Grace = Salvation.

[Cobus]

All that and you miss the most basic and simple context of all. It is not what you do but what Christ has done. When Jesus washed the feet of His disciples He illustrated the need for believers to daily confess their failings before the Lord. Treading through this world we become soiled and need the Lord to cleanse us from that filth that we accumulate. Jesus clearly taught that is was not a re-saving but a continuous renewing of the clean relationship that the new birth created.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

First the ALL THAT AND YOU MISS... my friend if I missed what Jesus had DONE, I will NEVER GET CLEANSED... but if I miss what JESUS IS DOING TODAY, I WILL NEVER LIVE A LIFE PLEASING TO GOD....

Roger do we need to take up our cross and follow Christ? Roger can ANY man be saved without TAKING UP HIS CROSS? And if HE DOES PICK IT UP, DOS HE HAVE TO FOLLOW JESUS.... So what is JESUS doing TODAY for a sinner? HE LEADS HIM, BUT!!!!! HE LEADS SINNERS.... And if they do NOT TAKE UP the CROSS and do NOT FOLLOW HIM they CANNOT BE SAVED...


Not one person can sit in his sin and think he will be saved.... TAKE UP YOUR CROSS AND FOLLOW JESUS...Do not let people tell you ANYTHING else.... If yo read this and do not understand and are shy PM me! I willshow you in the Word what happens if you do this,,, If YOU DO TAKE UP YOUR CROSS AND FOLLOW JESUS, GREAT THINGS HAPPEN...


Roger how is it we read the SAME WORDS and get two OPPOSITE meanings from the words? Let us do the part of the WASHING OF THE FEET.... And I will do my best to see that Jesus illustrated the need for believers...

 

[Cobus]

He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.
Joh 13:5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
Joh 13:6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
Joh 13:7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
Joh 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
Joh 13:9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Joh 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
Joh 13:12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
Joh 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
Joh 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
Joh 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Joh 13:17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
Joh 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
Joh 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

Roger where is the “DAILY CONFESSING” in this scripture? WOW can you read what is not there? No mu friend you add way too much to Scripture…. What I see here is even If Jesus just wash our feet, WE NEED NO MORE WASHING… Jesus said PETER need NOT washing of HIS WHOLE BODY, that just the FEET WASHING OF JESUS, IS ENOUGH O WASH SPOTLESS… Where is the continious washing in that? If you want to get this in other scripturre to get confirmatio nhow WELL JESUS DOES WITH FEET… It IS … TAKE UP YOUR CROSS AND PUT YOUR FEET IN HIS PRINTS…. Let JESUS GUIDE AND WASH YOUR FEET AND YOU WILL BE CLEANES PERFECTLY…

If you had aid THAT I can relate.. And I know it is TAKE UP YOUR CROSS DAILY!!!! But! AFTER JESUS WASHED THE FEET there were STILL ONE WHO IS NOT CLEAN, but the OTHERS WERE!!!! Why go for another wash if you ARE CLEAN… that is like saying to Jesus.. NOW WASH THE REST OF MY BODY… You will get the same answer, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

Again ROGER Jesus said if HE HAS CLEANED MY FEET, I SHOULD GO CLEAN YOURS…. But should I clean your feet if HE DID NOT WASH MINE? And if he did not wash mine, A I CLEAN TO WASH YOURS?

However if HE DID WASH MY FEET AM I CLEAN? And if I am how clean am I enough to wash yours? Come on do not twist the Word. If Jesus washed you and you are clean, then you can wash others. And if you are not clean YOU CANNOT WASH OTHERS…

 

[Bookends]

Hebrews 9
[h=3]The Mediator’s Death Necessary[/h][SUP]16 [/SUP]For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, [SUP]20 [/SUP]saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.”[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

 

[Bookends]

First mistake.... Cobus does not pursue the LAW of RIGHTEOUSNESS, but the SPIRIT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS... And the SPIRIT ALWAYS ATTAIN the righteousness of God wich is WAY higher than the LAW WAY higher...

I seek it not by faith, but by a HUNGER and a THIRST that GOD HAS IMPLANTED IN ME... If you want to call this hunger and thirst FAITH, Good call it faith... But GD GAURENTEES that .... Blessed are the ones that hunger and thirst after righteousness: FOR THEY SHALL BE FILLED...Cobus SHALL BE FILLED, God Already decided that.

God says I SHALL NEVER STUMBLE NEVER... God called me to be RIGHTEOUS and the THIRST AND THE HUNGER FOR IT SHALL BE FILLED, and then I gave DILIGENCE TO MAKE MY CALLING AND ELECTION SURE: FOR IF I DO THESE THINGS, I SHALL NEVER FALL!!!! Read it in 2 Peter 1:10.... NEVER FALL, NEVER STUMBLE.... NEVER BE TOSSED TO AND FRO BY FALSE DOCTRINE TEACHINGS AND TEACHERS.... God's Kingdom is PERFECT and SOLID and SECURE and HOLY and IN HIS CONTROL. Even when I join it, IT WILL STILL BE PERFECT.

Bookie it is a great Gospel is it not?

Actually what you are saying is that no one can be saved until God takes away ALL their sin. That this is a doing of God not based on His sacrifice, but based on your interpretation of certain scripture passages. Thus, it must be ok to sin until God does this right? Man has no moral obligation to try or strive to obey and not sin because men and woman can not help not to sin unless God takes it away. The logical conclusion of this thinking is that I might as well go and sin all I want until God takes sin out of me.

You teach a false gospel Cobus, what you teach is not wonderful. It places enormous pressure on the people of God for God to make them completely Holy and sinless and if they aren't, then those who PUT their trust in the Lord (His sacrifice, shedding of blood) ONLY for the forgiveness of their sins are always in a state of flux regarding their position in Christ.

Is my waiting on God to make me Holy as Christ reassuring to me, does it make me shout for joy, does it give me inner peace now? NO...The fact that God gives, imputes all this (Christ's holy attributes) to me in spite of my short comings, in spite of me deserving it, because I sincerely repented and asked for His free gift, makes me cry out "Abby Father". I am saved on the basis of what Christ did, not what He is doing within me.

Hebrews 12:14
Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification (holiness) without which no one will see the Lord.
The author puts pursuit of peace and sanctification on us, the Holy Spirit does it through our co-operation. It's not a magic snap of God's fingers and all of a sudden we are sinless and perfect. Also this passage doesn't say to be in peace, or to be holy, and without it you won't see the Lord. It says to SEEK it, and in SEEKING it we will see the Lord. It goes right alone with the most important NT commandment to seek God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength; Matthew 7:7-8, Deut. 4:29, 1 Chronicles 22:19, 28:9, Luke 10:27 etc. etc.


[SUP]7 [/SUP]“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

 

[Cobus]

Bookie and Roger, let me first tell you how POWERFUL the BLOOD ofJesus cleanse.... If not only washes away the sin, Like the blood of goats andsteers also did, but the Blood of OUR LAMB also CLEARS THE CONSCIENCE.... whatSteers and Goats COULD NOT DO. So if you think I will EVER teach a Gospel whereth eBLOOD OF THE LAMB is not a MAJOR part of the preach, yuo are GRAVELYmistaken.



If there is one person that knows how good the blood cleans, ASK COBUS! So Iwill NEVER not acknowledge the cross and if I have something to boast about, itis that the LAMB'S BLOOD also are for me and my past.... BUT! That blood onlyWASH AWAY... The KEEP away is another thing JESUS DID.... Jesus stood UP FROMTHE DEAD.... Just as we DIE OFF THE OLD IN THE BLOOD, so we shall be resurrectedIN HIS LIFE!



If we DO NOT go through the BLOOD we CANNOT be cleansed.... But if we DO GOTHROUGH, God does not only make us clean but KEEP us clean... HOW? BY GIVING USA NEW BIRTH... A BIRTH OUT OF HIM... BORN OF GOD... You CANNOT be born of GodBEFORE you go through the BLOOD....



It is true God HAS to take away our sin BEFORE we PASS through JESUS.... IAlways thought of it as if I walk from the WORLD and ALL my sin, THROUGH ADOOR, INTO A HOLY GOD.... Jesus is the door, and the sin is left on the otherside...



Here is how I get it in the Bible.... We sin, the Holy Spirit shows us ALL thesin and together with Him we die off ALL SIN... As the FAITH and theRELATIONSHIP deepens on the time we spend in the Word, the Spirit seperates usfrom evil... Sanctification... Set apart. Oh the sin is still just around thecorner, but the NEED TO DO IT is GONE!

Let us take smoking as one that you died off... The sinof smoking, you laid down, and in stead of longing for a smoke, you HATEsmoking and are even offended by OTHER PEOPLES SMOKE... I cannot even breatheother smoke without getting physical constrained (I do not know another Englishword) but I almost hurl when I breathe in smoke... That is how the sin is notpart of me any longer. I know I cannot smoke again... It is just to aweful...And i used to LOVE IT...

And so God removes sin from us... BUT the dirt of thatsin is STILL ON THE CARDS... I rule over that sin because the Holy SpiritASSISTED me in the CONFESSING AND DIEING TO THAT SIN... DIE to the flesh andfollow the Spirit...

Then we tackle the next sin... And soon we are done WITHALL SIN... then the sanctification is DONE! Now is the time for a FORGIVENESSand a ONCE OFF BAPTISM IN THE BLOOD WORK OF JESUS... The FINAL WORK JESUS DOESON A PERSON THAT REPENTED... IS TO BAPTIZE THAT PERSON.... This PURE spiritthat worked with the Holy Spirit, will now be WASHED/CLEANSED of ALLunrighteousness in ONE CLEAN BAPTISM... Jesus DIPS US IN HIS BLOOD, and IN THEBLOOD THE PURE SPIRIT ARE TURNED INTO THE HOLY SPIRIT!

I get it that sin is removed LONG before it isforgiven... God knows how to forgive, and that forgiveness is a ONE STEPBAPTISM... A pure spirit is baptized in the BLOOD, and the HOLY SPIRIT risesfrom the blood. The Holy Spirit baptism can ONLY be done to PURE SPIRITS... nosinning spirit can be baptized with the Holy Spirit... It the spirit needs tobe cleansed first... god cannot clean what we keep make dirty with sin... WEHAVE TO STOP!

 

[notuptome]

Roger how is it we read the SAME WORDS and get two OPPOSITE meanings from the words? Let us do the part of the WASHING OF THE FEET.... And I will do my best to see that Jesus illustrated the need for believers...

One of us has the Holy Spirit as guide the other doesn't.

You cannot achieve sinless perfection here in this world. God has chosen to place this treasure, salvation, in earthen vessels that the power of the glory might be of God. 2 Cor 4:7

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Cobus]

Roger it is NOT I that achieve it (sinless perfection), IT IS GOD'S SALVATION AND HIS SPIRIT IN ME THAT ARE THE PERFECTION... God cannot be imperfect, Not in heaven and not on earth... NOT IN JESUS AND NOT IN ME!!!! GOD can ONLY be PERFECT! ALSO IN ME HE IS PERFECT!

Roger who is the sinner in this Scripture... And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;

Here is a situation Jesus asks the Father to execute to ALL WHO BELIEVE ON HIM.... And Jesus asks the FATHER.... DO IT RIGHT HERE ON EARTH.... NOT IN THE AFTER-LIFE... RIGHT HERE ON EARTH...

So Roger who is the sinner in this Scripture? Jesus in the MAN or the MAN in Jesus? God in the MAN or the MAN IN GOD?
THERE IS NO SIN IN THIS SITUATION... ONLY PERFECTLY IN ONE... PERFECT IN GOD, PERFECT IN THE MAN! God in the Man and the MAN in GOD! NO SIN, ONLY PERFECTION...

If you do not believe God can and will male you perfect here, will HE still make you perfect? I guess if HE wants to, you have no say? Who can counsil with God, ME AS SINNER? WOW! Does God need my permission to CALL, SANCTIFY, JUSTIFY and GLORIFY me? Whom of the NAMES in the BOOK OF LIFE that was written BEFORE the EARTH WAS FORMED, was ASKED if they want their names there?

Come on Roger we are talking about GOD's salvation, not the churches of the world's salvation... GOD'S! He saves PERFECTLY!

 

[Bookends]

Ephesians 1
[SUP]7 [/SUP]In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

 

[JDecree]

JDecree, let me show you if God declares them PERFECT of NOT...

Maybe you didnt understand my question or I am just not reading right but you didnt answer me as far as I can see. That or you said basically that yes, only a perfect saint can effectively baptize someone. This damns us all if you are right(unless you happen to know some perfect saint somehow...do you?).

You then go on to repeat the same things you have already said before. Yes, there is one baptism. And? One baptism, water and Spirit. Ok. Says nothing of perfection.

If we had to save ourselves, heaven would be the most desolate place known to human....... But is God saves us

We do have to according to what you say. You told me that a believer only recieves the baptism of the Holy Spirit once they are already perfect, which they must do themselves. You are basically saying that we can do the thing that only God can make happen. But then again I see you go back and forth on this...you said Cornelius didnt have the Holy Spirit and he stopped sinning, then you say the Holy Spirit only leads, then you say YOU have the Holy Spirit IN YOU, then you say you still sin...man I think you are just as confused as I am, only you dont realize it.

On this day Friday 11 October 2013, God showed me the differance between a PURE SPIRIT and THE HOLY SPIRIT... They are BOTH 100% WITHOUT SIN, but the one CAN GO BACK TO SIN, or START SINNING the OTHER CANNOT SIN, NOT 10 BILLION YEARS BACK, and NOT NOW, and NOT EVER! SPIRIT CANNOT SIN!

So now there are 2 gospels, 2 types of perfect people(one who is just a little less perfect than the other--impossible)


I must have asked 10 questions at least in my last post, none of which you dealt with point by point. Very difficult to discuss these things that way. I know I dont answer your much either...We each go off on our huge 2 page rants and it gets cluttered...

 

[JDecree]

Cobus I think the big issue comes from this:

Almost all of Christianity teaches VERY clearly, we must grow, be sanctified, put to death the deeds of the flesh, remove sin from our lives piece by piece. Correct?

So obviously we all believe it is possible to some extent, otherwise why try?

I am trying to do so. If I did a poll on here I'm sure most everyone would say the same. If I asked them "are you trying to stop sinning, by God's grace and power?" I am confident we would all say yes.

You say God will save who He will save and we cant get in the way of that. I think I would agree with that. So what is the problem? Whether we believe it is possible or not? Do you think when we say "we will only be perfect when the LORD returns" that we then immediately stop fighting sin? No! Our conscience and hopefully the Holy Spirit will not allow us to keep on sinning.

You know what else helps a person to stop sinning? Forgiveness. Grace. Eternal life. I think(somewhat from experience........) that a person serves God best out of a thankful heart, a forgiven heart, a hopeful heart. If I know God loves me, has saved me and forgiven me, and that I have eternal life, wow how I would be empowered to endure anything.

But what you say is "you are not saved"

 

[JDecree]

Let me tell you what has happened to me since I got hit with the idea of sinless perfection. Get some popcorn.

Major anxiety, sleepless nights, periods of not being able to read the bible because all I could suddenly see in it was condemnation...texts that used to give great comfort became death sentences(it is getting better now). I didnt want to do bible study incase I 'infected' my friends with this feeling.

My thoughts became VERY selfish(still are). All I can really think about is myself. I find myself angry, not able to handle small things in life. I find myself angry with the state of Christianity. I find myself swearing again. I find myself being bitter. Situations where I used to have that supernatural peace are now unbearable. I have seen a sort of sarcasm towards God inside that really scared me.

Then my anxiety became so bad I started feeling it physically. Every ache or pain was some new illness, in my mind. I have never been a hypocondriac in my life before this. Then my doctor noticed a lump I had on my thyroid for a while now and decided to check it out. It could have been cancer. It took 3 months to find out what it was, in the meantime I was sure God was giving me cancer to kill me. It wasnt cancer. Then I got a lump on my right shin. Weird. Might be a tumor. Took a month or 2 to finally diagnose it, it was just scar tissue. Then I had spots in my mouth, might be cancer. Took 6 months to finally see it wasnt cancer. Then just last month I was in the hospital for some strange and rare disease called vasculitis. They had me quarantined and I thought I might possibly die in there...I asked myself, would I actually die in faith, in Christ, if I were to die right now? The answer I worried was no.

I would witness to people but I dont want them to be put under this burdensome feeling. I heard of the book Pilgrim's Progress which everyone raves about as though it is the most heartwarming encouraging story ever, so I began reading it but it scared me to death.

I began to only know God as a stern judge.

I cry everyday for the LORD to save me. Maybe I already am. I once thought so, I still hope so today.

What this all means, I dont know, but it is what the doctrine of sinless perfection has caused in me.

 

[Cobus]

Jdecree,EVERY child of God goes theough a chasting... but if we run AWAY from thechasting we run away from the FATHER... I beat on my chest and I say... OHSTUPID SINNER COBUS WHERE SHALL YOU HELP COME FROM? Oh my help is from the GODof the universe.... Thank Jesus Christ for that....

My friend Ithank God we met. I think we are going to be VERY blessed, AGAINST all odds andthe odds ARE HUGE... But let us pray this, and with ALL I got I am going tobelieve this....


Father God,Christ Jesus, and LORD of all holy. Holy Holy Holy art thou and to thy belongthe Power the Golry and the Kingdom Forever. Lord, give us YOUR Truth today.Lord help us to FOCUS ON YOU! Lord SHOW us who we are IN YOU, and Lord help us live THAT LIFE IN YOU. AMEN!

Jdecree I amgoing to show you how “Christians” believe and how dangerous their faith is...You said this in and I will put it in BLUE...

Point 2. Almostall of Christianity teaches VERY clearly, we must grow, be sanctified, put todeath the deeds of the flesh, remove sin from our lives piece by piece.Correct?

Point 1. So obviously we all believe it is possible to some extent, otherwisewhy try?
Let usadress point 1 in your statement first...

Do you think any person that does believe it is possible would say this: You cannot achieve sinless perfection here in this world.(green for Roger in posted thread number 66)

This is my problem Ihave with “Christians”. They all say we should stop sinning, but none of themdid! How hypocratical is that? Hey STOP sinning, but you will never succeed....It is like Telling me to score a goal but there are no goalposts... NONE! Do you think Roger believes it is ACTUALLYpossible? And you say OBVIOUSLY WE ALLBELIEVE IT IS POSSIBLE.... my friend I spoke to MANY “Christians” throughoutthe world... there is only a handful that believes we can actually attain youPOINT NUMBER TWO... Only a handful...

You can test ityourself... Go to your church and say.... Do you people know that we shouldlive a life without sin here on earth?... And see what answers you get. Orbetter yet... Just tell them.... Hey guys, we should be perfect right hereright now!... And see what happens...

Look Roger is theChristian I met that puts up the BIGGEST attemp to prove that we cannot beperfect here on earth. He uses a lot of Scripture to prove this, but he FAILSmisrably, because there is NO SCRIPTURE that says.... You will ALWAYS beunrighteous... You will always be sinners.... You will always be imperfect onthis world... What the Bible does say is... BE PERFECT, AS GOD IS SO ARE WE ONTHIS WORLD... BORN OF GOD DOES NOT SIN AND CANNOT SIN... UNTO A PERFECT MAN...this is what the Bible teaches us....

The sinners that NEEDSGod for the NEW life GAVE up long ago... they TRIED to enter into the gate, andSTOPPED TO STRIVE HARD.... and now? They set up a NEW LEVEL of righteousness,and a new level of holiness, and a new salvation... one that says... Do notworry if you sin, Jesus died for your sin.... God looks at the blood and seeyou holy.... What a load of BULL MANURE... Worthless salt... Their doctrinesFAIL God’s perfection... Even our DOCTRINE shoul be perfect.. And Jdecree, atleast give me the credit that my doctrine does not CONTRADICT God’s Word evenONCE... Show me ONE verse in the Bible that does not fit PERFECTION IN CHRIST!Just ONE! If you can do that, I will quit and NEVER return, then you can haveyour merry way with all the Christians...

But now... Let us doPoint 2. And I will show you how close you are to SET THE GOAL AT THE RIGHTPLACE...

Point2. Almost all of Christianity teaches VERY clearly, we must grow, besanctified, put to death the deeds of the flesh, remove sin from our livespiece by piece. Correct?


I need you to NOT focuson what or who you are now. I want you to focus on the Jdecree that God hasrecreated in Christ Jesus... Think you have grown and are now fully grown, howdo you look now as this fully grown? And you are now fully sanctified... How doyou look now?... and you did put to death the deeds of the flesh, how do youlook now? You did remove all sin from your life, how do you look now? Would yousay this IS a perfect creature in Christ? Jdecree imagine you are fully grown,fully sanctified, dead to flesh, removed from sin... would you be perfect then?YES!!!! Are you IN Christ then? YES!!!! Do you believe other Christians thinkthat is obtained or attained here on earth... Boy is there a HUGE awakening foryou.... 99.999999 % says and believes it is IMPOSSIBLE, even for God to attainthis in a person.... AND THAT IS WHY I AM HERE,,,, to prove this SCRIPTURE isTRUE....
Whothen can be saved? But Jesus beheld them,and said unto them, With men this is impossible; butwith God all things are possible.

JDecree it is possiblefor God to save us... To where HE WANTS US SAVED.... HIS WILL HISRIGHTEOUSNESS.

 

[Cobus]

JDecree,here is our problem if we say we cannot be perfect here on earth... God said BEPERFECT, not become perfect when I return. God says that whosoever are BORN OFHIM SINNETH NOT ... Why would we not believe this? I will tell you why... Webelieve what is NOT written in the Bible...

How manytimes did you hear this... Nobody is perfect.... Do you also say so or believeso? Answer in your head, or out loud but answer this ... Do you also believe,there is NO ONE PERFECT right here on earth? If you answer is YES, then whatabout this....

Is Jesusperfect? Is Jesus here on earth, RIGHT NOW? What about the Holy Spirit? IsJesus and the Holy Spirit not the same Spirit? Ok let us make it more us.... IfJesus and the Father makes their abode with us.... ARE THEY PERFECT... If Jesusand the Father is in me ARE THEY PERFECT? If so then there is the first lie youbelieved, that NO ONE IS PERFECT...

Look here inthis verse and tell me where is this man that Father God and Jesus make theirabode...
If a man love me, he will keep my words: and myFather will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
It is onlyon this earth that we get the chance to KEEP His words, even this words of BEPERFECT... Now tell me this man that BOTH the Father and the Son in the HOLYSPIRIT lives in is still a sinner! CANNOT BE.. They are the perfection in thisman, and He is perfected with THEM IN HIM...

 

[JDecree]

Lord SHOW us who we are IN YOU,

Why pray that? You arent in Him, by your own doctrine. You are no closer to God than any atheist or buddist or anyone. If you, or 'we' as you said were in Him, we would be sinless and perfect, remember? Be consistent, it will help others believe your message.

They all say we should stop sinning, but none of themdid! How hypocratical is that?

I can say the same for the perfectionists.

These were my exact words by the way:
So obviously we all believe it is possible to some extent, otherwise why try?

The sinners that NEEDSGod for the NEW life GAVE up long ago... they TRIED to enter into the gate, andSTOPPED TO STRIVE HARD.... and now? They set up a NEW LEVEL of righteousness,and a new level of holiness, and a new salvation... one that says... Do notworry if you sin, Jesus died for your sin.... God looks at the blood and seeyou holy.... What a load of BULL MANURE... Worthless salt... Their doctrinesFAIL God’s perfection... Even our DOCTRINE shoul be perfect.. And Jdecree, atleast give me the credit that my doctrine does not CONTRADICT God’s Word evenONCE... Show me ONE verse in the Bible that does not fit PERFECTION IN CHRIST!Just ONE! If you can do that, I will quit and NEVER return, then you can haveyour merry way with all the Christians...

Man, have you ever debated with a sabbatarian? They will say the same, "show me ONE verse in the bible that says the sabbath is done away with. Just ONE!!!! See I win!" And I WAS that guy, and no, there isnt ONE verse that says it. But as my understanding grew of the two covenants and such, it became clear to me.

JDecree it is possiblefor God to save us...

Sure, but will He? Why? I am a sinner. God only saves perfect people remember? A healthy person goes to the physician in your book. Christ died for the godly only.


You didnt address most of the points I made and went on to basically repeat the same things you have said over and over. Then you say "I dare someone to bring a point against what I have said!" We are...but you ignore them as issues.

This is kind of going nowhere. This hasnt been a waste of time for either of us though I dont think. I have heard what you have said and taken it into consideration. The search continues.

Thanks for wrestling with me, Cobus.

 

[Cobus]

Why pray that?

JDecree, why would I pray that? Did God not say the HolySpirit will ASSIST us in prayer when we ARE NOT PERFECT YET? For we know notwhat to ask... Maybe I been assisted to ask that...

I do not know why I cannot express what I believe, I REALLY try to put it assimple as it really is. So let me obey the message I had this morning...

Let me show you why people that are Christians do not GET how GOOD GOD DOEStake care of HIS FLOCK.

Please try to be a young boy of 7 now..... Let us reed what God's Kingdom islike... With ALL I shared with you thus far, LET ME SHARE WITH YOU WHAT HISKONGDOM IS LIKE....

Now be like a child of 7 to 10, and LIVE THIS AS WE READ.... Try to think withNO SIN IN YOU, like an INNOCENT CHILD THAT KNOWS NO SIN.... Do not, DO NOTTHINL OF SIN AT ALL NOW... Just LIVE THIS SCRIPTURE AS WE READ IT...



Verily, verily, I say unto you,He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some otherway, the same is a thief and a robber.

Like a little child, SEE THESHEEPFOLD, AN ENCLOSED AREA WHERE SHEEP ARE KEPT AT NIGHT.

On the Farm I grew up it was a pennbuild by stones from the field we cleared for plowing. It had a stone wall ofabout four feet high, a gate where the sheep entered and a door where the shepherdcan easily enter and exit to the sheep. Now see the penn and see the sheep inthe penn. Also see how sheep herder enters into the penn through the door! Alsosee some crook climbing into the penn over the four foot wall. Or over the gateas a thief will do... I can already see the sheep nervous with this strangerthere. I been that stranger Amongst REAL SHEEP, MANY TIMES...I am on farmsregularaly...



Joh 10:2 But he that enterethin by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

Again see the SHEPHERD that enters into thepenn BY THE DOOR.



Joh 10:3 To him the porteropeneth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name,and leadeth them out.

Nowsee how the sheep hear HIS voice. See the SHEPHERD call His sheep by NAME andHe leadeth them out... Look, HE LEADS AND THEY FOLLOW...Not HIM FORCING THEMOUT...



Joh 10:4 And when he puttethforth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for theyknow his voice.

Areyou one of them sheep yet, if not, try going younger as 7 to 10... Be one ofthose sheep. Be one of those sheep that KNOWS HIS VOICE, and then know YOU WILLONLY FOLLOW THAT VOICE...NO other.



Joh 10:5 And a stranger will theynot follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Areyou nervous and do you already know YOU WILL NOT FOLLOW ANY VOICE BUT THE ONEOF CHRIST JESUS? Are you CONVINCED that you will NOT FOLLOW A STRANGER.... YOUKNOW NOT THE VOICE OF THE STRANGER....



Joh 10:6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but theyunderstood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

Doyou understand this parable? Do you inderstand these things Jesus spoke? Do youunderstand that for me to sin I have to LISTEN TO ANOTHER VOICE.... For JESUSWILL NEVER TELL ME TO SIN? Do you understnad this? What will happen if ONESHEEP listens to the stranger... BUT HTEY WILL NOT FOR THEY KNOW NOT HISVOICE.... They KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE SHEPHERD OF THE TRUTH...



Joh 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

NowI hope you can KEEP up... Jesus said No one comes to the Father if not BYHIM... So Jesus is the DOOR of the PENN, then the PENN must be the Father, andalso the FIELD WHERE THEY GRAZE must be the FATHER’S KINGDOM.... Oh if youcannot know this, I cannot help. Or if you cannot see this ASK me I will showyou...

ThenWHO IS THE SHEPHERD? The HOLY SPIRIT (Christ Jesus) IS THE SHEPHERD.



Joh 10:8 All that ever camebefore me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

NOW!!!!Please see this my friends... Do you know who came before Jesus? I ALSO hadsome “Shepherds come before MY SHEPHERD came.... Oh they were Thieves andROBBERS that wants to STEAL ME FOR HELL! But I NEVER HEARD THEM.... NOT REALLY,I would hear them, but I will NOT FOLLOW THEM... I KNOW HIS VOICE, believe me IKNOW HIS VOICE... Do you know why the SHEEP do not hear them? God does not wantthe sheep to be at peace with them, They will ALWAYS be nervous or unsure withthem... ALWAYS.. it is part of the Shepherds Job to let them know who IS THESHEPHERD, the REAL SHEPHERD.



Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved,and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Now be a child of 12 who already MASTERED theSHEEP AND THE FOLD.... WHO KNOWS THE SHEPHERD... Jesus just said the PORTERlets men in. The Shepherd will ALWAYS ENTER in we know, FOR HE IS HOLY! Holy Spiritis HOLY... We got that when we were 7 to 10, we are now 12 and we do not haveto doubt that the HOLY SPIRIT IS HOLY, So the PORTER WILL NOT HESITATE TO LETHIM IN... But what about the THIEF, will the PORTER let him in? NEVER...So whatmen can enter into the DOOr. Only the ones that GOES THROUGH THE DOOR... So letus see who comes in and who does what...



Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not,but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might havelife, and that they might have itmore abundantly.

Ifthe thief comes to steal, kill and destroy, and Jesus come to give lifeABUNDANTLY... what is that LIFE LIKE THAT HE GIVES so ABUNDANTLY....? Let meassure you it is not the life we got in sin. IT IS HIS LIFE... A HOLY ANDPERFECT LIFE RIGHT HERE ON EARTH... Jesus does not have SIN TO GIVE...So he hasno life with sin in it to give...



Joh 10:11 I am the goodshepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Bynow all our 12 yearlolds should know this so let us move on to 14 now... LookHE GIVES HIS LIFE FOR THE SHEEP, SO THEY CAN HAVE LIFE IN ABUNDANCE... Is itsin in an sinful abundance life? OR is it HIS HOLY LIFE FOR A LIFE OF HOLINESSthat HE GIVES AND GAVE? Yep... He is aGOOD shepherd that gives a GOOD life to HIS SHEEP. Can the sheep get OUT OFTHIS LIFE WITH THE GOOD SHEPHERD? Let us see... AS 14 YEAROLDS NOW!!!



Joh 10:12 But he that is anhireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolfcoming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, andscattereth the sheep.

Not even the hirelings will stand when thewolf comes, but NOT OUR SHEPHERD... HE WILL STAY WITH US... And the SHEPHERDthat are with us, WILL NOT LET THE SHEEP BE SCATTERED... KNOW THIS you are now14, KNOW THIS!!! They will not be scattered, our Shepherd is NOT AFRAID OF THEBIG BAD WOLF...KNOW THIS.



Joh 10:13 The hireling fleeth,because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

Onlythe hirleing whose sheep are NOT HIS, will flee. And look, how can this perfectflock with life abundance be the ownership of the sinful hirelings? How can God’schildren be the posession of an earthly church? Where sinners meet forsalvation, but believeth that the life Jesus gives STILL has sin it thatlife.... WOW! Come on you are now 14, you should know JESUS DOES NOT DISH OUTSIN, nor A LIFE WITH SIN IN IT...



Joh 10:14 I am the goodshepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Webetter go to 16 now... If He is the GOOD SHEPHERD AND WE KNOW HE IS, look atthis... He knows HIS SHEEP.... And they KNOW HIM... Now a little more attentionis needed.... Jesus said HE is the Truth, and He said YOU SHALL KNOW THETRUTH,... KNOW HIM, and the TRUTH SHALL MAKE YOU FREE... Also IF I MAKE YOUFREE YOU ARE FREE INDEED! Beautiful how the Word comes together is it not....Now Jesus knows HIS, and they KNOW HIM... they ARE MADE FREE INDEED... Come all16 yearlods... To be FREE and MADE FREE BY JESUS,.. what does Jesus makes usFREE FROM... If we were once entrapped in flesh and sin and evil... Does HE NOTMAKE US FREE INDEED.. That INDEED is a powerful add to the promise... If HEMAKES free, is there ANY BONDAGE STILL ATTACHED TO US? NOPE! He can make usfree from ALL EVIL! That is why HE KNOWS US... WE ARE LIKE HIM!!!! IN NOBONDAGE TO EVIL... MADE FREE INDEED!





Joh 10:15 As the Father knowethme, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Jesus knows the Father and HE knows Hissheep, for HIS SHEEP IS HIS TO KEEP! And HE LAY DOWN HIS LIFE FOR HIS SHEEP...If he died and FATHER raised him up, SO WILL FATHER GIVE US HIS LIFE ETERNAL ASWELL!!! Jesus laid it down for HIS SHEEP so that THEY CAN RECIEVE LIFE INABUNDANCE.... HOLY LIFE IN ABUNDANCE.... HIS LIFE IS HOLY!!!! THERE IS NO SININ HIM OR HIS LIFE...



Joh 10:16 And other sheep Ihave, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hearmy voice; and there shall be one fold, andone shepherd.

Nowlet us turn 18... These sheep are ALL GENTILE NATIONS... but just like thispenn or FOLD, Jesus would bring them the SAME LIFE HE DID FOR THE OTHERSHEEP....



Joh 10:17 Therefore doth myFather love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

AHA!Now we have to be 20... If the FATHER love Jesus, because he lay down His life,and HE may take it again... Look what Jesus says about this life HE HAS TAKENTO GIVE TO HIS SHEEP....As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that heshould give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Jesushas POWER OVER ALL FLESH.... and HE CAN GIVE ETERNAL LIFE to ALL HIS SHEEP...And that life ETERNAL IS HIS LIFE.... Look what is life eternal.... TO KNOW HIM!!!!!!

Whoknows HIM? The SHEEP THAT WILL ONLY FOLLOW HIM... HIS SHEEP DOES NOT SIN... TOSIN THEY HAVE TO EITHER FOLLOW SATAN OR THEIR OLD SELF....



Joh 10:18 No man taketh it fromme, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have powerto take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

LET US BE 30 now.... I CANNOT take the life of Jesus, I CANNOT! He has to give it to me... He has the power over ALL flesh, and he willgive HIS life to all God gave Him....

YOU ARE ALL IN A CHRISTIAN SITE... I believe you are allchosen to have this LIFE... Believe God and Jesus WILL GIVE YOU THIS LIFE OFCHRIST... And let NO other angel or man or SATAN himslef tell you... YOU CANNOTHAVE THE LIFE OF CHRIST JESUS HERE ON EARTH...

God bless you.... I really mean this... GOD BLESS YOU! And He bless with the LIFE OF CHRIST... AMEN!

 

[Cobus]

Man, have you ever debated with a sabbatarian?

No need Jesus said this.... The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Mar_2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

I was not made for the Sabbath,... The sabbath was made for me, but in CHRIST I am also LORD OF THE SABBATH.

DEEP???? nope.... If I am in God's rest (Sabbath) I am in GOD'S REST ALL THE TIME.... Sabbath is not a day, IT IS A CONDITION IN GOD!!!! Man was not made for the condition, the condition was MADE FOR MAN!!!

Jesus said....l COME TO ME ALL, I WILL GIVE YOU REST... This rest is a PERMANENT CONDITION...

Jesus SHOWED us that condition... If we can make one day more holy that another day, we are not holy AT ALL... God's rest is HOLINESS, and that is a permenant REST (Sabbath) condition... If we ENTER into Gods SABBATH REST, we ARE HOLY FOREVER... N SABBATH FOREVER...

What did Jesus do different on one day than another? Was Jesus more holy on Saturday than on Wednesday? NOPE, He is the LORD OF THE SABBATH... And in HIM so AM I! At Sabbath with his ALL THE TIME!! FOREVER HOLY!!!!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Let me tell you what has happened to me since I got hit with the idea of sinless perfection. Get some popcorn.

Major anxiety, sleepless nights, periods of not being able to read the bible because all I could suddenly see in it was condemnation...texts that used to give great comfort became death sentences(it is getting better now). I didnt want to do bible study incase I 'infected' my friends with this feeling.

My thoughts became VERY selfish(still are). All I can really think about is myself. I find myself angry, not able to handle small things in life. I find myself angry with the state of Christianity. I find myself swearing again. I find myself being bitter. Situations where I used to have that supernatural peace are now unbearable. I have seen a sort of sarcasm towards God inside that really scared me.

Then my anxiety became so bad I started feeling it physically. Every ache or pain was some new illness, in my mind. I have never been a hypocondriac in my life before this. Then my doctor noticed a lump I had on my thyroid for a while now and decided to check it out. It could have been cancer. It took 3 months to find out what it was, in the meantime I was sure God was giving me cancer to kill me. It wasnt cancer. Then I got a lump on my right shin. Weird. Might be a tumor. Took a month or 2 to finally diagnose it, it was just scar tissue. Then I had spots in my mouth, might be cancer. Took 6 months to finally see it wasnt cancer. Then just last month I was in the hospital for some strange and rare disease called vasculitis. They had me quarantined and I thought I might possibly die in there...I asked myself, would I actually die in faith, in Christ, if I were to die right now? The answer I worried was no.

I would witness to people but I dont want them to be put under this burdensome feeling. I heard of the book Pilgrim's Progress which everyone raves about as though it is the most heartwarming encouraging story ever, so I began reading it but it scared me to death.

I began to only know God as a stern judge.

I cry everyday for the LORD to save me. Maybe I already am. I once thought so, I still hope so today.

What this all means, I dont know, but it is what the doctrine of sinless perfection has caused in me.

Condemnation. It only comes from one place.

There is no condemnation in Christ. So if you are experiencing condemnation, it's time to change the channel.

Condemnation is evil's power over us. Without it, satan is powerless. Condemnation is spiritual abuse. It's a codependent kind of thing. He can only condemn us if we let (enable) him.

Don't confuse the holy spirit's conviction (of sin) with the devil's condemnation.

Again. There is no condemnation in Christ.

 

[Cobus]

Condemnation. It only comes from one place.

There is no condemnation in Christ. So if you are experiencing condemnation, it's time to change the channel.

Condemnation is evil's power over us. Without it, satan is powerless. Condemnation is spiritual abuse. It's a codependent kind of thing. He can only condemn us if we let (enable) him.

Don't confuse the holy spirit's conviction (of sin) with the devil's condemnation.

Again. There is no condemnation in Christ.

I was waiting for my friends to respond to this to see if they believe thisBULLDUST... And they not only blieved it they LIKE IT...

Herose.... Condemnation is NOT something the devil creates... It is YOU assinner that GIVES H?IM THE TICKET TO CONDEMN YOU.... If the SATAN calls in hisSINCARD that YOU give him HE HAS THE RIGHT TO CONDEMN YOU...

This is where your doctrine FAILS mysrably.... God CAN forgive sin, but HECANNOT HIDE IT! Every sin God forgives YOU STOP DOING.... Then Satan has to dowhat the Bible says..... BRING IN FALSE WITNESS....

Let me ask you this..... LET US SAY I PRACTICE ONE SIN OF STEALING HERE ONEARTH.... If I DO NOT STOP STEALING, will God forgive me? NOPE, I NEVERREPENTED... So when the devil comes and say to God.... HEY GOD, YOU CANNOT TAKECOBUS. HE IS A THIEF... Does the devil bring in FALSE withness? Are myconscience CLEAN or do I KNOW I am a sinner? Hey God asked me to stop EVERYTIME I STOLE, but I did not care to listen to Him, I NEVER STOPPED.... Maybethat is why God said a thief will NEVER enter into the Kingdom...

While I was on earth, God said to me as the thief.... STOP STELING, I have thiswonderful job for you that pays well.... and ater you have bought your stuff,the money that is left you should help the less fortunate... I not only willtake stealing a way from yuo, but I will give you a GIVING heart, and I willcause you to do as I will for you.....

Please note from THIEFto WARM HEART GIVER.... Do you see that if I as Thief HAD repented the stealingwould have been replaced by God’s will?And God’s will is that ALL condemnation would BE FALSE, as HE HAS MADE MEPERFECT IN CHRIST.... ALLaccusations/condemnations/judgements/blame/sinsheets/evil/ would be FALSESTATEMENTS... NOT TRUE... A sinner is already condemned in sin... that is whyGOD HAS A WAY OUT!!! Christ Jesus is the WAY OUT...
He came to call sinners to REPENT not to HIDE,REPENT... What did Adam do when God called?.... HE HIDE... Confess is not tohide sin, it is to CONFESS WITH THE IDEA TO REPENT... STOP DOING IT SO GOD CANREMOVE IT./.... That is the truth.... Read about the thief in Eph 4:28...