Hello all from Chestertonrules

You post half truths and lies about the Church. Is that what you mean by an education? You have just regurgitated anti Catholic propaganda.


1) I don't believe you. In fact, I think you are making this up.
2) I see a trend developing. This is starting to make sense! .In reality, though, almost all priest have a minimum of a masters degree and most are PhDs.
3) Too funny.
5) If this guy was a pervert that is not a representation of the Church. He was violating church teaching and is not relevant to the teaching or validity of the Church.
6)Ditto

So you knew a pervert heretic. That doesn't give you the right to regurgitate anti Catholic lies and bigotry.

Jesus is the truth. You should pursue the truth, not dwell on the sins of the fallen and disgraced.

I disagree with you because Philippians 2 vs 9. We have being given a one name to honour that is JESUS. Anyone thing, doctrine, law, rules apart from that is not acceptable unto the Lord.

1. I am not certain about the black market babies. I assure you I was at the organ several times for the other part.
2. This was an established ministry to the inner city that had launched many outreaches at all levels. The new bishop came in and ordered it shut down because the nuns running many of the successful social work projects had degrees in other things.
3. But I assure you, very real.
5-6. I agree with you. But teaching is to be done by example first.
I do not know any anti-Catholic propaganda. I know what I studied on my own. I suppose I should add the 7 years of psychological abuse I and pretty much everyone else suffered from the nuns in the name of God in Catholic School. In 35 years of Catholicism, I have seen from the official church only arrogance, abuse, sin, and denial.

You keep saying these are half truths, yet you have not undertaken to find an answer to any of them. Again, I am only opposed to your statement that the Catholic Church is the only true church and thus everyone else is wrong. Normally I defend Catholics, because any of them can still meet Jesus, and until the church threw out the Charismatics in the late 70's, millions did. But I cannot defend the appearance of pride in the name of an institution that you seem to espouse, when it is Jesus that should matter.

Your position: The Catholic church is right and everyone else is wrong.
My position: Everyone that follows Jesus is right, and all churches, being full of men, are wrong sometimes.

Even a half truth proves you wrong. As long as there is rampant sexual abuse anywhere, that is wrong. As long as there are people killed over disagreements in theology, that is wrong. You are claiming you are totally right. I am leaving the Scriptural "adjustments" made in the name of selected early writers now called the "Fathers of the Church" unspoken, because there are dozens of threads about the here already. I have pointed out the historical manipulations necessary to maintain the facade, and the fruit of the Catholic Church. A church that is right in the midst of everyone else being wrong, would not have such stories that can be told of them, half-truth or whole-truth.

The entire new church movement (non-denoms following the service order of praise and worship, testimonies, message and body ministry) originated in 1981 and most was started by leaders from the Renewal who were thrown out. Compare the articles in the National Catholic reporter from 1972-6 about how prayer meetings were run. And then check how Pentecostal churches did their worship in 1960. You'll see what I'm talking about. You were just a teenager, but I was in the ministry at the time. in 1976, the American Bishops Theology committee published to the effect that if the renewal was to continue, there were going to have to be massive improvements in how the church expressed love among its people. From 1975, to 1983, there was a massive shifting of charismatic priests to the smallest parishes, as the non-charismtic laity expressed anger that the charismatics were doing all the ministry in the church. This was much of the mechanism that threw it out. You would not recognize the renewal of 1974 by going to what you know as the renewal of today. The miracle that stopped the rain at Notre Dame (1974 I think) is still in the papers. The last Char. prayer meeting I was at said a rosary and wistfully pointed to angels dancing on the ceiling.

Is pride in Jesus a good thing, or not? To the extent that it is, you must first locate His body. The minute you say "everyone else is wrong", you show you are not part of the Body of Christ.

The fact that individuals are sinners doesn't mean anything the Church teaches is wrong.

Jesus promised the leaders of the Church, ie. the apostles, that he would be with them until the end of the world and that the Holy Spirit would lead them in ALL truth.(not some truth and some falsehoods)

Do you think the Church Jesus started, that he remains with, that is led by the Holy Spirit, that the gates of Hell will not prevail against, teaches any false doctrines?

If so, then you are calling Jesus a liar.

Pope Benedict XVI Affirms
the Charismatic Renewal

Pontiff Notes Hopes for Charismatic Renewal
Vatican City, May 4, 2009

The Pope said this in a telgram signed by his secretary of state, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, and sent to the Italian chapter of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, who were gathered in their 32nd national assembly in Rimini, Italy.
Address to the Catholic Fraternity of Charismatic Covenant
Communities and Fellowships Hall of Blessings
Friday, 31 October, 2008

Pope John Paul II Affirms
the Charismatic Renewal

Commissions Her to Renew the Church

Audience with Cardinal Suenens and the Council Members of the International Charismatic Renewal Office.

This quote is from the special hour and a half audience with the Pope in Vatican City on December 11, 1979:

I have already proved the catholic church is not the church Jesus started. It is your allegation that He remains with the church. The Bible, and experience, say He lives in the church, which is us. The HOly Sprit leads all believers, Catholic or not. The discrepancies in the doctrine is proof of how well they follow.

I read JP2's affirmation with as much joy as anyone. It's too bad no one listened at the rank and file level, so that later Benedict has to speak in only past tense, and use the term "should". The verbiage admits what I have been saying. It's just a memory now, and they wish they had it back. Besides, talk is cheap.

Oh, yes, since you know all the current stuff, is it still canon law that the rule promulgated in I think 979 or so(I'm guessing as to year) is still in effect? You know, the one that says "all tongues are to be regarded as of the devil"? I know it was still in effect in 1985, and each Pope's refusal to change it sent a very forked-tongued message to the charismatic world.

1.You have proven no such thing. You merely proved that the Catholic Church includes sinners. ALL MEN are sinners.

2. The Catholic church teaches truth. There are no discrepancies in Catholic teaching.

3. What did Jesus say to do if you have a dispute with a brother?
Matt 18
17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

4.Tell me, who would someone who believes like you consult?

This verse only makes sense if there is a single, visible church.

Tongues are accepted in the Church as long as they conform to the instructions in scripture. Most Charismatic churches outside of the Catholic Church ignore Paul's instructions regarding tongues and their interpretations.

So the law has been changed then? Just out of curiosity, which instructions do most churches ignore?

1. You must have forgotten. I showed you the church existed at Sinai, and I showed you that Catholic Church altered history in the Liber Pontificales to show apostolic succession. I showed you other apostles, and mentioned a few churches started by them not under the pope.

2. You never answered me about why they say God is three and God is one.

3. So, if I have a dispute with someone, I am to take it before all the Catholics in the world? Surely, it means take it before the church meeting to where you belong.

4. It has happened. I go to the person's pastor, who then can act according to the discipline of that local body.

Do you realize what this looks like to any non-Catholic when they see that you steadfastly maintain that the whole world is wrong except the people in the church you belong to? That isn't even true, since survey after survey reveals that a large percentage of Catholics do not believe in the real presence, or the necessity of the mass.

No law has been changed. Your understanding is just flawed.

1 Cor 14
6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[d] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

1) That was not the Church Jesus started. Jesus built his Church on Peter. Which Church do you know that claims to be built on Peter?

2) Three persons, one God. No contradiction. Do you deny the trinity?

3) So two Christians in different churches are out of luck. You really think Jesus is so short sighted? Jesus started a single CHurch and some prideful people decided they knew better. Like Martin Luther, they changed the bible to suit their own needs.


You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone in not in the text of Paul…say right out to him: 'Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,'…I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word 'alone' is not in the Latin or the Greek text (Stoddard J. Rebuilding a Lost Faith. 1922, pp. 101-102; see also Luther M. Amic. Discussion, 1, 127).

and:

Martin Luther seemed to overlook what the Book of Hebrews taught:

1. Built does not mean started. All churches I know are built on Peter, for the exact reason of that Scripture.

2. I do not deny the trinity. When any church says "God is one, but God is three", that is an apparent contradiction. The catholic church says that. Thus the catholic church teaches contradictions.

3. I told you what Christians in different churches do in #4. And I have not heard pride coming out of a Catholic's mouth like out of you in 50 years. I was taught as a child it is a sin to go to any other church, because they are all wrong, and will contaminate my holy education. This was changed by Vatican 2. It was because I thought I heard the old pride in your OP, I questioned you on the matter. You have not yet answered correctly. You still maintain that everyone else is wrong.

I can't comment on the first quote because it does not give the Scripture verse to which it is referring.

The problem in the last two quotes is that one refers to willful sin, and the other refers to sinfulness. This is the distinction you know as "mortal sin requires full consent of the will". It is a problem still very much alive for many protestants, who do not recognize the distinctions in the Hebrew text.

The truth that all these Catholics leaving proves, is that believing that you know the truth does not teach you how to love.

1) Good luck finding a protestant who will tell you that their church is built on Peter. Are you for real?

2) There is no contradiction, just a willful choice on your part.

3) What you heard is irrelevant to truth, clearly. You seem to have heard many false teachings. Read the catechism. The fullness of truth is found in the Catholic Church. Many aspects of truth are found elsewhere, but only one Church was started by Jesus.

The Catholic Church is the largest faith in the world.(Islam is split) Millions of new Catholics are joining the Church each year. Hundreds of protestant pastors have converted in the last 15 years alone. You are wrong.