The Fullness of the Gentiles

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#21
I see no reason to believe the translaters of those three translations are in error and that the text does not mean exactly what it says.
of course not, it fits your interpretation. Your following an english translation. not the origional text.

Unless you believe no more gentiles will be saved after.. your interpretation is flawed in a serious way.

Paul is talking about a period of time. Not how many people will get saved. thus again, your translation does not fit.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#22
irrelevant and off topic just more of Zone's sophmoric tactics designed to obfuscate rather then actually deal with the issue. Carry on Zone yoursophmoric actions only serve to display your true colors.

why people keep responding boggles my mind..
 
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doulos

Guest
#23
according to your crackerjack theory, the fullness of everybody ended in 1948 and we are now in LIMBO PROPHETIC TIME because real time has ended.

RIGHT ELLIS

tell us how real time ended after the 7th trump which has already sounded.
Once again you resort to obfuscation and misrepresent the view because you can not prove it worng. The view does not state that the fullness occurred in 1948 nor does it say real time ended in 1948. Carry on with your sophmoric tactics if you must all can see you are willing to resort to any tactic including misrepresentation (I.E. lying) in order to silence those you disagree with.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#24
Once again you resort to obfuscation and misrepresent the view because you can not prove it worng. The view does not state that the fullness occurred in 1948 nor does it say real time ended in 1948. Carry on with your sophmoric tactics if you must all can see you are willing to resort to any tactic including misrepresentation (I.E. lying) in order to silence those you disagree with.
again. Why people keep responding to her bearing false witness just boggles my mind.
 
D

doulos

Guest
#25
of course not, it fits your interpretation. Your following an english translation. not the origional text.

Unless you believe no more gentiles will be saved after.. your interpretation is flawed in a serious way.

Paul is talking about a period of time. Not how many people will get saved. thus again, your translation does not fit.
The full nmber of gentiles will come in before the Lord returns. To say that Gentiles will never quit coming to the Lord would require this age to be eternal.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#26
Was the church fat enough or filled enough by57AD or did it continue to grow and get fatter and fuller as time went on?
i wish i could say i felt sorry for you.
but i don't.

it MEANS UNTIL THE FULFILLING OF THE PROPHECIES AND PLAN AND PURPOSE OF GOD TO OPEN SALVATION TO GENTILES WAS MADE KNOWN, HIS ENTIRE PLAN OF SALVATION COMPLETE.

pléróma: fullness, a filling up
Original Word: πλήρωμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pléróma
Phonetic Spelling: (play'-ro-mah)
Short Definition: fullness, fulfillment, completion
Definition: (a) a fill, fullness; full complement; supply, patch, supplement, (b) fullness, filling, fulfillment, completion.

Cognate: 4138 plḗrōma – "sum total, fulness, even (super) abundance" (BAGD). See 4130 (plēthō).



tell me if you know - when did the Gospel go to the gentiles?


1948?
1967?
2001?
2050?


or here:


Acts 10
Peter’s Vision

9The next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hourb to pray. 10And he became hungry and wanted something to eat, but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11and saw the heavens opened and something like a great sheet descending, being let down by its four corners upon the earth. 12In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” 16This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.

17Now while Peter was inwardly perplexed as to what the vision that he had seen might mean, behold, the men who were sent by Cornelius, having made inquiry for Simon’s house, stood at the gate 18and called out to ask whether Simon who was called Peter was lodging there. 19And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. 20Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation, for I have sent them.” 21And Peter went down to the men and said, “I am the one you are looking for. What is the reason for your coming?” 22And they said, “Cornelius, a centurion, an upright and God-fearing man, who is well spoken of by the whole Jewish nation, was directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and to hear what you have to say.” 23So he invited them in to be his guests.

The next day he rose and went away with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa accompanied him. 24And on the following day they entered Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am a man.” 27And as he talked with him, he went in and found many persons gathered. 28And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean. 29So when I was sent for, I came without objection. I ask then why you sent for me.”

30And Cornelius said, “Four days ago, about this hour, I was praying in my house at the ninth hour,c and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing 31and said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God. 32Send therefore to Joppa and ask for Simon who is called Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the sea.’ 33So I sent for you at once, and you have been kind enough to come. Now therefore we are all here in the presence of God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord.”

Gentiles Hear the Good News
34So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. 36As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), 37you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. 39And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, 40but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, 41not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles
44While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47“Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.



and here:



Acts 9
10Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, 12and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” 13But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. 14And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name.” 15But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. 16For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” 17So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; 19and taking food, he was strengthened.



i doubt you guys can even bear to read this - it means you'll have to REPENT.
and that's not easy...is it.
 
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doulos

Guest
#27
that is a translation of the verse. if you want to stick with what scripture actually states you would learn Greek.....Romans 11:25 Greek Texts and Analysis ...you see even you posted the Strong and it does not list FULL NUMBER but Fullness..... //.... grr formatting errors..... ......... [TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4138 [e]
[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]plērōma
[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]πλήρωμα
[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]fullness
[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-NNS

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
I addressed this in the original post. If fullness meant the blessings being poured out on the church that would have occurred when Christ rebuilt the temple in three days or at the latest pentecost. So why was Paul writing about it as a future event 20+ years after it was already supposedly fulfilled?
 
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Abiding

Guest
#28
So all these diffferent translations have it worng but abiding has it right?
Rom 11:25 My friends, I don't want you Gentiles to be too proud of yourselves. So I will explain the mystery of what has happened to the people of Israel. Some of them have become stubborn, and they will stay like that until the complete number of you Gentiles has come in. - CEV
Rom11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, - NIV
Rom11:25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, - RSV

I'll stick with what Scripture actually states.

Yes they have it wrong. Every greek word has a width wide enough in its meaning to
dive a truck load of heresy in it. We cant just play with single words in a context.

Number was added to force an eschatology. If the text wanted to say a finished number "plaroo"
would have been used. The word used had to do with quality not number.

13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the ​fullness(pleroma) of Christ. 14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.

Watch this:
Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness(pleroma)?rom 11:2

Read that very slow. "riches" "riches of the gentiles" "fullness" "fullness of the gentiles"
This has nothing to do with a number but a time when the gentiles were grafted into the church
in full standing. Done deal centuries ago in case you didnt notice.
Along with Jewish fullness since. Now twain one new man.
 
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doulos

Guest
#29
Yes they have it wrong. Every greek word has a width wide enough in its meaning to
dive a truck load of heresy in it. We cant just play with single words in a context.

Number was added to force an eschatology. If the text wanted to say a finished number "plaroo"
would have been used. The word used had to do with quality not number.

13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the ​fullness(pleroma) of Christ. 14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.

Watch this:
Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness(pleroma)?rom 11:2

Read that very slow. "riches" "riches of the gentiles" "fullness" "fullness of the gentiles"
This has nothing to do with a number but a time when the gentiles were grafted into the church
in full standing. Done deal centuries ago in case you didnt notice.
Along with Jewish fullness since. Now twain one new man.
As I have already pointed out if plemora is to be used in the manner you suggest, then the fullness would have either occurred when Christ rebuilt the temple in 3 day's or at the latest pentecost. So why was Paul wrriting about this as a future event some 20+ years after the fact?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#30
how long did Paul say we were supposed to put up with these people bringing another gospel and speaking of another christ?

what did he say?

Galatians 1
No Other Gospel

6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

10For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servantb of Christ.


anathema: that which is laid up, i.e. a votive offering
Original Word: ἀνάθεμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: anathema
Phonetic Spelling: (an-ath'-em-ah)
Short Definition: a curse, a cursed thing
Definition: a votive offering, a thing devoted to God; a curse, the thing cursed.

331 anáthema (from 303 /aná, "up" concluding a process, which intensifies 5087 /títhēmi, "to place") – properly, place up, referring to something pledged (given up) to destruction; a divine curse/ban ("accursed"); an "oath-curse."

[331 (anáthema) is the root of the English word, "anathema."]




this is THE GOSPEL OF SALVATION! we are supposed to be taking care of it!
all this talk of Keeping The Commandments and the Faith of Jesus and we can't even DEFEND THE SIMPLE GOSPEL?

God have Mercy on us all for allowing this stuff.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#31
As I have already pointed out if plemora is to be used in the manner you suggest, then the fullness would have either occurred when Christ rebuilt the temple in 3 day's or at the latest pentecost. So why was Paul wrriting about this as a future event some 20+ years after the fact?

I know you have said that. I never asked tho why?
why do you say that? I dont see your point.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#32
I addressed this in the original post. If fullness meant the blessings being poured out on the church that would have occurred when Christ rebuilt the temple in three days or at the latest pentecost. So why was Paul writing about it as a future event 20+ years after it was already supposedly fulfilled?
??? it was fulfilled in 70 AD when the Jews were judged and the earthly temple, the one spoken of in the verses Below was destroyed.....<really wish my enter key was fixed> ...........Galatians 4.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, [SUP]24 [/SUP]which things are symbolic. For these are the[SUP][d][/SUP] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— [SUP]25 [/SUP]for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children
the Jerusalem of NOW was destroyed as was the first covenant made void. now there is only the eternal covenant and the Heavenly Jerusalem until Christ makes a NEW Heaven and a NEW Earth after the destruction of the current one.................Jesus mediated a NEW covenant............Hebrews 8
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— [SUP]9 [/SUP]not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [SUP]11 [/SUP]None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds[SUP][b][/SUP] I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
the FIRST covenant vanished with the destruction of the temple, no more animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins. NOW as in TODAY we have only the blood of Jesus to cleanse people, as a propitiation of sins, who died for the remission of sins........
 
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A

Abiding

Guest
#33
At the time Paul wrote Romans he was still taking the gospel
to places for the first time where the effect of the gentiles
was strong. And jews and gentiles were rather unfriendly still.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#34
The full nmber of gentiles will come in before the Lord returns. To say that Gentiles will never quit coming to the Lord would require this age to be eternal.
this does not make sense. People will come to Christ in eternity> how can that happen?

If Christ comes at the end of this time as you say, then how could the blindness be removed from Isreal and they all be saved. there would be no time for this.

either way you look at it. your thinking is flawed my friend.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#35
oh well i gave it a try:p
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#36
Yes they have it wrong. Every greek word has a width wide enough in its meaning to
dive a truck load of heresy in it. We cant just play with single words in a context.

Number was added to force an eschatology. If the text wanted to say a finished number "plaroo"
would have been used. The word used had to do with quality not number.

13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the ​fullness(pleroma) of Christ. 14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.

Watch this:
Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness(pleroma)?rom 11:2

Read that very slow. "riches" "riches of the gentiles" "fullness" "fullness of the gentiles"
This has nothing to do with a number but a time when the gentiles were grafted into the church
in full standing. Done deal centuries ago in case you didnt notice.
Along with Jewish fullness since. Now twain one new man.
It can not be a time when the gentiles were grafted in the church either, this happened long before romans was written, Paul spoke of a future event.
 
D

doulos

Guest
#37
how long did Paul say we were supposed to put up with these people bringing another gospel and speaking of another christ?

what did he say?

Galatians 1
No Other Gospel

6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

10For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servantb of Christ.


anathema: that which is laid up, i.e. a votive offering
Original Word: ἀνάθεμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: anathema
Phonetic Spelling: (an-ath'-em-ah)
Short Definition: a curse, a cursed thing
Definition: a votive offering, a thing devoted to God; a curse, the thing cursed.

331 anáthema (from 303 /aná, "up" concluding a process, which intensifies 5087 /títhēmi, "to place") – properly, place up, referring to something pledged (given up) to destruction; a divine curse/ban ("accursed"); an "oath-curse."

[331 (anáthema) is the root of the English word, "anathema."]




this is THE GOSPEL OF SALVATION! we are supposed to be taking care of it!
all this talk of Keeping The Commandments and the Faith of Jesus and we can't even DEFEND THE SIMPLE GOSPEL?

God have Mercy on us all for allowing this stuff.
Stick to the topic which is when does the fullness of the gentiles occur. I understand you have difficulty dealing with the actual issue because it brings your view into question and you are incapable of proving the fullness of the gentiles occurred in 57AD as you falsely stated. But that is no excuse to try and confuse the issue. It is nothing more then a sophmoric tactic.
 
D

doulos

Guest
#38
this does not make sense. People will come to Christ in eternity> how can that happen?

If Christ comes at the end of this time as you say, then how could the blindness be removed from Isreal and they all be saved. there would be no time for this.

either way you look at it. your thinking is flawed my friend.
My point was that there will be a time when the full number of gentiles does come to the Lord. Otherwise the fulness would never occur and the earth would have to go into eternity.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#39
At the time Paul wrote Romans he was still taking the gospel
to places for the first time where the effect of the gentiles
was strong. And jews and gentiles were rather unfriendly still.
lol. and this has changed? Still happening today :p
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#40
??? it was fulfilled in 70 AD when the Jews were judged and the earthly temple, the one spoken of in the verses Below was destroyed.....<really wish my enter key was fixed> ...........Galatians 4........................................................ the Jerusalem of NOW was destroyed as was the first covenant made void. now there is only the eternal covenant and the Heavenly Jerusalem until Christ makes a NEW Heaven and a NEW Earth after the destruction of the current one.................Jesus mediated a NEW covenant............Hebrews 8 ...........................................................the FIRST covenant vanished with the destruction of the temple, no more animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins. NOW as in TODAY we have only the blood of Jesus to cleanse people, as a propitiation of sins, who died for the remission of sins........
/. Fullness = fulfillment of Scripture.....as shown by the other uses of the word in Greek.....the destruction of the temple in 70 Ad fulfilled a lot of the prophecies Jesus and His disciples spoke of and most believe that all of the NT was written BEFORE its destruction.