Well evil still exist because men have free will. God is all about love and love can only exist if it is freely given. That is why free will exist. How about this question for you, "If God doesn't exist how do we define what is good or evil?". If there is no God then "good and evil" is just an opinion formed in our own mind, which is just a set of chemical reactions that fire off different in each mind. That all being the case what would make one persons "chemical reactions" better than any others? What would make the chemical reaction that says "kill him" subjectively better than the one that says "love him", and what sets the overall standard?
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Hey Davy, I'd recommend that instead of giving any collectivist ideas any credit... be an indvidualist. Non-christians can think in "group-think" or collectivist mindset which never seem to make sense when talking about things objectively. Some may say "Christians" do this and that.. but that doesn't change what the bible says objectively. That doesn't change the onotological argument for G-d's existence... that doesn't change anything but what some Christians may or may not do. I think some people along these lines are just ad homenin, character assassination... that are too often just trying to demonize Christians.
PM anytime, if you have any thoughts about that.
PM anytime, if you have any thoughts about that.
Where does evil come from?
Not from G-d, evil is the absence of G-d. G-d is the source of love, pure, infinite, etc. When G-d is not in that space than that space (or person) becomes... impure, finite, love-less.. less than what is needed to be called good.
Why does good have to have an opposite?
I'd think because that's the nature of the situation. Good is perfection... less than perfection is evil. Functionally, the opposite of good is there because of the situation. To go off into a slightly different direction... "Why is there a difference between good and evil?" Because there's a moral standard. Why does good have to have an opposite because the moral standard make it so there's a differentiation between good and evil.
God is all good. Did He WANT us to experience evil?
Maybe, yes, he did so that can see the difference... maybe so that the experience/struggle between good and evil would move us towards him... I can only guess. No, he didn't because that was never his purpose... however, because we humans have chosen evil/sinned then we have infected ourselves and the world for evil to be around.
Did He create it for this express purpose?
I'm not sure what you mean by this question.
Why did He give us choice?
Morality requires intentionality... free will gives us intentionality. So, if G-d wanted human beings that truly were capable of goodness than free will was necessary so that goodness would be possible.
You're saying it's our CHOICE that creates evil?
Choice doesn't "create" evil, choice... bad choices specifically can be the a way evil could happen though.
Or that it exists so that we may have choice?
I don't think its necessary for evil to "exist" first in order to have choice. That's like saying... Here's a smartphone... and here's an old cell phone... the old cell phone has to exist so your capable of choice. Actually, I think you could very well have freewill without the old cell phone. You could have an abstract understanding that the smartphone is good and the old cell phone is evil. Freewill or having a choice isn't dependent on "evil" existing. However, it may be dependent on G-d giving us the abstract understanding between right and wrong.
What kind of a God would that be?
A G-d that truly wants goodness to be possible in our lives. Without freewill... there's in intentionality... without intentionality... there's no goodness... no love, no kindness, no charity, no anything right.
Do you have a pet? Do you throw him out into the rain so he could have a choice to come back into your warm home?
Nope, but the pet does have a choice to go out into the rain. The pet could possibly dig a hole under the fence (my dogs have done this -_-) and run away... be on your own... possibly starve or die due to the dangers of being a domesticated pet in a human world... reminds me of sin.
Remember... G-d didn't throw us in the rain... he threw us in a beautiful paradise garden where there was no need for labor and mankind walked with G-d. We sadly chose to dig a hole in the ground to get past a "loving" fence and now we face a world... with sin where we must ask G-d for forgiveness and go back home.
Not from G-d, evil is the absence of G-d. G-d is the source of love, pure, infinite, etc. When G-d is not in that space than that space (or person) becomes... impure, finite, love-less.. less than what is needed to be called good.
Why does good have to have an opposite?
I'd think because that's the nature of the situation. Good is perfection... less than perfection is evil. Functionally, the opposite of good is there because of the situation. To go off into a slightly different direction... "Why is there a difference between good and evil?" Because there's a moral standard. Why does good have to have an opposite because the moral standard make it so there's a differentiation between good and evil.
God is all good. Did He WANT us to experience evil?
Maybe, yes, he did so that can see the difference... maybe so that the experience/struggle between good and evil would move us towards him... I can only guess. No, he didn't because that was never his purpose... however, because we humans have chosen evil/sinned then we have infected ourselves and the world for evil to be around.
Did He create it for this express purpose?
I'm not sure what you mean by this question.
Why did He give us choice?
Morality requires intentionality... free will gives us intentionality. So, if G-d wanted human beings that truly were capable of goodness than free will was necessary so that goodness would be possible.
You're saying it's our CHOICE that creates evil?
Choice doesn't "create" evil, choice... bad choices specifically can be the a way evil could happen though.
Or that it exists so that we may have choice?
I don't think its necessary for evil to "exist" first in order to have choice. That's like saying... Here's a smartphone... and here's an old cell phone... the old cell phone has to exist so your capable of choice. Actually, I think you could very well have freewill without the old cell phone. You could have an abstract understanding that the smartphone is good and the old cell phone is evil. Freewill or having a choice isn't dependent on "evil" existing. However, it may be dependent on G-d giving us the abstract understanding between right and wrong.
What kind of a God would that be?
A G-d that truly wants goodness to be possible in our lives. Without freewill... there's in intentionality... without intentionality... there's no goodness... no love, no kindness, no charity, no anything right.
Do you have a pet? Do you throw him out into the rain so he could have a choice to come back into your warm home?
Nope, but the pet does have a choice to go out into the rain. The pet could possibly dig a hole under the fence (my dogs have done this -_-) and run away... be on your own... possibly starve or die due to the dangers of being a domesticated pet in a human world... reminds me of sin.
Remember... G-d didn't throw us in the rain... he threw us in a beautiful paradise garden where there was no need for labor and mankind walked with G-d. We sadly chose to dig a hole in the ground to get past a "loving" fence and now we face a world... with sin where we must ask G-d for forgiveness and go back home.
Where does evil come from?
Not from G-d, evil is the absence of G-d. G-d is the source of love, pure, infinite, etc. When G-d is not in that space than that space (or person) becomes... impure, finite, love-less.. less than what is needed to be called good.
Why does good have to have an opposite?
I'd think because that's the nature of the situation. Good is perfection... less than perfection is evil. Functionally, the opposite of good is there because of the situation. To go off into a slightly different direction... "Why is there a difference between good and evil?" Because there's a moral standard. Why does good have to have an opposite because the moral standard make it so there's a differentiation between good and evil.
God is all good. Did He WANT us to experience evil?
Maybe, yes, he did so that can see the difference... maybe so that the experience/struggle between good and evil would move us towards him... I can only guess. No, he didn't because that was never his purpose... however, because we humans have chosen evil/sinned then we have infected ourselves and the world for evil to be around.
Did He create it for this express purpose?
I'm not sure what you mean by this question.
Why did He give us choice?
Morality requires intentionality... free will gives us intentionality. So, if G-d wanted human beings that truly were capable of goodness than free will was necessary so that goodness would be possible.
You're saying it's our CHOICE that creates evil?
Choice doesn't "create" evil, choice... bad choices specifically can be the a way evil could happen though.
Or that it exists so that we may have choice?
I don't think its necessary for evil to "exist" first in order to have choice. That's like saying... Here's a smartphone... and here's an old cell phone... the old cell phone has to exist so your capable of choice. Actually, I think you could very well have freewill without the old cell phone. You could have an abstract understanding that the smartphone is good and the old cell phone is evil. Freewill or having a choice isn't dependent on "evil" existing. However, it may be dependent on G-d giving us the abstract understanding between right and wrong.
What kind of a God would that be?
A G-d that truly wants goodness to be possible in our lives. Without freewill... there's in intentionality... without intentionality... there's no goodness... no love, no kindness, no charity, no anything right.
Do you have a pet? Do you throw him out into the rain so he could have a choice to come back into your warm home?
Nope, but the pet does have a choice to go out into the rain. The pet could possibly dig a hole under the fence (my dogs have done this -_-) and run away... be on your own... possibly starve or die due to the dangers of being a domesticated pet in a human world... reminds me of sin.
Remember... G-d didn't throw us in the rain... he threw us in a beautiful paradise garden where there was no need for labor and mankind walked with G-d. We sadly chose to dig a hole in the ground to get past a "loving" fence and now we face a world... with sin where we must ask G-d for forgiveness and go back home.
Not from G-d, evil is the absence of G-d. G-d is the source of love, pure, infinite, etc. When G-d is not in that space than that space (or person) becomes... impure, finite, love-less.. less than what is needed to be called good.
Why does good have to have an opposite?
I'd think because that's the nature of the situation. Good is perfection... less than perfection is evil. Functionally, the opposite of good is there because of the situation. To go off into a slightly different direction... "Why is there a difference between good and evil?" Because there's a moral standard. Why does good have to have an opposite because the moral standard make it so there's a differentiation between good and evil.
God is all good. Did He WANT us to experience evil?
Maybe, yes, he did so that can see the difference... maybe so that the experience/struggle between good and evil would move us towards him... I can only guess. No, he didn't because that was never his purpose... however, because we humans have chosen evil/sinned then we have infected ourselves and the world for evil to be around.
Did He create it for this express purpose?
I'm not sure what you mean by this question.
Why did He give us choice?
Morality requires intentionality... free will gives us intentionality. So, if G-d wanted human beings that truly were capable of goodness than free will was necessary so that goodness would be possible.
You're saying it's our CHOICE that creates evil?
Choice doesn't "create" evil, choice... bad choices specifically can be the a way evil could happen though.
Or that it exists so that we may have choice?
I don't think its necessary for evil to "exist" first in order to have choice. That's like saying... Here's a smartphone... and here's an old cell phone... the old cell phone has to exist so your capable of choice. Actually, I think you could very well have freewill without the old cell phone. You could have an abstract understanding that the smartphone is good and the old cell phone is evil. Freewill or having a choice isn't dependent on "evil" existing. However, it may be dependent on G-d giving us the abstract understanding between right and wrong.
What kind of a God would that be?
A G-d that truly wants goodness to be possible in our lives. Without freewill... there's in intentionality... without intentionality... there's no goodness... no love, no kindness, no charity, no anything right.
Do you have a pet? Do you throw him out into the rain so he could have a choice to come back into your warm home?
Nope, but the pet does have a choice to go out into the rain. The pet could possibly dig a hole under the fence (my dogs have done this -_-) and run away... be on your own... possibly starve or die due to the dangers of being a domesticated pet in a human world... reminds me of sin.
Remember... G-d didn't throw us in the rain... he threw us in a beautiful paradise garden where there was no need for labor and mankind walked with G-d. We sadly chose to dig a hole in the ground to get past a "loving" fence and now we face a world... with sin where we must ask G-d for forgiveness and go back home.
The above is well thought out and put together.
Only problem is: You didn't tell me where evil comes from.
That's the whole point. This is the biggest problem in Christianity.
I keep saying there's no answer, but we keep trying. It's okay, I guess.
You must be Jewish. I read a book called Why Do Bad Things Happen To Good People.
It was written by a prominent Rabbi. He didn't have the answer either.
But let's go through a few points.
You said:
I don't think its necessary for evil to "exist" first in order to have choice. That's like saying... Here's a smartphone... and here's an old cell phone... the old cell phone has to exist so your capable of choice. Actually, I think you could very well have freewill without the old cell phone. You could have an abstract understanding that the smartphone is good and the old cell phone is evil. Freewill or having a choice isn't dependent on "evil" existing. However, it may be dependent on G-d giving us the abstract understanding between right and wrong.
In order for choice to exist, evil must also exist and FIRST, before we're given the choice.
When the fruit was offered in the Garden, evil already existed - otherwise there would have been no choice for Eve to make - instead she DID have a choice. How could I have free will without the old cell phone? That's like God saying: Here take this smartphone. Well, where's my free will in that? There is NO abstract thought between right and wrong if wrong does not exist. You cannot think of something that does not exist. (please don't bring up aliens - they're a variation of us).
Also, evil cannot be the absence of God. When is God ever absent? Does He not hold up the earth and cause everything to function? Does not our very heartbeat depend on Him? If God ever went to sleep, everything would just end. He upholds all.
Why does good have to have an opposit? IOW, Why couldn't God just make everything perfect for us? WHY does there have to be evil? I need to get a stomach ache to understand that I feel well other times? Why would I inflict pain in my pet so he could appreciate feeling well? This concept won't work either. How does the less than perfection even happen. How does a perfect being create something that is not perfect. We, as humans, build imperfection into everything because we are imperfect - so if God is perfect, shouldn't everything He created be perfect? alas, also the moral standard exists precisely because there is evil - it does not explain it.
You say God might have created evil so we could see the difference. This is the same as what I just replied to above.
IF I could have chosen, I would have preferred to let my children grow up in peace and health and happiness without subjecting them to the opposite just so they could appreciate the peace and health and happiness.
I agree with this:
Why did He give us choice?
Morality requires intentionality... free will gives us intentionality. So, if G-d wanted human beings that truly were capable of goodness than free will was necessary so that goodness would be possible.
This is true. In my scenario above, regarding my children, if there were no choice there would be no moral intentinality.
This would be a "consequence" of protecting them. There would be only good, so moral intentionality would be removed.
Then:
You're saying it's our CHOICE that creates evil?
Choice doesn't "create" evil, choice... bad choices specifically can be the a way evil could happen though.
Someone had said that it's our choices that create evil. I agree with you. Our choices do not create evil. The evil already exists and we choose to obey it. Anyway, how would our choice creating evil explain away a hurricane? Isn't that an evil?
So, yes. I agree with you here too. Our choice could be FOR evil, but it won't create it.
Then:
What kind of a God would that be?
A G-d that truly wants goodness to be possible in our lives. Without freewill... there's in intentionality... without intentionality... there's no goodness... no love, no kindness, no charity, no anything right.
Again, I agree. Without free will there can be no love. Maybe God allows evil so that we can CHOOSE to love Him. And that would be perfect love. But then where does God's all-goodness come in? Would a good God allow us to suffer just so He could be sure we really love Him?
The pet in the rain. If you love your pet, you won't even open the door!
I agree with your last paragraph:
Remember... G-d didn't throw us in the rain... he threw us in a beautiful paradise garden where there was no need for labor and mankind walked with G-d. We sadly chose to dig a hole in the ground to get past a "loving" fence and now we face a world... with sin where we must ask G-d for forgiveness and go back home.
Praise God - wherever evil comes from, and for whatever reason it's here, God provided for us from the very beginning of the foundation of the world to have the opportunity to be with Him forever, if we so choose.
Ephesians 2:2
Ephesians 6:10-12
Romans 3:23
Romans 5:8
2 Timothy 1:9
Deuteronomy 30:15 and 30:19
Let us choose life.
Fran
I wish I was Jewish. I'm not Jewish.
Anyways, thanks for acknowledging my post.
So, I'm a bit confused because at first in your response you say evil must "exist" to have choice. So, actually you can have choice if G-d offered you only the smartphone. You can choose to reject the phone. Evil is not necessary for things outside of ourselves. Beings like angels and humans though, might be necessary. Remember that angels before mankind decided to rebel against G-d and there was no "choice" given to them, by that I mean there was no tree of life or tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, the angels did exist. Angels and humans have something in common with evil by just existing. That's that evil is less than good. Angels and humans are less than G-d. So, in a universe with G-d alone existing... evil cannot possibly exist because only G-d exists and he is only good. However, as soon as G-d created angels and humans, evil can possibly exist in that angels and humans are less than G-d and can be worshiped by other angels and humans. Lucifer worshiped himself and that's why he became evil. But, I don't think that answers all the questions because we weren't just talk about physical things like a smartphone but if evil exists.. if the abstract idea of evil exists. That being said... angels and humans are the creators of evil
You could ask... Where did the evil idea of worshiping a lesser being than G-d come from? I'd think ourselves. When angels or humans as creations decided that we didn't care for G-d for pride or whatever reason. Evil is your prideful thoughts thinking you know better than G-d. Evil is the way that you've created without the creator. For example, it's like a Kung fu master that understands and has literally unlimited potential to beat any fighter ever. This Kung fu master takes in students. The Kung fu master teaches them however some students decide they know enough from this unlimited knowing Kung fu master. The point where the students leave the Kung fu master they have left the path and now whatever those students know is "evil" and furthermore these students can make their own Kung fu schools and they would be variants of the Kung fu masters teaching but NOT the original teachings.
So far... two things
1) Something lesser than G-d is needed, such as a creation... an angel or human and they have to be beings who have free will. The evil existing first might be answered by this here... in that the common thing between evil, and humans and angels is that all these are lesser than G-d. At the very least the "spaces" for the existence of evil are possible and the idols of evil are ready to be worshiped. Not to mention.... obviously animals and other creations.
2) Evil might be created by humans or angels who decided to make their own way.
I'll leave it at that for now... Those are my thoughts for now. There were more questions but I g2g
Anyways, thanks for acknowledging my post.
So, I'm a bit confused because at first in your response you say evil must "exist" to have choice. So, actually you can have choice if G-d offered you only the smartphone. You can choose to reject the phone. Evil is not necessary for things outside of ourselves. Beings like angels and humans though, might be necessary. Remember that angels before mankind decided to rebel against G-d and there was no "choice" given to them, by that I mean there was no tree of life or tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, the angels did exist. Angels and humans have something in common with evil by just existing. That's that evil is less than good. Angels and humans are less than G-d. So, in a universe with G-d alone existing... evil cannot possibly exist because only G-d exists and he is only good. However, as soon as G-d created angels and humans, evil can possibly exist in that angels and humans are less than G-d and can be worshiped by other angels and humans. Lucifer worshiped himself and that's why he became evil. But, I don't think that answers all the questions because we weren't just talk about physical things like a smartphone but if evil exists.. if the abstract idea of evil exists. That being said... angels and humans are the creators of evil
You could ask... Where did the evil idea of worshiping a lesser being than G-d come from? I'd think ourselves. When angels or humans as creations decided that we didn't care for G-d for pride or whatever reason. Evil is your prideful thoughts thinking you know better than G-d. Evil is the way that you've created without the creator. For example, it's like a Kung fu master that understands and has literally unlimited potential to beat any fighter ever. This Kung fu master takes in students. The Kung fu master teaches them however some students decide they know enough from this unlimited knowing Kung fu master. The point where the students leave the Kung fu master they have left the path and now whatever those students know is "evil" and furthermore these students can make their own Kung fu schools and they would be variants of the Kung fu masters teaching but NOT the original teachings.
So far... two things
1) Something lesser than G-d is needed, such as a creation... an angel or human and they have to be beings who have free will. The evil existing first might be answered by this here... in that the common thing between evil, and humans and angels is that all these are lesser than G-d. At the very least the "spaces" for the existence of evil are possible and the idols of evil are ready to be worshiped. Not to mention.... obviously animals and other creations.
2) Evil might be created by humans or angels who decided to make their own way.
I'll leave it at that for now... Those are my thoughts for now. There were more questions but I g2g
M
@Davy11011 hi! So I just wanted you to consider that when Adam and Eve sinned against God they were actually allowing sin to enter this world which was prior to that clean. God isn't some mighty dictator, he is loving and gives us freedom to choose him or that which is not him (inevitably the Devil), this is called the Grace period in which God shows us his forgiving and merciful aspects mostly, and through Jesus so how can he 'enforce' us all to be good when there are many of us who would choose to take a bite of the apple? God is perfect, he is without sin, and he would never condone it but we on the other hand can be vessels to either masters, the One True God or the god of this world, Satan. And when the day of Judgement comes, Satan will be imprisoned for a thousand years according to the book of Revelations. And one other thing, if you're ever looking for a good debate I would suggest you to take it up with the Bible, it is so full of answers to all your questions you will be amazed. And it's all very sensible, not some fanatical agenda- if you give it a chance that is and read it and try to understand without any bias.
And God said unto Moses, "I AM that I AM": and He said, "Thus shalt thou say unto the Children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." (Exodus 3:14).
View attachment signs from god.bmp
View attachment signs from god.bmp
I also wanted to add that could be everywhere but maybe for the time being he chooses not to be because of sin. If you remember that the holy spirit enters mankind... G-d would have to not be in mankind first. So, G-d doesn't have to be everywhere. I'll leave it at that though... I'd eventually want to get down to the bottom of it too.
I have a difficult time understanding WHY atheists want to debate about a God they don't even believe in.
Could it be because Atheism is a RELIGION and they'd like US to be over on their side and believe they could convince Christians to stop believing?
This is known as the practice of apostatizing.
Why do they so hate Christianity?
Maybe because they want to be free to do whatever they want to do and God, who
has absolute moral values, is getting in their way?
Any other reason I'm not getting?
Fran
Could it be because Atheism is a RELIGION and they'd like US to be over on their side and believe they could convince Christians to stop believing?
This is known as the practice of apostatizing.
Why do they so hate Christianity?
Maybe because they want to be free to do whatever they want to do and God, who
has absolute moral values, is getting in their way?
Any other reason I'm not getting?
Fran
So is free will. God will never make you do anything, He lets you choose right from wrong in your own life, but, He will whisper the right answer to you and you get to pick what you want. He is not nor will He ever be a puppet master for us.
Also, if you don't believe in something, don't you have to believe it's there to not believe in it?
Just a thought for you Davy, have a great week!
Also, if you don't believe in something, don't you have to believe it's there to not believe in it?
Just a thought for you Davy, have a great week!
not "wrong" lol just unusual.
but not unheard of either it looks like there have been a couple of these debates going on over here lately.
if anyone wants to have discussion it typically gets more responses in other parts of the forum, that's all
i'm not in charge of anything -- just strikes me as a little weird. wanted to prompt OP to maybe step out of the 'introduction' section -- though, you know, if this same thread was in the BDF it would be 35 pages long and much more heated. so maybe not such a bad thing haha