man who will not prosper in his days; For no man of his descendants will prosper Sitting on the throne of David Or ruling again in Judah.' " (Jeremiah 22:28-30)
"After the deportation to Babylon: Jeconiah became the father of Shealtiel, and Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel. " (Matthew 1:12)
Jesus came from Jeconiah's(Coniah) line so He cant sit as a King on Davids throne on earth. the throne of David is forever in heaven. Also Hes not a Levite.
Only until the second coming. then He delivers it to the Father.
"In that day I will raise up the fallen booth of David, And wall up its breaches; I will also raise up its ruins And rebuild it as in the days of old; That they may possess the remnant of Edom And all the nations who are called by My name," Declares the LORD who does this. " (Amos 9:11-12)
"Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 'AFTERTHESETHINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT, SO THAT THE REST OFMANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILESWHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,' SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKESTHESETHINGSKNOWN FROM LONGAGO. "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, " (Acts 15:14-19)
"For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORDSAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHTHAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET." ' "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified." " (Acts 2:34-36)
"For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. " (1 Corinthians 15:25-26)
"And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high ... But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM" ... But to which of the angels has He ever said, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET." (Hebrews 1:3,8,13)
"Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. " (Hebrews 10:11-13)
"'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." (Revelation 3:21)
Christ is reigning NOW and will give up the throne to the father at the second coming.
"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. " (1 Corinthians 15:22-28)
Thats my story
Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 22:22
And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David. He shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Revelation 3:7
“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: ‘The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens.
22. key-emblem of his office over the house; to "open" or "shut"; access rested with him.
upon . shoulder-So keys are carried sometimes in the East, hanging from the kerchief on the shoulder. But the phrase is rather figurative for sustaining the government on one's shoulders. Eliakim, as his name implies, is here plainly a type of the God-man Christ, the son of "David," of whom Isaiah (Isa 9:6) uses the same language as the former clause of this verse. In Re 3:7, the same language as the latter clause is found (compare Job 12:14).
JFBBC
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 22:22
And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David. He shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Revelation 3:7
“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: ‘The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens.
22. key-emblem of his office over the house; to "open" or "shut"; access rested with him.
upon . shoulder-So keys are carried sometimes in the East, hanging from the kerchief on the shoulder. But the phrase is rather figurative for sustaining the government on one's shoulders. Eliakim, as his name implies, is here plainly a type of the God-man Christ, the son of "David," of whom Isaiah (Isa 9:6) uses the same language as the former clause of this verse. In Re 3:7, the same language as the latter clause is found (compare Job 12:14).
JFBBC
In chapters 9-11 Paul is justifying God's righteousness in the rejection of Israel.
In chp 9-10 Paul makes it clear that the basis for Israel's rejection is her unbelief (vv.30-32),
He gives the principle governing Israel's salvation: only the remnant will be saved (9:28).
He explains her unbelief is disobedience (9:30-32).
She failed to obey her own God-given law, which in reality was pointing to Christ.
So in rejecting Christ, they disobeyed God's law.
They did not fail to pursue righteousness, but failed to pursue it by faith instead of works.
Israel pursued the right thing, but in the wrong way.
She stumbled over the stumbling stone of faith in Jesus as the way of righteousness,
she rejected God's way of righteousness and, therefore, was rejected by God.
In chp 11, Paul explains that their rejection is not total, and not final.
There has always been a remnant in Israel chosen by grace (11:5),
and so it is at the present.
But because the majority of Israel was disobedient and refused the way of faith (9:31-32),
God made them impervious to spiritual truth--a judicial hardening of Israel (11:7-8).
The Greek word translated "blindness" in Ro11:25 is porosis, which means "harden."
Note that Paul states Israel is hardened until, not Israel is hardened because, for the sake of, the Gentiles coming in.
So Paul does not explain the reason for Israel's hardening as the means of the Gentiles coming in.
He explains the reason for hardening is her disobedience, of her unbelief, which rejected faith (in Jesus) as the means of righteousness, preferring works instead.
And then as shown throughout the OT, God's punishment fits the crime, according to his law of retaliation (Lev 24:18-21).
Israel did not want faith as the means of righteousness, so God in judgment gave them what they wanted, no faith.
Paul presents Israel's hardening as a judicial hardening.
In chp 9-10 Paul makes it clear that the basis for Israel's rejection is her unbelief (vv.30-32),
He gives the principle governing Israel's salvation: only the remnant will be saved (9:28).
He explains her unbelief is disobedience (9:30-32).
She failed to obey her own God-given law, which in reality was pointing to Christ.
So in rejecting Christ, they disobeyed God's law.
They did not fail to pursue righteousness, but failed to pursue it by faith instead of works.
Israel pursued the right thing, but in the wrong way.
She stumbled over the stumbling stone of faith in Jesus as the way of righteousness,
she rejected God's way of righteousness and, therefore, was rejected by God.
In chp 11, Paul explains that their rejection is not total, and not final.
There has always been a remnant in Israel chosen by grace (11:5),
and so it is at the present.
But because the majority of Israel was disobedient and refused the way of faith (9:31-32),
God made them impervious to spiritual truth--a judicial hardening of Israel (11:7-8).
The Greek word translated "blindness" in Ro11:25 is porosis, which means "harden."
Note that Paul states Israel is hardened until, not Israel is hardened because, for the sake of, the Gentiles coming in.
So Paul does not explain the reason for Israel's hardening as the means of the Gentiles coming in.
He explains the reason for hardening is her disobedience, of her unbelief, which rejected faith (in Jesus) as the means of righteousness, preferring works instead.
And then as shown throughout the OT, God's punishment fits the crime, according to his law of retaliation (Lev 24:18-21).
Israel did not want faith as the means of righteousness, so God in judgment gave them what they wanted, no faith.
Paul presents Israel's hardening as a judicial hardening.
Last edited:
Let me restate the bolded text above.
"So Paul does not explain the reason for Israel's hardening is that God's purpose in election might stand."
1) That locates unbelieving Israel's rejection in God's sovereign choice of election, rather than in their unbelief of their disobedience, as presented by Paul.
2) And that equates unbelieving Israel to Ishmael and Esau who were not rejected because of unbelief, but because of God's sovereign choice in election, and whose rejection from the people of God was final.
Paul does not present Israel's hardening as final.
This explanation of Israel's hardening is not in agreement with what Paul presents regarding it.
"So Paul does not explain the reason for Israel's hardening is that God's purpose in election might stand."
1) That locates unbelieving Israel's rejection in God's sovereign choice of election, rather than in their unbelief of their disobedience, as presented by Paul.
2) And that equates unbelieving Israel to Ishmael and Esau who were not rejected because of unbelief, but because of God's sovereign choice in election, and whose rejection from the people of God was final.
Paul does not present Israel's hardening as final.
This explanation of Israel's hardening is not in agreement with what Paul presents regarding it.
A
The hardening didnt cause the unbelief, the unbelief caused the hardening.
The same is said of the gentiles. That warning is given to both jew and gentile
in the book of Hebrews and elsewhere in scripture.
Rom 11:[SUP]20 [/SUP]Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:[SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Heb 4:4 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
The same is said of the gentiles. That warning is given to both jew and gentile
in the book of Hebrews and elsewhere in scripture.
Rom 11:[SUP]20 [/SUP]Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:[SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Heb 4:4 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Paul does not present Israel as an entire people's hardening as final.
he reiterates repeatedly, the remnant shall be saved.
in the very same way ('and so') they were saved in Elijah's day.
the hardening is not partly for something, or partially for a time.
it's part of the entire community of people.
the vast number of them.
the cut off due to unbelief. THAT PART.
but if they do not continue in unbelief, they will be grafted back in.
the very same condition for regeneration we all have.
no difference.
he's saying that BUT FOR the election (purpose, manner, choice) of God, they would ALL have been cut off...not just PART (in part)
he reiterates repeatedly, the remnant shall be saved.
in the very same way ('and so') they were saved in Elijah's day.
the hardening is not partly for something, or partially for a time.
it's part of the entire community of people.
the vast number of them.
the cut off due to unbelief. THAT PART.
but if they do not continue in unbelief, they will be grafted back in.
the very same condition for regeneration we all have.
no difference.
he's saying that BUT FOR the election (purpose, manner, choice) of God, they would ALL have been cut off...not just PART (in part)
Last edited:
E
You want to continue to go here. After I proved to you from scripture, That God told abraham WHEN HE GAVE HIM THE LAND.
1. “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years.
2. And also the nation whom they serve I will judge;
3. afterward they shall come out with great possessions.
All the above speaking of egypt. Whome God brought them out wiht many possessions, and punished egypt by destroying his army at the red sea.
And why did God wait 400 years?? he tells us!. Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
God did not just go take a land from people. He waited until the iniquity (ability of people to be saved) had come to the age there was no hope. Thats why when he sent them into the land, he told them to kill them all, because these people had gotten so sinfull, there was no way they could be changed.
People still believed in God back then,, the amorites probably had many God fearing people at this time.
Either way, it does not matter. God answered your question.. Which is why I suggested you study some.. I was not trying to be mean!
1. “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years.
2. And also the nation whom they serve I will judge;
3. afterward they shall come out with great possessions.
All the above speaking of egypt. Whome God brought them out wiht many possessions, and punished egypt by destroying his army at the red sea.
And why did God wait 400 years?? he tells us!. Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
God did not just go take a land from people. He waited until the iniquity (ability of people to be saved) had come to the age there was no hope. Thats why when he sent them into the land, he told them to kill them all, because these people had gotten so sinfull, there was no way they could be changed.
People still believed in God back then,, the amorites probably had many God fearing people at this time.
Either way, it does not matter. God answered your question.. Which is why I suggested you study some.. I was not trying to be mean!