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I believe this passage is one of the most, if not the most, mis-understood passages used by pre-tribbers in support of a Rapture. Pre-tribbers cite the image of one being taken, one being left behind as the Raptured being taken while the sinner left behind to go through the tribulation. To be honest, that is what I thought for the longest time. Then I saw Mat 13 in a new light:
[h=3]The Parable of the Weeds[/h][SUP]24 [/SUP]Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. [SUP]26 [/SUP]When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
[h=3]The Parable of the Weeds Explained[/h][SUP]36 [/SUP]Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
[SUP]37 [/SUP]He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. [SUP]38 [/SUP]The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, [SUP]39 [/SUP]and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. [SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. [SUP]42 [/SUP]They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.
Seems clear to me that the sinners are the one being taken and the righteous being left behind to reign in the millennium.
Not sure how you read this?
[h=3]The Parable of the Weeds[/h][SUP]24 [/SUP]Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. [SUP]26 [/SUP]When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
[SUP]28 [/SUP]“‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
[h=3]The Parable of the Weeds Explained[/h][SUP]36 [/SUP]Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
[SUP]37 [/SUP]He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. [SUP]38 [/SUP]The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, [SUP]39 [/SUP]and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. [SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. [SUP]42 [/SUP]They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.
Seems clear to me that the sinners are the one being taken and the righteous being left behind to reign in the millennium.
Not sure how you read this?
Concerning the timing of the Tribulation and the Rapture, I think the Bible is pretty clear. Jesus speaks of a period he calls, the Beginnings of Sorrows in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21. The below is from Mat:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[SUP][a][/SUP] these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,[SUP][b][/SUP] and earthquakes in various places. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Jesus then states clearly that the Great Tribulation is AFTER the Beast is seen in the new (not yet built) temple.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[SUP][c][/SUP] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! [SUP]20 [/SUP]And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Paul confirms this timing in 2 Thes 2:
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [SUP]2 [/SUP]not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[SUP][a][/SUP] had come. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[SUP][b][/SUP] is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[SUP][c][/SUP] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
So clearly, the Lord does not come, and the Tribulation does not occur until AFTER the Beast sets up his reign in the new temple in Jerusalem. So what happens before? A whole lot of bad stuff.
Most Bible scholars think the Tribulation is the period of the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and 7 bowls spoken of in Revelation. However, there is no support for this. I used to think the Tribulation started at the 6th seal of Rev 6:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
But this isn't correct either. The "Rapture" or gathering of believers actually occurs at the sounding of the 7th trumpet which is the LAST TRUMP. Rev 11 shows the scene in heaven.
[h=3]Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed[/h][SUP]15 [/SUP]Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[SUP][f][/SUP] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” [SUP]16 [/SUP]And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, [SUP]17 [/SUP]saying:
“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,[SUP][g][/SUP]
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant[SUP][h][/SUP] was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.
Tie this in with:
[h=3]1 Corinthians 15:52[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
We then have the 7 Bowl judgments against the Beast and his kingdom. So pre-tribbers are correct if the see the Tribulation only as the Bowl judgments the the other stuff as the beginnings of sorrows. Christians will not face the Bowls judgments but will go through the 7 seals and 7 trumpets and they are really bad.
I believe we are about to see the 3rd seal opened, the Black Horse who brings great depression and scarcity on the earth. We will see this under Obama's 2nd term. I believe the Lord will come sometime around 2029 - 2033 which is 2,000 years since his Resurrection.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[SUP][a][/SUP] these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,[SUP][b][/SUP] and earthquakes in various places. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Jesus then states clearly that the Great Tribulation is AFTER the Beast is seen in the new (not yet built) temple.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[SUP][c][/SUP] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! [SUP]20 [/SUP]And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Paul confirms this timing in 2 Thes 2:
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [SUP]2 [/SUP]not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[SUP][a][/SUP] had come. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[SUP][b][/SUP] is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[SUP][c][/SUP] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
So clearly, the Lord does not come, and the Tribulation does not occur until AFTER the Beast sets up his reign in the new temple in Jerusalem. So what happens before? A whole lot of bad stuff.
Most Bible scholars think the Tribulation is the period of the 7 seals, 7 trumpets and 7 bowls spoken of in Revelation. However, there is no support for this. I used to think the Tribulation started at the 6th seal of Rev 6:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
But this isn't correct either. The "Rapture" or gathering of believers actually occurs at the sounding of the 7th trumpet which is the LAST TRUMP. Rev 11 shows the scene in heaven.
[h=3]Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed[/h][SUP]15 [/SUP]Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[SUP][f][/SUP] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” [SUP]16 [/SUP]And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, [SUP]17 [/SUP]saying:
“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,[SUP][g][/SUP]
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant[SUP][h][/SUP] was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.
Tie this in with:
[h=3]1 Corinthians 15:52[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
We then have the 7 Bowl judgments against the Beast and his kingdom. So pre-tribbers are correct if the see the Tribulation only as the Bowl judgments the the other stuff as the beginnings of sorrows. Christians will not face the Bowls judgments but will go through the 7 seals and 7 trumpets and they are really bad.
I believe we are about to see the 3rd seal opened, the Black Horse who brings great depression and scarcity on the earth. We will see this under Obama's 2nd term. I believe the Lord will come sometime around 2029 - 2033 which is 2,000 years since his Resurrection.
This is correct, BUT we will know the week (of the Lord's 2nd Coming) from Daniel's wonderful 70 week prophecy, the last week, i.e, the 70th week (Dan 9v27, 11v31, 12v1,6,7, Matt 24v3,15-21, 2Thess 2v1-12, Rev 11v1,2) still has to be fulfilled and so is still yet future...so watch out for the 1st sign (that the Apostles asked the Lord Jesus about) that happens at the beginning of the 7 year period, when 'he' (Antichrist) will make and confirm a covenant with many countries (including Israel), then the 2nd cardinal sign (which happens three and a half years after Antichrist makes the covenant with many countries including Israel), will be when he (Antichrist) breaks the covenant and sets up his image in the Temple in Jerusalem (Rev 13 all), claiming that he is God, the 2nd Coming of the Lord Jesus is three and a half years (1260 days) after the breaking of the covenant by Antichrist, at the last Trumpet...Matt 24v29-31, 1Cor 15v50-55, Rev 11v15-19
Amen, even so Come Lord Jesus!
Yahweh Shalom...
Amen, even so Come Lord Jesus!
Yahweh Shalom...
A
I agree. It could be that this will cause the "falling away"? Who is to fall away? I think someone has to believe at some point in order to fall away. I think we can see people and even churches who are neglecting His word and going their own way. Probably the days and years ahead will tell the sheep from the goats.
that is the explanation of whom is counted as righteous and who is not by God, not me, not you, not anyone else
You see I see the arguers as this
Judgments are only based on what one sees, from their owns thoughts (not from God's). From their own experiences. There is truly only one that knows all. that one would be and is the creator of all.
If one learns to listen to the creator as Jesus Christ revealed to all mankind. (Christ taught us, to do nothing or say nothing w/o Father's instruction first and foremost, beautiful example), we would make the right judgments, with out condemnation. ( coming from the one listening),much less likely
The ones that argued would reveal their true selves, as was done in the day of visitation from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Steer clear from arguments, seek the truth in all things and one shall be free from the world and it's traps.
And Abraham, Noah, Peter, James, John, Paul who was Saul counted as Righteous, why?
Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
And no matter what man will not know the time, the day, nor the year, so be prepared as the five Virgins are as the parable shows. Christ is the way, the truth and the life given to us all that believe through the death, burial and resurrection, the resurrection is where the new life is and begins after one dies to self at the death of Christ with Christ, and then the end of this age when all is full according to God's plan
This is what I get out of the full Gospel from God the Father
You see I see the arguers as this
Judgments are only based on what one sees, from their owns thoughts (not from God's). From their own experiences. There is truly only one that knows all. that one would be and is the creator of all.
If one learns to listen to the creator as Jesus Christ revealed to all mankind. (Christ taught us, to do nothing or say nothing w/o Father's instruction first and foremost, beautiful example), we would make the right judgments, with out condemnation. ( coming from the one listening),much less likely
The ones that argued would reveal their true selves, as was done in the day of visitation from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Steer clear from arguments, seek the truth in all things and one shall be free from the world and it's traps.
And Abraham, Noah, Peter, James, John, Paul who was Saul counted as Righteous, why?
Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
And no matter what man will not know the time, the day, nor the year, so be prepared as the five Virgins are as the parable shows. Christ is the way, the truth and the life given to us all that believe through the death, burial and resurrection, the resurrection is where the new life is and begins after one dies to self at the death of Christ with Christ, and then the end of this age when all is full according to God's plan
This is what I get out of the full Gospel from God the Father
Thanks and all things shall come to pass, so let us heed the parable of the Ten Virgins and be readily careful for no one else to take our oil, nor give our oil only present Christ to get their own oil and have their lamps filled too!!!!!!!!!!
Interesting and rings truth. Taking it under counsel with the Lord, because I watch out you being puffed up, to think I know when not even the enemy knows. For had the enemy known what the death, burial was bringing of life was to happen and is life by the resurrection, the devil would have never planted thoughts of crucify him in the people of that day.
So today the enemy has done a great deception of just focus on the death not the resurrection. Why? Because our new life's are in the resurrected Christ, here and now. The death was needed for only one thing, that was to cleanse you once for all, so that by belief trust God raises you to new life in God's Spirit just as God raised Jesus from the dead
Romans 6:1-11 it is all there for you written to show you what God has done for you if you will accept this gift and be, quit falling by
[h=3]Romans 9:31-33[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
[SUP]33 [/SUP]As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Interesting and rings truth. Taking it under counsel with the Lord, because I watch out you being puffed up, to think I know when not even the enemy knows. For had the enemy known what the death, burial was bringing of life was to happen and is life by the resurrection, the devil would have never planted thoughts of crucify him in the people of that day.
So today the enemy has done a great deception of just focus on the death not the resurrection. Why? Because our new life's are in the resurrected Christ, here and now. The death was needed for only one thing, that was to cleanse you once for all, so that by belief trust God raises you to new life in God's Spirit just as God raised Jesus from the dead
Romans 6:1-11 it is all there for you written to show you what God has done for you if you will accept this gift and be, quit falling by
[h=3]Romans 9:31-33[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
[SUP]33 [/SUP]As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
So maybe we can see what God is saying in these passages then. Is there anymore forgiveness from God to be executed after the cross?
[h=3]Hebrews 5:11-6:8[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And this will we do, if God permit.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
How many of us are asking God to forgive us over and over again, and thus listening to the world about getting forgiven over and over again, when there is no more forgiveness to ever be forgiven for after the cross.
And this forgiving over and over again is found no where in the New Testament after the death of Christ.
Now the only place that is referred to as this asking over and over again is 1 John 1:9. Now this does not say to ask over and over again. Rather it is a letter written to those that do not believe they were born with a sin nature and that do not believe Christ came in the flesh, for those people to repent and believe and then they receive the forgiveness provided for them at the cross and no other place is this provided. then in 1John 2:!
[h=3]1 John 2:1-4[/h]King James Version (KJV)
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
His commandment is to believe in him, that he by himself took away the sin of the world from his Father's sight why?
so we can just go on sinning, as what we are all taught by asking for more forgiveness from God when there is no more to be given by God to anyone other than the cross
How about rather thank God for doing this and then receive the new life he came to give you, right here right now, knowing by God through Christ you are forgiven, and see the new life God gave and quit tripping over the stumblingstone as what the first chosen have done and today we are doing the same and not walking by Faith in God's finished work of the cross for all that believe see and receive. Today is that day for all that are seeking that read this truth from God
[h=3]Hebrews 5:11-6:8[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And this will we do, if God permit.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
How many of us are asking God to forgive us over and over again, and thus listening to the world about getting forgiven over and over again, when there is no more forgiveness to ever be forgiven for after the cross.
And this forgiving over and over again is found no where in the New Testament after the death of Christ.
Now the only place that is referred to as this asking over and over again is 1 John 1:9. Now this does not say to ask over and over again. Rather it is a letter written to those that do not believe they were born with a sin nature and that do not believe Christ came in the flesh, for those people to repent and believe and then they receive the forgiveness provided for them at the cross and no other place is this provided. then in 1John 2:!
[h=3]1 John 2:1-4[/h]King James Version (KJV)
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
His commandment is to believe in him, that he by himself took away the sin of the world from his Father's sight why?
so we can just go on sinning, as what we are all taught by asking for more forgiveness from God when there is no more to be given by God to anyone other than the cross
How about rather thank God for doing this and then receive the new life he came to give you, right here right now, knowing by God through Christ you are forgiven, and see the new life God gave and quit tripping over the stumblingstone as what the first chosen have done and today we are doing the same and not walking by Faith in God's finished work of the cross for all that believe see and receive. Today is that day for all that are seeking that read this truth from God
Matt 24v3 states: '...the disciples came to Him privately, saying,"Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"'
The apostles asked the Lord Jesus for 'signs' so they would KNOW when the end of the age (of Grace) and His second coming would be...hence Paul could write in Heb 10v25, 'Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you SEE the Day approaching.'
The early Church were taught to look for the signs that would precede the Lord's 2nd Coming, so that they would NOT be in darkness as to these monumentous events and be caught unaware, like the evil servant and the foolish virgins. Matt 24v45-25v13, 1Thess 5v1,4.
Pull your head out of the sand and follow the example of the early Church and be knowledgable of these events that the Lord Jesus gives as the signs that will precede His 2nd Coming...
Yahweh Shalom...
The apostles asked the Lord Jesus for 'signs' so they would KNOW when the end of the age (of Grace) and His second coming would be...hence Paul could write in Heb 10v25, 'Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you SEE the Day approaching.'
The early Church were taught to look for the signs that would precede the Lord's 2nd Coming, so that they would NOT be in darkness as to these monumentous events and be caught unaware, like the evil servant and the foolish virgins. Matt 24v45-25v13, 1Thess 5v1,4.
Pull your head out of the sand and follow the example of the early Church and be knowledgable of these events that the Lord Jesus gives as the signs that will precede His 2nd Coming...
Yahweh Shalom...
My statement was one brother to another to be careful, and you took offense no offense was meant. Flesh is so fickle, and so I repent of flesh again today and be alive again in the Spirit for my being aware of what God has already done for me to me since the day I believed, and all others as you as well
Thanks for the reply
Thanks for the reply
All,
Events in Egypt today are very interesting. I will flat out state that I believe the Tribulation will begin within the next 20 years. I am NOT saying when the Lord will come as I don't know the year, let alone the hour or day. But I see so many signs on earth and in the heavens. Let's all prepare our hearts and homes.
Events in Egypt today are very interesting. I will flat out state that I believe the Tribulation will begin within the next 20 years. I am NOT saying when the Lord will come as I don't know the year, let alone the hour or day. But I see so many signs on earth and in the heavens. Let's all prepare our hearts and homes.
so please let us all ask for God to live through us to tell the truth in what god has done by Jesus back at the cross, bringing more sheep home back to God, by God doing this through us. We just being a vessel for God to use us as a water glass that we use to get a drink whenever we want one, Just some food for thought a great big steak
All, I have been praying and studying on this. There is no rapture of the church. Most of the Rapture verses were taken out of context and actually deal with the end of the age/world. 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Thes 4:14-17, Mat 24:35-51, Mat 25. They all tie to 2 Peter 3:10 which is the end of the world.
Jesus comes at the last bowl, the Battle of Armageddon. This is the only time He comes and when he comes he stays. He gathers us to battle (2 Thes 2:1-4) but that isn't the same as giving us glorified bodies and taking us to heaven. This is clear from Rev 19:
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,
followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,
18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
The above passages tie to Luke 17. Jesus was asked about the destruction of the temple, the sign of His coming and the end of the ages. When Jesus finished his long lecture, the disciples asked where He was coming. Jesus gave this reply in verse 37.
37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
The first resurrection happens for the martyrs after the Tribulation. Rev 20:
4 Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power,
The second resurrection happens at the end of the world, at the LAST DAY for believers and sinners alike:
John 6:40, 44, 54. John 11:24, John 12:48
Jesus comes at the last bowl, the Battle of Armageddon. This is the only time He comes and when he comes he stays. He gathers us to battle (2 Thes 2:1-4) but that isn't the same as giving us glorified bodies and taking us to heaven. This is clear from Rev 19:
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,
followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,
18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
The above passages tie to Luke 17. Jesus was asked about the destruction of the temple, the sign of His coming and the end of the ages. When Jesus finished his long lecture, the disciples asked where He was coming. Jesus gave this reply in verse 37.
37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
The first resurrection happens for the martyrs after the Tribulation. Rev 20:
4 Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power,
The second resurrection happens at the end of the world, at the LAST DAY for believers and sinners alike:
John 6:40, 44, 54. John 11:24, John 12:48
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Please watch this and let me know what you think.
the Resurrection and Rapture - YouTube
the Resurrection and Rapture - YouTube
It is what myself and others have been saying on here. Jesus returns at the 7th trump and this is when the resurrection of the dead in Christ happens. He did a good job tying the mystery of 1 Cor 15:51 to the mystery being finished at the 7th trumpet, Rev 10:7. That was pretty cool.
But I see a couple of problems that I am still struggling with. The judgment of the dead who rejected Christ isn't supposed to happen until the Great White Throne. Yet we have John 12:48
48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
Is this the same "Last Day" spoken three times for believers in John 6? If so, then the resurrection is partial and for martyrs only. See Rev 20:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Clearly there is more than 1 resurrection or why call this "the first?"
But I see a couple of problems that I am still struggling with. The judgment of the dead who rejected Christ isn't supposed to happen until the Great White Throne. Yet we have John 12:48
48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
Is this the same "Last Day" spoken three times for believers in John 6? If so, then the resurrection is partial and for martyrs only. See Rev 20:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Clearly there is more than 1 resurrection or why call this "the first?"
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (KJV) [SUP]13 [/SUP]But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
I was under the impression that all the tribulation saints will die for their commitment to Christ. If that's true, who will be this "we who remain" that Paul's talking about?
I was under the impression that all the tribulation saints will die for their commitment to Christ. If that's true, who will be this "we who remain" that Paul's talking about?
I don't know of any passage that tells all Christians will be killed during the Tribulation. Clearly a bunch will. But we know that there will be some Christians around, whether recently saved, or having entered the Trib.
We see Christians still on earth after the 7th Trumpet, in Rev 13:
7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
And again in Rev 14 saints are still on earth:
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."
We also see that 1/3 of the Jewish people will come to the Lord during the Trib period and they will survive from Zech 13:
8 And it shall come to pass in all the land," Says the Lord, "That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one-third shall be left in it:
9 I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, 'This is My people'; And each one will say, 'The Lord is my God.' "
We see Christians still on earth after the 7th Trumpet, in Rev 13:
7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
And again in Rev 14 saints are still on earth:
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."
We also see that 1/3 of the Jewish people will come to the Lord during the Trib period and they will survive from Zech 13:
8 And it shall come to pass in all the land," Says the Lord, "That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one-third shall be left in it:
9 I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, 'This is My people'; And each one will say, 'The Lord is my God.' "