Hi, thebesttrees.
Before I get to your actual questions, I'd just like to lay a little groundwork that might prove helpful to you in relation to understanding Biblical prophecy. Jesus said:
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18)
According to Jesus Christ, everything which has been written in the law and the prophets will be fulfilled some time between when it was first written up until the time that "heaven and earth pass" or up until the time of the new heaven and the new earth. With such being the case, let's first determine when the new heaven and new earth come into existence:
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." (Revelation 20:11-21:1)
Many years ago, the same prophet Isaiah whose writings we've recently been discussing, under Divine Inspiration, prophesied the following:
"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." (Isaiah 65:17)
Again:
"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain." (Isaiah 66:22)
According to the Revelation that John received from Jesus while on the isle of Patmos, this prophesied "new heavens and new earth" won't come into existence until the time of the great white throne judgment of Jesus Christ. Yes, at that time, "the heaven and the earth" which are now will "flee away from Christ's face" and there will be a new heaven and a new earth. Why am I mentioning this? Again, because according to Jesus Christ all prophecy has up until that time to be fulfilled and all prophecy, even when lumped together, doesn't necessarily all get fulfilled at the same point in time, but quite often prophecy gets fulfilled in stages. I thought today to cite from Isaiah 61 and I see that "I See You" has already done so, but I'll just quickly reiterate what she said. First, here's the prophecy from Isaiah chapter 61:
"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified." (Isaiah 61:1-3)
Now, here is what Christ cited during His Incarnation in relation to the same:
"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears." (Luke 4:16-21)
If you notice, Jesus didn't cite the entire prophecy, but when He reached the part about "preaching the acceptable year of the Lord", then He "closed the book...and began to say unto them, THIS DAY IS THIS SCRIPTURE FULFILLED in your ears". Why did Jesus "close the book"? Why didn't He read the entire prophecy before declaring that it was "fulfilled this day"? Well, He "closed the book" because prophecy, even when written together, doesn't always get fulfilled at the same exact point in time. In this case, Jesus deliberately didn't read about "the day of vengeance of our God" BECAUSE THAT DAY IS YET FUTURE. Please consider the following prophecy from the same prophet Isaiah as well:
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." (Isaiah 9:6-7)
The first part of Isaiah' prophecy pertains to Christ's birth and that is already past history, but the second part of this prophecy yet remains unfulfilled and it won't be fulfilled until the time comes that Christ returns as the prophesied "son of David" Who will sit on David's throne from within a future temple in Jerusalem from where He will govern the nations. Again, even though this appears in Isaiah as one prophecy, it actually spans over many, many years in regard to its complete fulfillment. The same principle applies in Isaiah chapter 40 and I'm really not going to rehash that simply because you can just reread my previous post on this thread where I already outlined how the context of the prophecy spans over many years with part of it being fulfilled in John the Baptist's lifetime and part of it not being fulfilled until at/after the second coming of Christ. With that introduction, I'll now briefly address your questions:
Thank you JesusistheChrist.
1. Would I be correct to say then there are two "wrath"'s in your understanding?: One which started with John the Baptist and the major one which is to happen at the time of the ultimate judgment.
2. Can you conceive of any punishment more severe than being deprived of the message of Jesus Christ?
Thank you again,
Well, first of all, God's wrath has been around since long before John the Baptist ever came on the scene, so I don't believe that God's wrath somehow "started with John the Baptist". Secondly, I don't see where anybody was "deprived of the message of Jesus Christ". John the Baptist certainly didn't "deprive" anybody of the same, but instead he pointed people to Jesus as "the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). Also, there really aren't "two wraths"...at least not in my understanding. Please consider with me the following recorded words of John the Baptist:
"Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease. He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:25-36)
Again, John the Baptist did anything but "deprive" anyone "the message of Jesus Christ". He pointed people to Christ as the Bridegroom and he knew that he must decrease that Christ must increase. Anyhow, please notice what he said in relation to God's "wrath":
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)
Now, you might read that as being a "wrath" in John's time and, to an extent, it was, but not really in the way that I think (I could be mistaken) that you're implying. IOW, even though the wrath of God presently abode on people back then, even as it does today, it still won't really be meted out until the day of God's judgment, so it is really YET FUTURE. Look, according to scripture, unbelievers (and "belief" has to do with a lot more than just some sort of "mental assent"...it's basically synonymous with OBEDIENCE in scripture) not only presently have "the wrath of God abiding on them", but they are also "children of wrath by nature":
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Ephesians 2:1-3)
Seeing how that is EVERYONE'S original condition, being "dead in trespasses and sins", Jesus said that we MUST BE BORN AGAIN. IOW, our old nature needs to be "crucified with Christ" and then "buried with Him in baptism" that we might be raised up in newness of life via the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. THIS is what makes one a Christian AND it's only the "birthing stage". IOW, simply being "born again" isn't enough...there is a life of obedience and servitude unto God our maker which needs to follow such a "new birth" and, again, such obedience and servitude is only possible via the power of the Holy Spirit. Look, I don't know what your motivation is for asking these questions, but of this much I'm sure:
THERE IS A COMING DAY OF GOD'S HOLY, RIGHTEOUS WRATH AND WE NEED TO BE PREPARED FOR IT LEST WE BE RIGHTLY "CAST INTO THE FIRE".
As such, if you have any questions as to how to truly "flee the wrath to come", even as John the Baptist forewarned of, then I'd be happy to discuss the same with you.
I am presently typing from my hotel room as I'm on a business trip and my stomach is telling me that it's time for some Chinese food (with hot mustard, of course...lol). Anyhow, I will have some more time available to me later this week if you'd like to discuss any of these things further.
Good night.
