Your posts are based on the false notion that Paul limits works to only "specific" works and that salvation is through faith "and works," just not "certain" works. I understand how you try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, just like Roman Catholics and Mormons do as well. Roman Catholics call it saved through faith "infused" with works and Restorationists call it saved through faith "conjoined" with works. Either way, works become meritorious for salvation. Human PRIDE will not allow people to let go of their works and take hold of Christ through faith.
My argument is very much alive. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5). Are works of righteousness evil works or good works? Do evil works that unbelievers produce merit for them eternal life? NO. Do good works that believers produce merit for them eternal life? NO. ANY WORKS. Saved through faith, NOT WORKS. Paul did not say saved through faith and works, so put down your shoe horn and believe God's Word.
Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. Noah did not earn his salvation by building the ark. Building the ark demonstrated and proved his faith and saved him and his family (physically) from drowning. It's interesting how in a different thread you avoided Hebrews 11:7 when discussing 1 Peter 3:21 to see what literally saved Noah and his family (the ark or the water), but now you mention it in an effort to support salvation by works.
His obedient work here was not the basis of his salvation. Read Genesis 15:5 - Then He (God) brought him (Abrahamm) outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."And he believed the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness."
No, and these works/acts of righteousness (NKJV; NAS) were not the means of their salvation either. There is a difference between being saved through faith and performing works/acts of righteousness by or out of faith. In Hebrews 11, notice in all of these occurences that it was "BY" faith, NOT faith "is" in essence all of these things. Their faith was genuine and it was proved by their actions (works). So all of these things in Hebrews 11 were done BY or out of faith, but none of these things are the essence of faith, only the evidence (fruit) of faith. That is absolutely critical to understand!
Obedient works doing/righteousness is a manifestation of faith and disobeying God/doing unrighteousness is a manifestation of unbelief.
John 6:40 - And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day. Obedient works which follow believing in Him and receiving eternal life would be of debt and not grace if they were the means of our salvation. This would mean that we are saved through faith in Christ "plus our works" which means that Christ's finished work of redemption is insufficient to save us and we must add our works to the cross in order to help Him save us. God forbid!!!
No, faith is believing and obedience which follows is WORKS. I could not grasp this truth either prior to my conversion and the blinders being removed. Attempting to be saved by obedience/works which follow faith in Christ would be works of merit if these works were the means of our salvation. You continue to confuse obey by believing (John 3:36; Romans 10:16) with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow. Paul is CONTRASTING believing in Him with works in general (Romans 4:4-6). Show me where Paul says that we are "saved by works?"
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Any work that we accomplish in an attempt to add to what Christ accomplished in order to help Him save us is trying to earn salvation, even if it's just in part. Salvation by works is not obeying God. Genuine believers obey God by practicing righteousness and not sin, yet this is not sinless perfect obedience. Unbelievers do not obey God because without faith it's impossible to please God, no matter how much so called obedience that one attempts to conjure up through the flesh (Matthew 7:22-23).
There is a difference between obeying the command of God to believe in Christ in order to receive eternal life (John 6:40; Acts 16:31) and obeying a command of God after we have been saved through believing in Him. There is a HUGE difference between what we are saved BY and what we are saved FOR (Ephesians 2:8-10).
Any works that we try and add to salvation through faith is trying to help earn salvation. If a person is not trusting exclusively in Christ to save them, then they don't truly believe in Him, but are believing in whatever works they are doing that they believe will be the basis by which they receive eternal life. Human PRIDE keeps people from coming to faith in Christ.
Someone who attends the church of Christ once told me - "It is works of obedience that help to save us, not works of the law or works of merit." Do you agree with that? If these works help save us, then there is merit in these works. You can't have it both ways. Are you beginning to understand yet?
Those that follow the man-made teaching of faith only must purposely, make effort to NOT understand Rom 4:4.
You post Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark.
Heb 11:7 says "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith"
Noah's obedience was to the saving of his house. So Noah's obedience in preparing an ark to the saving of his house earn salvation for his house? No. His saving was by grace but that grace required him to build an ark. So Paul could NOT have been talking about obedient works in Rom 4:4.
Heb 11:32,33 "And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, andof Samson, and of Jephthae; ofDavid also, and Samuel, and of the prophets. Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions."
I asked you were they trying to earn their salvation by working righteousness. You said "No" and killed your argument on Rom 4:4. You try and wiggle out of that by saying "and these works/acts of righteousness (NKJV; NAS) were not the means of their salvation either"
So they could have worked unrighteousness and been saved? Hardly. Yet their working righteousness did NOT earn them salvation eliminating obedience from the "works" of Rom 4:4 that merits the reward.
So were they trying to earn salvation by working righteousness? No. Would they have been saved if they worked unrighteousness? No.
On one hand Atwood, yourself and others want to claim when one does ANY WORKS [including obedience to God], he is trying to earn salvation. Yet not obeying God is working unrighteousness/sin/disobedience.
So is man suppose to obey and earn his salvation or disobey and be lost? If obeying God is earning salvation, and God did not want man to earn salvation, then why would God give man commands to obey? By giving man commands, God would be forcing man into a position to obey Him causing man to earn salvation.
You wiggle to get around this problem by saying "There is a difference between obeying the command of God to believe in Christ in order to receive eternal life (John 6:40; Acts 16:31) and obeying a command of God after we have been saved through believing in Him. There is a HUGE difference between what we are saved BY and what we are saved FOR (Ephesians 2:8-10)."
So the question remains, how much unrighteousness/sin/disobedience can a sinner do in order to be saved/become a Christian? How many of God's commands have to be disobeyed before one can become a Christian?
Eph 2:10 - is one who is ALREADY a Christian earning his salvation by doing those good works? No, for God's grace is what saves a Christian but that free grace requires the condition that Christian do good works, so a Christian doing good works is not making his reward of debt and not of grace.
Can a Christian NOT do good works and be saved? No, for God's grace conditionally requires good works.
Anyway you try and wiggle around it, obedience to God does not in any way make one reward of debt and not of grace.
Lk 17:10 "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do"
So when one obeys he is only do what is his duty to do. Not obeying is being derelict in one's duty leaving one lost. But even though one obeys, his obedience is not perfect making him an unprofitable servant in need of grace. Noah, Moses, Abraham, David were obedient men but none had perfect, flawless obedience for all sinned putting them in need of grace. Yet their imperfect obedience could not ever earn them salvation for they needed God's grace to cover those shortcomings.
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