Does God ever break His word to us?

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Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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I forgot to mention that the King James calls the holy spirit "it" four times (John 1:32; Romans 8:16, 26; 1 Peter 1:11). Some other versions do the same in at least some of these verses.

I've just been looking at John 1:32 in the Greek, and also comparing translations.

"καὶ ἐμαρτύρησεν Ἰωάννης λέγων ὅτι Τεθέαμαι τὸ πνεῦμα καταβαῖνον ὡς περιστερὰν ἐξ οὐρανοῦ, καὶ ἔμεινεν ἐπ’ αὐτόν·" John 1:32

I think the key word here
ἔμεινεν or emeinen is the Aorist Active Indicative. My Linguistical key says this Aorist is "Constative" which means it has happened. So "remained" for the verb, with the subject being understood. But the question is, understood as what??

ESV follows KJV, which I find it does in many places in the NT.

"And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him." John 1:32 ESV

NIV seems to solve the issue by more or less paraphrasing the line and not using a pronoun at all, but letting it refer back to the accusative of the principal clause. What I don't like about this translation, is that it loses the "aorist" feel to the word "remain." I suppose it could be loosely described as something "undefined" but it really is not true to the the word "meno." (I think all this work I have been doing on phrasing would really pay off for this verse. I also wonder how much input my professor had on this verse, as he is on both the NIV and the ESV translation and revision committees?)

"
Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him." John 1:32 NIV.

Holman's really goes all out with the deity of both Christ and the Holy Spirit, and takes a bold step and uses "He." A definite statement by the translation committee and really opposing the KJV, in particular. I'm not sure if "rest" though, is the best translation of the word although it does convey the meaning. I do like the way it retains the word order in the first clause, by saying "from heaven, like a dove.

"
And John testified, “I watched the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He rested on Him." HCSB

Finally, NASB. Maybe I need to go back and read this version? Back to lots of capitals, which I remember the NASB is very famous for.

"John testified saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him." John 1:32 NASB

I'm not going to look at the other verses, as I really need to go study Greek - specifically the passages we have been studying for my mid-term.

I would say that technically, KJV and ESV are correct, as this is a neuter verb in the 3rd person sg. But theologically, I do not agree. And the fact that the neuter pronoun only appears in 4 places in the whole NT says to me that we need to focus on the Holy Spirit being a person, not an "it." "It" implies a "thing." Using "He" is a much better theological construct. And as I posted before, gender in Greek is not something that means the object or person is actually masculine, feminine or neuter, but the way the language developed over time, as a grammatical device.

So using "it" is not a theological concept, but rather a grammatical issue. And perhaps to the ancient Greeks a "spirit" was a "thing." That does not mean that the Holy Spirit is a thing!

Really interesting discussion, though. And looking at the fact that 1 Peter is one of the verses, Peter almost certainly used a scribe or amaneusis to write this verse. I am sure a scribe would have been very careful to get the Greek gender correct, as that is what he was being paid to do. I would love to look at all these verses, but now is not the time.
 
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AuntieAnt

Guest
You osas folks deny this to your death. You say once you have it, it can never be lost or taken away.

Anyone that reads my posts know that I try to read the bible every day. And this morning I came across something that, the first few times I read, it meant little to me, but this morning realized it has great merit in this topic. Neat how His word does that, huh?

So I have always said you can backslide, as the bible tells us repeatedly, yet some deny, and have given several times my personal testimony of doing it myself, along with irrefutable evidence.
Yet some still sin daily and claim to be saved.

So tell me, does God ever break a promise?

This may come as a shock to you but nobody gets points for reading the Bible every day. Satan knows the Word better than any of us. Knowing words don't cut no ice with God.

You have not surrendered your carnal intellect and surrendered to the truth that God is the One at work in us. He completes what He started. Nobody can stop Him, not even your post that claims we can.

Jesus said He can't deny Himself even if we lack faith. It is His very nature to will and to do His good pleasure in us. If you think you're keeping yourself saved, you don't yet realize what great thing God has done through Jesus Christ.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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When you take the scriptures as a "whole" you can readily see that the Holy Spirit is not an "it"..He is God inside of us..has a few names..the Spirit of grace..the Spirit of Christ for instance

...the Father and the Christ are in us as well....we have the 3 in one.

Here the Holy Spirit testified to Paul about the future.

Acts 20:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] except that the Holy Spirit solemnly testifies to me in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions await me.


Here the Holy Spirit testified to us that we are the children of God.


Romans 8:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,


Here the Holy Spirit testifies and He has a voice...

Hebrews 10:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, [SUP]16 [/SUP] "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," He then says,

Here Jesus said that the Holy Spirit is a "He"

Luke 4:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,


Here the Holy Spirit spoke and then sent Paul and Barnabas out...

Acts 13:2-4 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia and from there they sailed to Cyprus.
 
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Txroads

Guest
The Holy Spirit is not an "it". He is a He. He is the third "person" in the trinity..God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit.. Last i checked Jesus and God were both male... The Holy Spirit is a person, look at the fruits of the Spirit... If i didn't know any better I'd say each and every one of those "fruits" was an "attribute" of a person. The Holy Spirit can be grieved (Eph. 4) he knows joy (gal. 5) he has a mind (Isaiah 55) and he has a soul ( matt. 26)... He was sent so we could learn from Him and so He could lead us.......
Sounds like a pretty good fella ta me....
 
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coby

Guest
This may come as a shock to you but nobody gets points for reading the Bible every day. Satan knows the Word better than any of us. Knowing words don't cut no ice with God.

You have not surrendered your carnal intellect and surrendered to the truth that God is the One at work in us. He completes what He started. Nobody can stop Him, not even your post that claims we can.

Jesus said He can't deny Himself even if we lack faith. It is His very nature to will and to do His good pleasure in us. If you think you're keeping yourself saved, you don't yet realize what great thing God has done through Jesus Christ.
It's not a sin to test yourself if you're in the faith, Paul says do that. The foolish man looked in the mirror and forgot what he looked like. If it's okay it's okay. If you see a spot on your face you remove it, so if you see a habitual sin repent and let Him wash it away with His blood. I thought I could never backslide, impossible, until I did. It simply happens all the time. Look at the divorce rate among christians. Were they never christian?
In our church I saw people who were on fire and now you don't see 'em anymore. They're living together with someone in sin. They're not saved now. We have to pray that they come back. The lost son was dead. My son was dead and now he's alive again. There are so many former born again ex christians. One is now an owner of an atheist site. He wrote a book and pulled a lot of christians from their faith. He's not saved now but he really was. God told me to pray for him. We have to make our election sure, not doubt our salvation, but just regularly check the mirror.
The foolish virgins, the falling away reminds me of the foolish man who walked away and forgot what he looked like. If there is no victory in something, get deliverance, confess your sins, get prayer, get filled with the Holy Spirit and if it's good it's good.
If I read the Word I see that I'm not as on fire as Peter was.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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So using "it" is not a theological concept, but rather a grammatical issue. And perhaps to the ancient Greeks a "spirit" was a "thing." That does not mean that the Holy Spirit is a thing!

Really interesting discussion, though. And looking at the fact that 1 Peter is one of the verses, Peter almost certainly used a scribe or amaneusis to write this verse. I am sure a scribe would have been very careful to get the Greek gender correct, as that is what he was being paid to do. I would love to look at all these verses, but now is not the time. [/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]
I think you'll find that it became a theological issue when the church was battling the gnostics who believed the holy spirit was the female part of the godhead. So making the holy spirit a he set them apart from the gnostics. Before then it wasn't an issue.

IMO the holy spirit appears in the OT as a neutral entity. I could be tempted to call it feminine because Isaiah portrays the 7-fold spirit of GOD with mostly feminine personages (i.e., wisdom, understanding, knowledge, etc). That's too complicated for me, so I just call it the spirit of truth.
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
I think you'll find that it became a theological issue when the church was battling the gnostics who believed the holy spirit was the female part of the godhead. So making the holy spirit a he set them apart from the gnostics. Before then it wasn't an issue.

IMO the holy spirit appears in the OT as a neutral entity. I could be tempted to call it feminine because Isaiah portrays the 7-fold spirit of GOD with mostly feminine personages (i.e., wisdom, understanding, knowledge, etc). That's too complicated for me, so I just call it the spirit of truth.
Is your Holy Spirit the third Person of the Holy Trinity?
 
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coby

Guest
I think you'll find that it became a theological issue when the church was battling the gnostics who believed the holy spirit was the female part of the godhead. So making the holy spirit a he set them apart from the gnostics. Before then it wasn't an issue.

IMO the holy spirit appears in the OT as a neutral entity. I could be tempted to call it feminine because Isaiah portrays the 7-fold spirit of GOD with mostly feminine personages (i.e., wisdom, understanding, knowledge, etc). That's too complicated for me, so I just call it the spirit of truth.
Oh now I get what you mean. Why don't you call the Father It then?
Is God male or female?
 
A

AuntieAnt

Guest
It's not a sin to test yourself if you're in the faith, Paul says do that. The foolish man looked in the mirror and forgot what he looked like. If it's okay it's okay. If you see a spot on your face you remove it, so if you see a habitual sin repent and let Him wash it away with His blood. I thought I could never backslide, impossible, until I did. It simply happens all the time. Look at the divorce rate among christians. Were they never christian?
In our church I saw people who were on fire and now you don't see 'em anymore. They're living together with someone in sin. They're not saved now. We have to pray that they come back. The lost son was dead. My son was dead and now he's alive again. There are so many former born again ex christians. One is now an owner of an atheist site. He wrote a book and pulled a lot of christians from their faith. He's not saved now but he really was. God told me to pray for him. We have to make our election sure, not doubt our salvation, but just regularly check the mirror.
The foolish virgins, the falling away reminds me of the foolish man who walked away and forgot what he looked like. If there is no victory in something, get deliverance, confess your sins, get prayer, get filled with the Holy Spirit and if it's good it's good.
If I read the Word I see that I'm not as on fire as Peter was.

What you're suggesting may sound "right" to you, but it's in opposition to the truth. You're repeating the same legalistic off-based religious jargon that keeps some Christians in bondage to guilt and also repels lost folks because that baloney doesn't save. It's wood, hay & stubble.


You would do well to Google:

The Good Seed - The Nature of Christ
by Lloyd Ellefson

I'm not saying the Word is baloney (God forbid!) - I'm saying you're taking it out of context and putting your interpretation over the reality of Christ Himself.
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
Because Jesus specifically referred to him as Father.

Jesus never called the holy spirit, Mr. Holy Spirit.
But He did refer to the Holy Spirit as "Him". So.....


Come on HeRose, let's see how deep the rabbit hole really goes. Is your Holy Spirit the third Person of the Holy Trinity or not?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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WAS Naoh saved when he drunk himself into a passed out state.....Jesus saved me knowing full well every sin I would commit..the word is clear...where sin abounds..grace did much more abound.....I will stick with that..opinion, cojecture, supposition and the views of fallable men will never trump the word ever......!
 
Dec 1, 2014
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WAS Naoh saved when he drunk himself into a passed out state.....Jesus saved me knowing full well every sin I would commit..the word is clear...where sin abounds..grace did much more abound.....I will stick with that..opinion, cojecture, supposition and the views of fallable men will never trump the word ever......!
My Brother!
 
Feb 22, 2016
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WAS Naoh saved when he drunk himself into a passed out state.....Jesus saved me knowing full well every sin I would commit..the word is clear...where sin abounds..grace did much more abound.....I will stick with that..opinion, cojecture, supposition and the views of fallable men will never trump the word ever......!
Amen!

What shall we say then to these things?
If God be for us, who can be against us.

He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all,
how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?

Who shall lay anything to the charge of
God's elect? It is God that justifies.

Who is he that condemns? It is Christ that died, yea rather,
that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God,
who also makes intercession for us. . . . . .(Rom.8:31-34)
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead

I think you'll find that it became a theological issue when the church was battling the gnostics who believed the holy spirit was the female part of the godhead. So making the holy spirit a he set them apart from the gnostics. Before then it wasn't an issue.

IMO the holy spirit appears in the OT as a neutral entity. I could be tempted to call it feminine because Isaiah portrays the 7-fold spirit of GOD with mostly feminine personages (i.e., wisdom, understanding, knowledge, etc). That's too complicated for me, so I just call it the spirit of truth.

Is your Holy Spirit the third Person of the Holy Trinity?
His silence is deafening.............