The good/bad things

Hello All!

Before I begin this post, I would first like to mention that I AM a believer in God, in His Word, and in Jesus Christ. But though I am a believer, I don’t know if I would call myself a Christian, because from my personal experience (I was raised around “Christians”, and my father was a preacher); many Christians seem just as bad as the people who they condemn.

I am hoping to find someone who I can have an enlightening exchange with, not someone who is going to sit on their high horse and talk down to me because my beliefs aren’t exactly in line with theirs. I’m hoping to find someone who can look at the world as it is…and not the fairy tale of how it should be.

I see the flaws in my ways of thinking, but my perspective is based upon things that I have witnessed and experienced.

I would very much like to find someone who could maybe…help to turn me on to a better path.

I guess…in a way…this is my cry for help.

***

When discussing the condition of our world with Christians, they very rightly give praise for all the good things to our Lord; after all, He is the creator of everything. But when discussing the negative aspects of our world, the blame is placed upon Satan; the blame is placed upon man and our “free will”. Sometimes “no one is to blame”.

The thing is this: man has many flaws and limitation, Satan and his fallen angels are powerful, but they too have limitations. So why is it that when bad things happen in the world, ALL blame is placed upon the flawed, limited beings; while the ONE being who is the creator of EVERYTHING, who is ALL seeing, ALL knowing, ALL powerful, ALL omnipotent…isn’t held the slightest bit responsible for any of it?

Thanks in advance for you input!

I figure I could get into a long speech about all you ask, and how I came to the truth I hope you will see and receive here.
But the truth is life, the world is filled with tribulations, sin, difficulties ect..
I can only tell you what Jesus has showm me, taught me.
That it is not about blame, or who is responsible.
But about victory over all of it.
A victory filled with courage, streangth, mercy, compassion,humility, and perfect love by becoming the least for another's sake.
Jesus said, in the world you have tribulation, but take courage, I have overcome the world!
These simple words opened my eyes and ears.
Simply said, Jesus showed me His heart,love and victory.
It is seeing self, then
in setting self aside, the truth is revieled.

Jesus said, in the world you have tribulation, but take courage, I have overcome the world!

God bless
pickles

I have to sign off now,but Ill try to answer any questions you have later when I am able to return.
Im certain there are others here who can do better though, so hopefully you will be satisfied.

God bless
pickles

Hi. Welcome

Let me start by saying that you are not alone in thinking those thoughts about God. I don't know how many nights I have wasted asking such questions. I'm not even confident I have a good answer yet... but here is my thoughts:


It usually starts a little something like this;
"God, how can you just stand idly by and let satan rule the world? You don't love us after all, do you?"
.... "you say you are our father, but what father would stand idly by while a gang evil men beat their kid to near death? or ignored it if they heard them tell their kids to eat poison .... or ..... or "

The nearest I get to an answer is that, because mankind is so evil... the only way God can stop it is by constantly overriding our free will. He HAS done it in the past (pharaoh for instance), but if He was to do it all the time, then we wouldn't be us... we'd be slaves, even robots, and we are not. We are "children", and children get in trouble.

... but yeah, still I wish that He would sometimes step in in a more visible way and show the evil in the world that it can't always have it's way. One day though.... one day, that is what will happen

To LOLOKGal,

Thank you for your response ma'am; thank you for your words. However, I feel that you, as well as others who have...or may...respond might completely misunderstand my point.
I understand the concept of free will; but there is a deeper, underlying issue I feel that people are willfully blind to.

Allow me to please put in in another way: let's say that I was a scientist who created a brand-new, and completely horrifying virus, for reasons only known to myself. I tell my children "NEVER go down into the basement where my lab is, if you do you could possibly release a flesh-eating virus that will painfully, horribly consume every living thing in the world".

But while I'm away, of course kids will be kids; and they go to the basement anyway to play, break a vile that contains the killer virus, and release it into the atmosphere. Hundreds of thousand of people suffer or die before I find a cure to save the world.

Then, on a televised broadcast, I put complete blame on my children for releasing this virus into the world. Because if they had just listened to me, it would not have happen. I am sure to point out that I didn't "make" my children do this; that they did it of their own free will.

So now...

Are the children held SOLELY responsible for the suffering of thousands because they did not listen to me, and are the ones who released the virus? While I...the one who created the virus in the first place (the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...for those who may not have figured it out) is held totally, completely unaccountable in any way?
Don't get me wrong, I am not putting total blame on God for the condition of our world. But even as a child, I remember sitting in church sermons and listening to a preacher shouting about how bad humans are, how sinful we are, and how we all deserved death. And even as a child I would think to myself...I did not ask to be the way that I am; but because I was born this way I will be looked upon by God as one of the dirty, filthy humans who destroyed His perfect world. I felt guilty for being alive. But I did not ask to be a sinner; nor did I ask to be alive.

Will me finding the answer to my personal dilemma change the world; no. In the larger scheme of things, is me finding the answer of any real importance; for everyone except me...no.

God seems to blame us for being hateful, for being lustful, for being prideful...as if WE are the ones who created these negative emotions that plague us. Yes we have free will, but the darker side of our nature, is not something we had a choice in.

DainMorgan,

If God gave mankind and the angels free will does that make God responsible for what they do with it?
My answer is no. Is God still sovereign? Yes! His plan and will are executed over, under, around or
through all the free will decisions being made. Does God put limits on how far evil is permitted to go?
Yes. He frustrates the plans of evil beings when they go too far as in the case where it violates His
purpose and plan for the human race for example.

Are you familiar with the details of the angelic conflict and how it relates to the purpose for the creation of man?

Pemican,

Thank you for your reply...but once again (and I am sure I will have to state it again to others), this is NOT an issue of free will. Not about free will. All Christians seem to use the "free will" card as an answer to all questions, a bandaid to heal all wounds, or a way to ignore the real issue. Not about free will.

To answer your question; yes, I am familiar with the angelic conflict in regards to the creation of man.

I really appreciate you taking the time to read and respond to my post. Thank you.

DainMorgan,

Perhaps we would understand what question you are actually asking if you stated your view, then asked us what we thought of your view.

To ask why God isn't held responsible is to suggest that God is flawed and that His integrity is not perfect. Satan has been trying since he was condemned to the lake of fire to find fault with God. If he can find a weakness in God's integrity then he can say that God is not a perfect judge and has no right to condemn him. This conflict started before the creation of man and continues to this day. God's integrity, His perfect justice and righteousness, remains intact.

Pemican,

Thank you so much for responding!

I feel that we can have a decent exchange with one another now, since you were brave enough to acknowledge the point that I was attempting to discuss; rather than just bombarding me with a bunch Christian rhetoric which has no relation to the subject at hand.

I too believe that God is perfect; but the belief that His every intention is one of total wholesomeness...well...that is a bit harder to believe. See I understand that God gave man free will because He wanted us to love and obey willingly instead of being forced, but if God truly wanted this world to be perfect; then it would be; whether man had free will or not.

The world is the way that it is because this is the way He wants to to be. To say that the world is a "bad world" as the result of Satan's choices, or as a result of mans' choices is pretty much saying that God isn't all-powerful, and that the actions of lesser beings dictate the direction that the world goes into.

But we know that this is not the case, I, and you as a Christian know that God is in total control.

God allows evil, because to some degree, it serves His purpose...or else He would not allow it. So, the most cruel, bloody, violent, horrific things which occur in our world; He allows it because it plays to whatever purpose He has.

You're probably wondering where I'm going with this...

I almost don't have words for the way I feel and what I want to express...

From my experiences and observations of our world; it does not appear that God is 100% good, fair, loving, or just. Yea yea yea...I know what it says in the Bible; but what I have read, and what I have experienced are two different things. It seems that He, like us, His creations, have a light, as well as a dark side. A God who would allow the torture, rape, and murder if someone...as a means of somehow bringing glorification to Himself...well...doesn't seem like the God Christians enjoy preaching about.

To hugely redesign from the original concept, it's like a blind man touching the leg of an elephant. To him he feels a tree trunk, because he cannot see the bigger picture. He only knows what he knows by his limitations, and this doesn't allow for a clear perspective.
Same as with man. We have a limited view of all that goes on. And even worse we tend to focus in on the limited view we have. "Can't see the forest for the trees". And in some cases, we can't see the trees for the branches.
Just because you don't see the effects of actions doesn't mean they don't exist. Life is not about the moment, but the journey, and the role our lives play in it, as well as those that cross our paths.

I once lived in CA. Ended up living out of my car for a few years. I began having anxiety attacks. Being let down by the person i was out there for. So i decided to move back in with my dad on the other side of the country. Six months after moving here i learned that a health issue i was diagnosed with in CA, and was not seen as too big of a concern, had gotten much worse. Within a month i was on dialysis and eventually home dialysis. And having to have emergency dialysis in the ER. My plan in coming back here was to get back on my feet, then move back to CA. On the surface, it seems everything was ruined. My plans were gone. My health a mess.
But, in reality, if i had stayed in CA i would've been much worse off. I had no place to live, and i had many complications. I was in and out of the hospital for years, and even after having a transplant, i continued to be in and out of the hospital and doctors. In CA i had no one to help me. Here i had someone to take care of me when things were so bad i couldn't do it myself.
So, my point? Bad things happened to me. But God took my situation and changed things to where i would be in a better place for when i got sick. Why didn't He prevent it or heal it? No idea. But when i left CA i had a negative view of having to leave. But now i realize not only did i move at the right time, to get the help i needed. But it also was the first step in getting away from someone i should've left years earlier.
I couldn't see the good until later. Sometimes that's life. Perspective plays a part in how we view and understand the world around us.
As a child we think eating cookies for every meal is great and can't possibly be a bad thing. As adults we know how bad it is. Perspective. Understanding. You have to cross a line before it becomes clear.

May not be the kind of answer you Want to hear, but it is one of what i imagine to be a number of answers that, when all put together, forms a better understanding. Like a puzzle.

Ugly,

Thank you for for your response; it is one filled with tremendous wisdom. Though not directly answering my original question; it touches on an answer it in a round-a-bout kind of way.

I too lived in CA for a period of time, and have had a similar experience. People who have never been to California get the impression that it is the place to be if you want to "make it big" in life. But if you are not carefully, you could very easily, and very quickly experience the opposite.

I don't think that I can ever really ask the question that I want to ask, without it being very offensive. I have tried, and the concept seems to boggle the minds of Christians. Sometimes...I wish I could be as closed-minded...that way I could just be safe; instead of being tormented by this reality.

Of course (smile) most people would say that I torment myself; I agree, to an extent.

Thanks again.

Chances are it's not the question itself, but rather your approach to people from the start. The hidden yet not so hidden insult in your above post is a perfect example. When a person approaches with harder questions their attitude and tone goes a long way in determining what type of answers they receive. But the implication that we are a bunch of close minded, blissfully ignorant minions of God wandering around in our shallow stupors, while you only wish you could step down to our level of naive thinking, isn't going to cause others to view you as a genuine seeker, but rather a troll wanting to take passive/aggressive cheap shots.
To believe that you are somehow so much more enlightened that the rest of us, down here, who are not able to comprehend the magnitude of your question, you seemingly brag about dwelling on, doesn't bode for how you are perceived either.
So far all you've done is deny every answer given, talk vaguely about how the question is too much for us to handle, treat us as ignorant and build yourself up as better than us. Maybe that is the problem, and not the question itself.

Depleted,

Thank you for your response, however, every single extended face to face conversation I've had with Christians, especially where the condition of our world is concerned, they do use the "free will" card...other than Satan, who else are they going to blame? I love conversation on religion, I find it very interesting, thus actually pay attention to what is being said.

Ugly,

Again, thank you for your words. I can't help but to admit that...do to my experiences, I do feel a little bitter; but I did not realize how much that bitterness shows though. I actually admire your honesty. I am sorry, I apologize for what comes out as arrogance; I do not believe myself to be more enlightened then you or anyone. If you would permit me, I would like to have more frank exchanges with you. Maybe, if you are willing, you can be the one to enlighten me...that is not sarcasm...I really mean that. Thank you again.

Please elaborate.

I don't claim to know a lot. Or be a deep thinker. Or even all that smart. I'm sure i have my mind closed in some areas, the same as you do, or anyone else on this site. I can't even say i would have the answer if you explained your question more fully. I can only tell you what conclusion i have come to. But what answers may satisfy me and the needs i have may not be the same for you.
This is why i referenced a puzzle piece before. Life is a puzzle. And we only get one piece at a time. And we have no picture to go off of. So we don't know what we're putting together. Along the way we may figure out certain parts, but we don't know the whole picture till we're done. Some people, like yourself, have an almost impatient need to see the whole, completed picture and doesn't want to wait to know the answer. Others have less of a desire, whether it's from a fear of knowing and finding out the end isn't what they expect or hope for or will be happy with. While some may just not care and figure they'll know when they should. And some think they have it all figured out and have nothing to worry about. This last group, to me, are the 'closed minded' people you refer to. But some of those people may even be the fearful ones, that hide behind knowledge, so they don't have to confront what they don't Truly know.

Also i get the bitterness issue. I've dealt with that as well. And i learned that it does come out. It probably shows in your areas of your life than you see.

I get the frustration with what may seem like 'pat, neat, easy little answers'. I have had times where i took issue with this as well, on other topics. But what i would suggest you ask yourself, at least as another puzzle piece, in answering your larger question, are you trying to complicate the situation? Sometimes the reason an answer is so often given, and may seem like an 'easy out' is because it Is the answer. And we believe it Must be more complicated than that. But, that's our hang up. It doesn't make it true just because we want it to be true.

And i think i understand the question you're looking for an answer to. If God knows all things, before they happen, before we were even created, and how bad things would go. How people would suffer, why would this benevolent, pure hearted essence of love create us knowing all that would become of His creation? And if He had foreknowledge of all of the evil and atrocities that would take place during our existence, then why would He put us here and how is He not to blame?
And free will doesn't entirely answer the question, only a small part of it. Because God could have chosen not to create time. A physical realm of existence. Lucifer. Earth. Mankind. But He did so, knowing full well what would be the outcome. So how does His creating all of this make Him not to blame? If He knew we would abuse our free will, then He should not have created us to begin with if He were so loving.
Or, He could have created things differently. Or kept Satan away from Adam and Eve so that the temptation would have never happened and, possibly, they never would have sinned and the world would not be as it is now.
Basically you're saying God could have done a number of things differently knowing that we would end up so horribly. If mankind was never made, free will would not even be an issue, so therefore it is not an answer.

And if i'm correct in my guess that that is what you are asking, i can only tell you the answer i have come to... i don't know. Chances are i'll never know until i enter heaven. And who knows, even then God may not reveal the answer.
I suppose this is where faith comes into play. We have to decide if we trust and believe God is who He says He is, and in providing that trust, that means we have to trust there is good that comes out of it all and more meaning in things than we are capable of knowing while on earth. Or we have to assume God isn't there at all. Or that He is not as benevolent as He portrays Himself to be.
So, the short answer to your question is... no one knows but God.
Now it's up to you to decide if you Have to know to trust God, or if you can have faith that God is who He claims to be, and whether you understand or not, you will believe Him and His reasons, without understanding them.