Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

[zone]

YAY!

 

[cfultz3]

Wrong address.

Should be Jn 1:7.

Sorry about not having color coding.....




Joh 1:7 ουτοςG3778 D-NSM ηλθενG2064 V-2AAI-3S ειςG1519 PREP μαρτυριανG3141 N-ASF ιναG2443 CONJ μαρτυρησηG3140 V-AAS-3S περιG4012 PREP τουG3588 T-GSN φωτοςG5457 N-GSN ιναG2443 CONJ παντεςG3956 A-NPM πιστευσωσινG4100 V-AAS-3P διG1223 PREP αυτουG846 P-GSM


Joh 1:7 The sameG3778 cameG2064 forG1519 a witness,G3141 toG2443 bear witnessG3140 ofG4012 theG3588 Light,G5457 thatG2443 allG3956 men throughG1223 himG846 might believe.G4100




might believe = notice the absence of G1410 or G2480. But, notice the subjunctive (V-AAS-3P)


What did John (v6) do?
He witnesses about the Light (v7).
So that through Christ we could believe, as opposed to through the Law.

 

[Abiding]

John 6
35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

looks like Father's Will is
that Jesus receives every single one The Father gives Him.
He never casts them away.
He doesn't lose any.
that's the Father's Will.

so....does The Father fail?

it says Jesus saves every single one the Father gives Him.

that's Father's Will.
every single person Father gives the Son gets saved.

Of coarse you know there are different interpretations of this passage?
And also that the passage doesnt include in them all that goes into that brief truth
it talks of.

The Father, the Son, and the Holyspirit all are part of every mans salvation.
Not just the Father. Elsewhere Jesus says He does the drawing. The Holyspirit
is said to be doing the work. So alone by themself texts dont paint the bigger
picture...just part.

And there is alot to be said of the time and place and specifically who He was talking to
that should be considered also. Although it still generally applies to all of us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Of coarse you know there are different interpretations of this passage?
And also that the passage doesnt include in them all that goes into that brief truth
it talks of.

The Father, the Son, and the Holyspirit all are part of every mans salvation.
Not just the Father. Elsewhere Jesus says He does the drawing. The Holyspirit
is said to be doing the work. So alone by themself texts dont paint the bigger
picture...just part.

And there is alot to be said of the time and place and specifically who He was talking to
that should be considered also. Although it still generally applies to all of us.

[SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

I think that says it all..

 

[mark54]

Please quit acting like a child!!! you guys quit it or im gona keep doing it...bs bud. you live for this.
I told you right off you were right and Ok to teach what Jesus taught. And address Him biblically.
But, others see Jesus more than a man. And to call Him the Son of God is true. Leave it at that.
And noone will ever fight you on it.

If we are to be honest. I start discussing other things. Then a small group of people but in and want to turn the subject round tio Is Jesus God and misconstrue my beliefs. Hardly correct practice, but there you go, this is the internet where people seek to impress others with what they think they know, and not a Spirit filled church.
Who only sees Jesis as a man BTW?
Then i told you.....IF you were gona fight against the belief that Jesus is God then
1 Your going to have trouble
2 If you keep it up your doing it to cause trouble. Knowing full well what your going to expect.

If I accept Christ's words that only the Father is the one true God, and Paul's and John's plain words I may have trouble on the internet, but the ministers in nearly all the trtinitarian churches preach no differently to what I believe. It is the internet fanatic who demands extra biblical beliefs unto salvation(apart from possibly a very few ministers)

Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offense toward God, and toward men.
​Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

I don't think I am condemning myself somehow by standing on the plain scriptures. However, people on the internet who condemn others for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth will one day be held acountable for that, of that I am sure

 

[Abiding]

I don't think I am condemning myself somehow by standing on the plain scriptures. However, people on the internet who condemn others for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth will one day be held acountable for that, of that I am sure

No actually you will be held accountable. Your put a bloody shirt on and
jump into a pond of carniverous fish. then cry about it.
No man is righteous no not one! think on that a tad.
And think hard on causing this fuss...because its you who causes it.

Its not just the internet, come to my town and go to any church
that isnt unis or liberals and you would have the same mess
for sure.

 

[zone]

Of coarse you know there are different interpretations of this passage?
And also that the passage doesnt include in them all that goes into that brief truth
it talks of.

The Father, the Son, and the Holyspirit all are part of every mans salvation.
Not just the Father. Elsewhere Jesus says He does the drawing. The Holyspirit
is said to be doing the work. So alone by themself texts dont paint the bigger
picture...just part.

And there is alot to be said of the time and place and specifically who He was talking to
that should be considered also. Although it still generally applies to all of us.

okay thanks for that.

 

[Abiding]

All cults are graded by who they say Jesus is.
Thats always how its been done since Jesus asked the question....who do people say that "I AM"

 

[zone]

All cults are graded by who they say Jesus is.
Thats always how its been done since Jesus asked the question....who do people say that "I AM"

why do you care?

Doesnt make a bit of difference what Mark believes. Or preaches
since he is either "elect" or "nonelect" So what does it matter?
And who can he hurt? And how in the world could you hope to help?

I think a persons practice should follow their theology thats all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

All cults are graded by who they say Jesus is.
Thats always how its been done since Jesus asked the question....who do people say that "I AM"

The son of God, The suffering servant. The mediator between God and man. the one who takes away the sin of the world, the lamb of God etc etc.

mark would deny none of these things.

he also has said he would leave it be.. but he keeps getting snookered by the same people who refuse to leave it alone and egg him on.. (I made this mistake a few times so I know how it feels)

While I agree he should just leave it be. I think those who egg him on should be chastened also.

 

[Abiding]

why do you care?

I dont actually! But from time to time i feel the need to rebuke him
whether led by the Spirit to do that or whether my flesh just gets tired
of the irritation im not sure.

But either way my theology really does tell me to give em a couple
chances in rebuke then let it go. Im presuming God wants to deal with them
without my messing it up.

But what i understand of reformed teaching which is the motive of my
question. No nonelect can be in deeper weeds with or without good theology.
And no elect can be hurt by it. Monergism! remember?

 

[mark54]

No actually you will be held accountable. Your put a bloody shirt on and
jump into a pond of carniverous fish. then cry about it.
No man is righteous no not one! think on that a tad.
And think hard on causing this fuss...because its you who causes it.

I know no one is righteous, not one Abiding. What has thast got to do with it. It isn't me causing the fuss. It's oithers instigating it, however, I understand why you only want to blame me. I can only say, I have repeatedly asked people in the UK to supply a sermon from any mainline Trinitarian church where the demands made unto salvation and the consequences of getting them wrong on bthe internet are plainly preached from the pulpiut, so far no one has supplied such a sermon, though I accept one or two might actually preach it. You don't understand. This is the internet, people make a god out of head doctrine, for they revel in studying, it is what they revel in doing. They don't do it because they (or most don't, some may) want to come ever closer to God through His Son, for they take huge interest in subjects that can never bring them closer to God and take up their cross evermore and follow after Christ. And due to this on the internet many fanatics appear who make their extra biblical demands that in most cases are not preached by ministers from the pulpit(not in the UK anyways)

Its not just the internet, come to my town and go to any church
that isnt unis or liberals and you would have the same mess
for sure.

Well if you can supply me a few sermons from mainline trinitarian churchers in the states where the minister plainly states from the pulpit that if a person believes Jesus is the Son of God but not the one true God they cannot be saved with that belief, are condemned and will go to hell if they keep that belief I would listen to one, as I have never heard suich a sermon in 30 years of going to church
I do accept some churches in the states will preach it, for over here we tend to be told there are more fanatical churches in your country than ours(sorry but that's what we hear) but I do wonder how many would actually preach from the pulpit that message plainly from the pulpit
You gotta accept Abiding, fanatics come on the internet, and the ACTUAL message preached in nearly all of the churches(in UK anyway) is one that agrees totally witrh my belief
Fanatics come onto these websites
Heck I've read posts of people who think they know more than did Peter, James, John and Paiul

Therepon is right about somerthing. True Christians should be able to get their doctrine from the bible, not Wikki, nor a host of theologians and scholars, and aren't their mministers up to teaching them?

 

[zone]

I dont actually! But from time to time i feel the need to rebuke him
whether led by the Spirit to do that or whether my flesh just gets tired
of the irritation im not sure.

But either way my theology really does tell me to give em a couple
chances in rebuke then let it go. Im presuming God wants to deal with them
without my messing it up.

But what i understand of reformed teaching which is the motive of my
question. No nonelect can be in deeper weeds with or without good theology.
And no elect can be hurt by it. Monergism! remember?

right!

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

in the greek it's a double negative. meaning it is not possible.

and then there are all those passages about deceiving and being deceived.
that would be evil men and imposters and such.

Jesus said His sheep know His voice and will never follow another.
i believe Him.

He also said those who were not His sheep couldn't understand His words.
they couldn't because they were not His sheep.



skinski makes the charge of gnostic*** against reformed theology too.

 

[Abiding]

The son of God, The suffering servant. The mediator between God and man. the one who takes away the sin of the world, the lamb of God etc etc.

mark would deny none of these things.

he also has said he would leave it be.. but he keeps getting snookered by the same people who refuse to leave it alone and egg him on.. (I made this mistake a few times so I know how it feels)

While I agree he should just leave it be. I think those who egg him on should be chastened also.

I agree. I myself dont find anything wrong with his original arguement. But the arguement i do find fault in.
Because he takes it up to the nature of Jesus Christ and denys things past his original argument and pastes
the heretic hat on himself.

When i taught my children to learn to be wise and not fall into traps. I didnt tell them wait untill
the other kids minded their manners. I also taught them they would have to lose to win and explained that.
Jesus should have mentioned all this....wait He did.

We all pick our battles. unless we are fools.

 

[cfultz3]

Well if you can supply me a few sermons from mainline trinitarian churchers in the states where the minister plainly states from the pulpit that if a person believes Jesus is the Son of God but not the one true God they cannot be saved with that belief, are condemned and will go to hell if they keep that belief I would listen to one, as I have never heard suich a sermon in 30 years of going to church
I do accept some churches in the states will preach it, for over here we tend to be told there are more fanatical churches in your country than ours(sorry but that's what we hear) but I do wonder how many would actually preach from the pulpit that message plainly from the pulpit
You gotta accept Abiding, fanatics come on the internet, and the ACTUAL message preached in nearly all of the churches(in UK anyway) is one that agrees totally witrh my belief
Fanatics come onto these websites
Heck I've read posts of people who think they know more than did Peter, James, John and Paiul

Therepon is right about somerthing. True Christians should be able to get their doctrine from the bible, not Wikki, nor a host of theologians and scholars, and aren't their mministers up to teaching them?

Mark drop it. The guy was defending you. Even EG has told you it is best not to fall into that trap. Both you consider brothers. They mean you no harm, but only wish for you to see that such is an endless debate.

 

[mark54]

All cults are graded by who they say Jesus is.
Thats always how its been done since Jesus asked the question....who do people say that "I AM"

Yeah, but how many on the internet would accept Peter's answer today??????

Christ accepted it. He didn't say
'That's not enough Peter, for if you only believe that you will be like cults that will spring up'

Maybe Christ knew something of great importance that many on the internet do not

 

[zone]

brothers!
with an arian!
well then.....

 

[mark54]

I agree. I myself dont find anything wrong with his original arguement. But the arguement i do find fault in.
Because he takes it up to the nature of Jesus Christ and denys things past his original argument and pastes
the heretic hat on himself.
.

Christ has the nature of the Father. The difference here is two things
The title of Christ and whether the Father is greater than he.

If you believe I wear a heretics hat, sobeit, but according to scripture I do not, according to man I do. I stand with scripture, not man

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree. I myself dont find anything wrong with his original arguement. But the arguement i do find fault in.
Because he takes it up to the nature of Jesus Christ and denys things past his original argument and pastes
the heretic hat on himself.

When i taught my children to learn to be wise and not fall into traps. I didnt tell them wait untill
the other kids minded their manners. I also taught them they would have to lose to win and explained that.
Jesus should have mentioned all this....wait He did.

We all pick our battles. unless we are fools.

I agree. My point was it is fine to chasten him. But if you do not chasten the one ridiculing him, making accusations against him, belittling him, egging him on and other things, which are very UNCHRISTIAN LIKE, then your chasten loses its flavor..

 

[Elin]

Sorry about not having color coding.....




Joh 1:7 ουτοςG3778 D-NSM ηλθενG2064 V-2AAI-3S ειςG1519 PREP μαρτυριανG3141 N-ASF ιναG2443 CONJ μαρτυρησηG3140 V-AAS-3S περιG4012 PREP τουG3588 T-GSN φωτοςG5457 N-GSN ιναG2443 CONJ παντεςG3956 A-NPM πιστευσωσινG4100 V-AAS-3P διG1223 PREP αυτουG846 P-GSM


Joh 1:7 The sameG3778 cameG2064 forG1519 a witness,G3141 toG2443 bear witnessG3140 ofG4012 theG3588 Light,G5457 thatG2443 allG3956 men throughG1223 himG846 might believe.G4100




might believe = notice the absence of G1410 or G2480. But, notice the subjunctive (V-AAS-3P)

Thanks.


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