annihilation or conscious torment????

[valiant]

Just because scripture doesn't say the those in the LOF verbally say they desire death doesn't mean that they don't wish that.

Those in the lake of fire are DEAD. Apart from the Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet. They are alive,

However, regarding them scripture does say the following:

"They will be tormentedwith burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.

This is the tormenting of those being tried. That is why it is in the presence of the Lamb. But for them it is shortlived. Only the smoke is left as a testimony against them

There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

wrong translation, It actually says 'they find no rest'.. The same is said of those who worship God. They too 'find no rest' (same Greek words). It simply means in their different worship.

First of all, the word "torment" infers "to vex with grievous pains, which would denote that said torture as being on-going.

while they are being tried,

Then you have the words "the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever," which again would denote on-going torment

.

The smoke rises for ever as a testimony against them (cf Isaiah 66.24). But their torment has ceased

This supported by the following verse which says that "they will have no rest day or night." One would have to be existing in order to experience torment without having "no rest" the word meaning "no intermission, no cessation" from said torment.

the same phrase is used in chapter 4.8. but there it is translated 'cease not'. Does that also mean no cessation from torment?

Then you have the following:

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

That right as eternal punishment - destruction. (not punishing).

Since the same word "eternal" is used to describe the same thing for both parties and we know that eternal life is on-going conscious existence in the joy of the Lord, then eternal punishment must also be on-going conscious existence in separation from God.

why? it simply means one has eternal life, the other eternal death and cessation of being.

You can't have the word "Aion/eternal" meaning on-existence for one group and the same word meaning annihilation for the other group. They have to retain the same meaning.

Is annihilation not eternal? but it should be destruction.

If the above were truth, then the moniker "everlasting fire" would not be everlasting. Jesus fire is not quenched, meaning that it never goes out. There is no relief from it.

the fire is not quenched, it burns for ever. but those in it are corpses (Is 66.24)

This above scripture is speaking about Adam and Eve eating the from the tree of life and living forever in those bodies and in that fallen state.

but they didn't ear it, they were thrown out of the Garden. you make it up as you go along.

Scripture makes it clear, that when a believer dies, their spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord.

agreement at last.

For the unrighteous who die, see the fate of the rich man in the event of the rich man and Lazarus - Luke 16:19-31

but Hades was only temporary.

Eternal punishment in the lake of fire is eternal, as in, unending, no rest, conscious torment in flame. This is what scripture teaches.

For the beast and the false prophet, yes, they are ALIVE. But the people are DEAD.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The Bible is very clear on the matter.. The following verse should stop all debate.. But some people simply want to have their ears tickled and they will not be able to accept it..

Revelation 20: KJV
9 "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. {10} And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Amen. This speaks of eternal, conscious torment "where their worm dieth not" and "the fire is not quenched". Which means that Annihilationism is heretical teaching.

Here is how this false teaching is summed up:
Annihilationism (also known as extinctionism or destructionism) is a Christian belief that apart from salvation the final punishment of human beings results in their total destruction rather than their everlasting torment. It is directly related to the doctrine of conditional immortality, the idea that a human soul is not immortal unless it is given eternal life.

Now if this is really true, THEN THERE IS NO NEED FOR THE GOSPEL! And there was no need for Christ Jesus to become a Man and die for our sins. After all if every sinner simply ceases to exist, then why worry? And why believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation (which includes deliverance from eternal Hell).

The words "perish" and "destruction" have been greatly misunderstood, but the question still remains -- "If Hell (the Lake of Fire) was created for the devil and his angels, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, why would it be different for sinners cast into the same Lake of Fire?"

The Bible is crystal clear as already pointed out by Adstar. So the only question which remains is whether you prefer Satan's lies to God's truth. There is no fence-straddling in this matter.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by Adstar

The Bible is very clear on the matter.. The following verse should stop all debate.. But some people simply want to have their ears tickled and they will not be able to accept it..

Revelation 20: KJV
9 "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. {10} And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Amen. This speaks of eternal, conscious torment "where their worm dieth not" and "the fire is not quenched". Which means that Annihilationism is heretical teaching.

Eternal conscious torment of the Devil and his minions. THEY are cast in ALIVE. Men are cast in DEAD.

The worm is maggots, the fire is not quenched. They are eternal (the means of destruction). But humans are dead bodies (Isaiah 66.24)

I do not believe in annihilationism. I believe in destruction after suitable punishmen. Name one verse in Scripture which says that men will face eternal conscious punishment. It is Roman Catholic teaching and read in .,

Here is how this false teaching is summed up:
Annihilationism (also known as extinctionism or destructionism) is a Christian belief that apart from salvation the final punishment of human beings results in their total destruction rather than their everlasting torment. It is directly related to the doctrine of conditional immortality, the idea that a human soul is not immortal unless it is given eternal life.

quite correct. however annihilationism and destructionism are two different teachings.

Now if this is really true, THEN THERE IS NO NEED FOR THE GOSPEL!

so you wouldn't mind being destroyed?

And there was no need for Christ Jesus to become a Man and die for our sins. After all if every sinner simply ceases to exist, then why worry?

But He died to save us from destruction. He was worried.

And why believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation

Because we need saving?


(

which includes deliverance from eternal Hell).

But NOT from eternal conscious torment.

The words "perish" and "destruction" have been greatly misunderstood,

yes by people who want more. They were used by Plato to signify the OPPOSITE of the immortality of the soul. And HE knew Greek,

but the question still remains -- "If Hell (the Lake of Fire) was created for the devil and his angels, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, why would it be different for sinners cast into the same Lake of Fire?"

the slight difference between being dead and alive.

The Bible is crystal clear as already pointed out by Adstar.

yes that conscious torment is for the Devil who is cast in ALIVE.

So the only question which remains is whether you prefer Satan's lies to God's truth.

Absolutely, whether you believe Satan's lies about men suffering the same fate as his (with no Scripture to back it up) or whether you believe what God actually says.

There is no fence-straddling in this matter.

quite right. eternal conscious punishment is unscriptural and OUT. If you claim otherwise tell us where it is found. The dead KNOW NOTHING.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The dead KNOW NOTHING.

If the dead know nothing, then we would not have this in the Bible:

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell [Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, thatwould come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

You are claiming that because Satan is cast ALIVE into the Lake of Fire he suffers eternal torment, yet you are denying that all sinners cast into the Lake of Fire are also ALIVE. But that is not the case at all. Therefore there can be be absolutely no difference between what the Devil and his angels suffer and what human being suffer. The proof is right there in Scripture for those who are not wilfully blind and trying to mislead others (Rev 20:11-15):

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell [Hades] delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell [Hades] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

When the dead small and great "stand before God" they are very much alive. Indeed there are two resurrections mentioned by Christ -- the resurrection of life (also called the first resurrection) and the resurrection of damnation. Which means that none of your arguments have any merit.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28,29)

 

[valiant]

You are claiming that because Satan is cast ALIVE into the Lake of Fire he suffers eternal torment, yet you are denying that all sinners cast into the Lake of Fire are also ALIVE.

and I saw the DEAD, small and great, stand before God -- and they were judged every man according to their works. (rev 20). Compare Isaiah 66.24.

They were raised for judgment. But they were dead,

The beast and the false prophet were cast alive into the Lake of Fire. (19.20). The remnant of men were slain,

There must be some reason for the distinction,

But that is not the case at all. Therefore there can be be absolutely no difference between what the Devil and his angels suffer and what human being suffer.

you don't see any difference between being dead and being alive? You're strange. How can you possibly know there is absolutely no difference between the dead men and the live devil and his angels?

You cannot produce ONE Scripture which says men suffer eternal torment, NOT ONE. All you do is infer. Don't you think God would have made it absolutely plain?

The proof is right there in Scripture

But it isn't.

for those who are not wilfully blind and trying to mislead others (Rev 20:11-15):

you're being stupid so I'll ignore it.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;

there you have it. They were raised for judgment, but they were DEAD.

and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell [Hades] delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell [Hades] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Tell me, did death and Hades suffer eternal torment too? They also suffered the second death, What is He saying? They were DESTROYED. No more death, No more Hades.

When the dead small and great "stand before God" they are very much alive.

Not according to my Bible.

Indeed there are two resurrections mentioned by Christ -- the resurrection of life (also called the first resurrection) and the resurrection of damnation

.

Actually Christ only taught ONE resurrection, apart from His own, and those who rose spiritually with Him (Ephe 2.5; Col 3.1).
He specifically says so (John 5.29)

Which means that none of your arguments have any merit.

Balderdash

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28,29)

Yes one resurrection, some to life and some to DEATH at the SAME HOUR

You just swallow what you are told. But you can't find it in Scripture.