Hello all from Chestertonrules

I was once very anti Catholic. I understand why people resist the Church. Most of the reasons are based on misunderstanding or bad information, unfortunately. Jesus only started on Church.

Why do you think there are thousands of denominations teaching multiple contradictory doctrines outside of the Catholic Church?

I am of the belief that the Holy Spirit resides within us. I have been led to understand that that is why the Gospel of Tomas was omitted from the compilation of the New Testiment as it does not promote the church. I don't know this for sure, but it seems to make justifiable sense. As a person living full time in Greece and still learning the language after years, you must be careful about translation of words. Many words represent old thinking ideas that don't necessarily mean what they translate to today. I say this because we use the word Church instead of assembly, a more accurate portrayal of the original text. When Christ said to Peter that he would be the rock he would build his Church upon, I question what the original word and meaning was, Gathering? structure? En-mass through Faith? I am not sure, there are so many opinions and books and everyone seems to have an answer but after living here in Greece and speaking Greek I can tell you the words are much deeper with more meanings than you think. Biker Dave

The gospel of Thomas was written by a gnostic long after Thomas was dead.

Church just means assembly. The Church is the body of Christ.

I don't understand why or how people are getting this information that the Eastern Churches have no relationship with the Catholic Churches. An Eastern Orthodox Priest has great respect for the Catholic Priest in fact if you ask anyone here in Greece what the Orthodox Church preaches they will say Catholisism. I have never in 4 years found an atheist here in Greece, not one. They all believe in Jesus Christ, and they all live in Faith. It their Church is not legitimate then why do they have this abounding love and Faith? If you go to Patras on the Peleponesos in the district of Achaia you can go to the Church of St Andreas, the First called Aphostle. His scull is there, so is the cross he was Martred on. You can see it first hand. He brought these people to Christ out of paganism. Surely the Church he formed and the people who form the Orthodoxy Church of Patras cannot be considered non Catholic conforming. As an open minded Christian I suggest we stop looking at the table and focus on the gift on the table, it will do us all some good, blessings to you, Biker Dave

The Gospel of Thomas was written before the compilation of the Bible. I know of two reasons why it was not allowed. The first reason was that it Preached the Holy Spirit is within us. The second reason was that it was decided that any writings after the first century would be omitted. Biker Dave

I agree that we share almost all our beliefs in common and that the differences are relatively very small.

The Catholic Church accepts and honors the apostolic succession and authority of the Orthodox Churches.

However, I believe that Christian unity should be our goal and that we should pursue the truth. Christian debate in love is a good thing in my opinion.

The bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is within us. That is not the problem with the Gospel of Thomas.

Jesus started a Church and he gave the Church his authority. Why do you think it is appropriate to ignore the opinion of the early Church on something as important as scripture?

I agree with you and I appreciate your knowledge and opinions. We are over here as Witnesses to the power and love of God, it's very humbling at times thinking we know a good deal and then realizing that answers to questions just lead to many more questions. There is alot here, the big suprise for us is while we are riding through Turkey, the kindnesses afforded to us from the Islam people. We were expecting something different and once again we were wrong! Lol

One does not leave the church started by Jesus by leaving the Catholic Church. The Catholic church is the institution started by the church of Rome when it combined with the Roman empire. That organization is only one small piece of the church started (actually added to, you still have not accounted for the Acts 7 verse) by Jesus. The church is not A people of Christ, it is THE people of Christ, all of them.

So we have something positive to discuss, please define how the gates of hell prevail against some church.

Ekklesia means sunagoge? Why does the Bible use two different words?

That is very interesting and encouraging. What type of work are you doing there?

This is rehashed pseudo-history.

Jesus started a single Church. He appointed leaders for his Church. We know who these leaders are from scripture. We also know who these leaders chose as successors.

Why do you suppose that you have the right to ignore the successors of the apostles?


The gates of Hell would have prevailed against a Church if it teaches false doctrines as the truth of Jesus.

Jesus is truth.

HAve you ever really studied the matter of apostolic succession? Do you know what the Liber Pontificales is? It is a book written by the Catholic church, with the "first few successors" part finished in about 600AD. Writing your own history that way is what everyone else in the world calls pseudohistory. But let's suppose it's correct. The argument rests on two, and only two, historical facts. First Peter appointed Linus as the next in charge. Then a French bishop, in a fight with a rival bishop in the 300's, proposed that he is correct because his teachings match those in Rome. That's it. Even if we assume the facts are correct, that's the whole argument. That's what gives the church of Rome the right to be in charge after they get Constantine saved.

Okay, Peter appointed Linus. Sure, he did, as bishop of Rome. Peter was the guy who needed a special revelation even to appraoch a gentile living in Israel with the gospel (Acts 10). Why would he appoint a person who grew up in the islands off Italy to be in charge of the Jerusalem Church? This is simply an altered fact.

So one bishop wrote one letter saying he thinks he is right because he agrees with the teachings at Rome. What did the other guy say? Maybe he agrees with Alexandria, or Constantinople. We'll never know, unless a Catholic author saved it, because the CathCh had time to tear everything up that they did not like.

Now, apostles. The CathCh says there are 13. The original 12, minus Judas, plus Matthias, plus Paul, right? Scripture teaches that Barnabas is a levite (Acts 4:36). By acts 14:14 is an apostle. Again, it is you with the peudohistory.

Or what of the Didache, quoted by the Cath Ch fathers from the first half, lost for 1000 years, recovered in a monastery restoration in the mid 1800's and proclaimed authentic by every Catholic Encyclopedia edition from then until 1919? The 1919 catholic Encyclopedia is the first to say it is false. I guess they must have read it, because it teaches clearly that there were hundreds of apostles and can be many now. (Not to mention is says you guys are doing the Eucharist wrong.)

That is an interesting take you have on the definition of the gates of hell prevailing. At any given time, 36,000 denominations are disagreeing one with another on something. But only since 1500 or so. Before that the inquisition was too strong to let anybody disagree and stay alive like that.

Yes Jesus is truth. NOt the story the Cath Ch tells in His place.

The successors of the Church are recorded many places. You don't seem well informed with regard to Christian history.

Have you read the epistle of Clement(ordained by Peter) to the Corinthians? It was written in about 90 Ad and it describes apostolic succession. Have you read the epistles of Ignatius of Antioch(writteng about 105 AD), a disciple of John? He clearly describes the authority of the bishop and the necessity to remain unified in the faith. How about the list of the popes written by Irenaeus in 180 AD?

Apparently there is a lot out there that you are unaware of.

You can read them all here, and much more, if you like. This is a list of the writings of the early Christians:

CHURCH FATHERS: Home

Yes, the Catholic Church, it is my understanding, became quite corrupt at one point. That ushered in new denominations.

I've read large portions of Ignatius and Iranaeus, including the part to which you refer, never the whole. I have studied Clement several times. I collected all the Church Fathers many years ago.

You are reading from a different context. It is one thing to say that "I (Clement, the third pope) am appointed by someone appointed by the 12 apostles (ch. 44)". It is another thing to believe there are no more apostles. Ch. 54 of Clement describes where the hundreds of apostles come from.

Iranaeus is too long for me to search, but if you have special quotes that prove your point, please give me the references.

How detailed must my quotes become before I seem informed? Do you know what the Didache is or the Liber Pontificales? You are quoting the books assembled by the Catholic hierarchy, I am quoting legitimate history.

Jesus started a single Church. There have always been corrupt individuals in the Church, but the Church always teaches the truth as guided by the Holy Spirit.

If two churches teach contradictory doctrines then one or both is teaching falsehoods. Protestantism is full of falsehoods because it is full of contradictory teachings.

You seem to want to make the case that apostolic succession was a later addition to the Church. That's not true.

The apostles appointed successors and we know who these people are. We know what they believed and how they worshiped.

Your assumptions are inconsistent with the historical record.

We are riding our Harley chopper around the Eastern Block of Europe as well as western Asia. Shortly we hope to see the Seven Churches (you know the ones) of Asia as well as visiting the Cappadoccia area to see where many of the first Christians were holed up during the era of extreme persecution. We are riding with full biker leathers wearing large Cross patches and are covered with scripture, saying, and smaller crosses. We proclaim Salvation through Faith in Christ Jesus and people seem to come to us first to see the bike and then the Crosses. As we are both Witnesses to the Power of God we tell what happened to us, people listen and are hopefully strengthened. As the people over here live in Faith we serve the purpose of reminding them of the love and Salvation. We have had nothing but positive results and although we have little to no money, we live in Faith and we have always been provided for even when we thought we were going to be totally destitute. Our big challenge we thought were the Islamists but so far we have been treated with the utmost kindness. They too believe in our God, only problem is they believe that Jesus was a Prophet and not the Son of God. Of coarse we try to change that through Old Testament proofs in Scripture. Their Koran like the Torah limits them to the Law, we try to tell them and show them that it was Faith in the beginning and became Law with Moses, Judges appointed, then Kings and people were under the Law. But the Christ changed all that and at Calvary we who believed returned back to Faith. We do our best with what we can in knowledge and rely on Faith. There are many things to see and do, things are getting a little crazy, we are very close to Izmir, Turkey today. Izmir is where the big US airbase will be located in this Syria conflict. Tensions are high but we keep riding until we cannot. We lay over in the cold season on Lesvos, Greece where we have a small village house made of rocks. It's very old and the tie up rings for the navy ships that assaulted Troy are visible to see. Who would have thought the Trojan Horse was not a fairy tale! Anyway, that's what we do, we are nothing special, just a couple who are 55 and 58 riding with our Chihuahua trying to remind people over here that God is real he is the loving father and so is the Christ and the Holy Spirit and John 3:16 Blessings to you, search out the lost sheep! Biker Dave, Donna and Tokey

Wow! That takes some courage! God bless you!! I'll pray for you.