Is it possible for a true Christian to one day no longer believe in God?
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I've just gotta say.. the OPs is example?
IS someone who is genuinely converted to begin with!
I believe in that person then being eternally secure.
There is no other place you can go with this if you believe in OSAS!
To all who take the calvinist position of 'a saint will persevere to the end'..
Your teaching CANNOT apply here..
The example given of someone who DID initially believe!!!!!!
For crying out quietly!
Just because someone later denies Jesus.. does NOT mean they were never saved in the first place!
Works.. having NOTHING TO DO WITH eternal salvation!!!!!!!!
Get that right!
Fruit.. will accompany salvation.. yes.. but I don't see ANYWHERE in the bible where a saved person WILL endure to the end!
again 'he who endureth to the end will be saved' quote.. isn't about eternal salvation.
(sigh)
IS someone who is genuinely converted to begin with!
I believe in that person then being eternally secure.
There is no other place you can go with this if you believe in OSAS!
To all who take the calvinist position of 'a saint will persevere to the end'..
Your teaching CANNOT apply here..
The example given of someone who DID initially believe!!!!!!
For crying out quietly!
Just because someone later denies Jesus.. does NOT mean they were never saved in the first place!
Works.. having NOTHING TO DO WITH eternal salvation!!!!!!!!
Get that right!
Fruit.. will accompany salvation.. yes.. but I don't see ANYWHERE in the bible where a saved person WILL endure to the end!
again 'he who endureth to the end will be saved' quote.. isn't about eternal salvation.
(sigh)
Well I'm glad to see even more discussion since I last stopped in. It's interesting to hear the different viewpoints among Christians and it seems as I suspected that this issue can be traced back to the old party lines of Calvinism/OSAS vs. conditional salvation.
Jason, thank you for sharing your analysis of the situation, and Word_Swordsman, I appreciate your defense in post #138. And I like your post Wattie as well.
For those that believe it's impossible to walk away and thus claim I was never saved, let me explain what you are implying here. I'm going to assume two things: 1) The Christian God exists. 2) I was never saved by God. IF those two things are true, here is what you are implying:
That would mean that as a young boy when I got on my knees and prayed to God, admitting to Him that I was a sinner in need of a savior; confessing that Jesus is Lord and that He died on the third day, according to the Scriptures, to redeem me of that sin; and vowing to live my life for Him, asking Him to come dwell inside me and walk with me through this life. If what you say is true, then that would mean when I did this, God did not choose to save me.
That would mean that as I lived out my Christian life, loving God as my best friend. Feeling convicted of my sins and praying to God for forgiveness and for guidance on how I should walk in accordance to His will. Reading his Word, worshipping Him with my tongue, delighting in praising Him. Sharing the good news with others. Loving Him. Genuinely believing that my Lord and Savior loved me as well, and His Spirit was living inside of me. Through all of this, if what you guys say is true, God never saved me. He never cared to call me His child.
To believe God would act in such a way is in complete contradiction to Scripture. Yet you have no problem conceding that. But you won't even attempt to budge on the Calvinist tenant of perseverance of the saints, one in which many fellow Christians don't even agree with. It's interesting.
After all, does not Scripture say, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart he is risen from the dead, then you shall be saved."?
Jason, thank you for sharing your analysis of the situation, and Word_Swordsman, I appreciate your defense in post #138. And I like your post Wattie as well.
For those that believe it's impossible to walk away and thus claim I was never saved, let me explain what you are implying here. I'm going to assume two things: 1) The Christian God exists. 2) I was never saved by God. IF those two things are true, here is what you are implying:
That would mean that as a young boy when I got on my knees and prayed to God, admitting to Him that I was a sinner in need of a savior; confessing that Jesus is Lord and that He died on the third day, according to the Scriptures, to redeem me of that sin; and vowing to live my life for Him, asking Him to come dwell inside me and walk with me through this life. If what you say is true, then that would mean when I did this, God did not choose to save me.
That would mean that as I lived out my Christian life, loving God as my best friend. Feeling convicted of my sins and praying to God for forgiveness and for guidance on how I should walk in accordance to His will. Reading his Word, worshipping Him with my tongue, delighting in praising Him. Sharing the good news with others. Loving Him. Genuinely believing that my Lord and Savior loved me as well, and His Spirit was living inside of me. Through all of this, if what you guys say is true, God never saved me. He never cared to call me His child.
To believe God would act in such a way is in complete contradiction to Scripture. Yet you have no problem conceding that. But you won't even attempt to budge on the Calvinist tenant of perseverance of the saints, one in which many fellow Christians don't even agree with. It's interesting.
After all, does not Scripture say, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart he is risen from the dead, then you shall be saved."?
K
And again by stating this last sentence of saying enduring to the end isn't about eternal salvation, denies Hebrews 10:36
"For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised."
The promise is eternal life and Hebrews clearly shows that after enduring to the end by doing the will of God will we receive it.
If you continue to make Matthew 10:22 not about salvation, but only about saving them out of persecutions and trials then you would have to reject the history of what happened to the Apostles and you also would have to reject John 15:18-25.
Peter- crucified upside down
Paul- beheaded
Matthew- slain by a halberd
John- exiled on Patmos
James- put to deat by the sword by Herod Agrippa ( Acts 12:2 )
Andrew- crucified by Roman Governor, Aegeas( Aegeates )
{ bound not nailed to cross to prolong suffering }
Bartholomew- beaten with rods and then beheaded
James, son of Alpheus- beaten, stoned, then clubbed to death
Thomas- thrust through with spears, tortured with red hot plates, and then burned alive.
Philip- tortured, stoned, crucified upside down
Simon- crucified and/or sawed in half
Judas Thaddeus- beaten to death in Mesopotamia
Judas- committed suicide for betraying Jesus
Matthias- (replaced Judas) stoned to death
Wait.. Hebrews is in a different context to matthew. So it isnt a direct correlation there. It is the verses that surround the matthew quote i mean.
The other thing is, if you kenneth believe salvation can be lossed, why accept ANY calvinist teaching? I know of very few calvinists who would believe salvation can be undone.
Aside from that yes those apostles did die for their belief. They did endure. But that doesn't mean every believer in those times did.
Now if you are saying God didnt deliver them from their trials and so i am wrong, again it is a different context.
The other thing is, if you kenneth believe salvation can be lossed, why accept ANY calvinist teaching? I know of very few calvinists who would believe salvation can be undone.
Aside from that yes those apostles did die for their belief. They did endure. But that doesn't mean every believer in those times did.
Now if you are saying God didnt deliver them from their trials and so i am wrong, again it is a different context.
Salvation is entirely of a life of faith, not some metaphysical or physiological change, or rearrangement of the brain. It doesn't mean a scientist could examine our DNA to discover that a saved person is a different creature with cellular modification. Many people believe God has so permanently changed their entire being that they are incapable of reverting back to their former self, losing relationship with God, but there's no support for that. It is true that upon being "born again" people will likely detect a major change, but it is your attitude, outlook, freshness of thinking, intolerance of sin, etc., all of which can change back to earlier states shared by the lost.
Being "born again" is the most significant decision one can make in this life, which is simply agreeing with God, then accepting the thinking of the word of God. It is realized through confession of the mind of Christ, changing how we respond to God. The whole of it is our responsibility to respond to invitation from the Father God to embrace his Son Jesus. His responsibility is to embrace us, never being the one to turn loose. But each of us is capable of wresting ourselves out of that relationship, upon forsaking faith. We can simply walk away, even choose another god, or no god at all. Many do that, and probably soon most in the world will do that, even some seasoned Christians.
From your testimony it is obvious you were in fact being saved. But being saved isn't properly understood if comparing that to something like having "arrived" upon earning a PhD so you can go on to a full career. Being saved is a day by day benefit for having faith toward God.
For whatever reason, walking away in disbelief, forsaking faith, isn't spiritual suicide unless one remains departed to the end of life, certainly a case by case issue between you and God concerning how far a person does depart, i.e. blasphemy of the Holy Spirit before end of life. If there is life, there is hope. Peter was warned by Jesus he would deny Jesus three times that very night, despite Peter's assurance he never would. But we know Jesus warmly welcomed Peter back upon his repentance.
Like Peter, so self confident and like so many of us today, we are all subject to the same failures, and the Lord knows that.
Remember the father in the prodigal son parable in Luke 15. The foolish son departed. Family didn't seek to rescue him, but his father held out hope the boy would return. He didn't hit the road searching, but watched hoping, then ran to greet him, totally resuming the former relationship. The boy was the same boy, but the young feller had changed his mind back to conform to the father's.
Return home. You know the way.
Being "born again" is the most significant decision one can make in this life, which is simply agreeing with God, then accepting the thinking of the word of God. It is realized through confession of the mind of Christ, changing how we respond to God. The whole of it is our responsibility to respond to invitation from the Father God to embrace his Son Jesus. His responsibility is to embrace us, never being the one to turn loose. But each of us is capable of wresting ourselves out of that relationship, upon forsaking faith. We can simply walk away, even choose another god, or no god at all. Many do that, and probably soon most in the world will do that, even some seasoned Christians.
From your testimony it is obvious you were in fact being saved. But being saved isn't properly understood if comparing that to something like having "arrived" upon earning a PhD so you can go on to a full career. Being saved is a day by day benefit for having faith toward God.
For whatever reason, walking away in disbelief, forsaking faith, isn't spiritual suicide unless one remains departed to the end of life, certainly a case by case issue between you and God concerning how far a person does depart, i.e. blasphemy of the Holy Spirit before end of life. If there is life, there is hope. Peter was warned by Jesus he would deny Jesus three times that very night, despite Peter's assurance he never would. But we know Jesus warmly welcomed Peter back upon his repentance.
Like Peter, so self confident and like so many of us today, we are all subject to the same failures, and the Lord knows that.
Remember the father in the prodigal son parable in Luke 15. The foolish son departed. Family didn't seek to rescue him, but his father held out hope the boy would return. He didn't hit the road searching, but watched hoping, then ran to greet him, totally resuming the former relationship. The boy was the same boy, but the young feller had changed his mind back to conform to the father's.
Return home. You know the way.
Thanks for this response. It was very though-provoking. I especially agree with that first sentence you posted. I think some people, specifically Calvinists, believe that when the Holy Spirit enters us, it possesses us, preventing us from doing certain things (falling away, etc.) and preventing us from making decisions that logically someone should be able to make of free will. I think Scripture doesn't paint the Spirit this way. Scripture refers to it more as a helper and a guide, it will convict us of wrongdoing but not force us to do or not do something.
There is definitely a division in the church on whether salvation is a definite act (you are saved hereon out, it is a completed act) or a progressive act (you are being saved through your faith, it is an ongoing process). Arguments can be made for either side and each has it's Scriptural support.
But I do have one question for you about God's judgment for those who believe in progressive salvation. Why is there such an emphasis on your spiritual state at the moment of your death? Let me explain what I mean. We all agree that God is an eternal being, always existed and always will exist. Because of this, God exists outside of time, in fact, He is credited with the creation of time. We as humans obviously are bound by time, so we only experience life in a chronological fashion. But to assume that this is the only way God views us would be putting limits on his eternal nature.
What I'm getting at is. As far as our eternal destination, why does our spiritual state at the moment of death matter more than our spiritual state at any other time in our life? Does everything we were or did before we die not matter at all to God, only who we are and where we are spiritually at death's single moment? It just kind of makes God out to be a bit petty and impersonal. Like Scripture makes it out that God wants this relationship with us and to walk through life with us. But come judgment day, God is going to just treat everybody like strangers and just look at where they were spiritually at the moment of death and not look any further than that? If I died today, will my 17 year old self, a strong believer in Christ, be punished for the beliefs of my 26 year old self? When standing before God, will what I believe now be all that defines who I was? I know it's weird to look at it that way, but when you stop seeing time as linear, the scenarios are endless.
Using the example of the prodigal son, even when the son was away, do you not think the father still loved him and considered him a son? If not, why would he be running and weeping the second he sees his son again? Unless your saying he loved his son, then stopped loving him when he was away, then suddenly loved him again when he came back. I guess the problem with conditional love like that is that it's a bit impersonal and a bit hollow. "I love you if" will never be as strong of a love as "I love you regardless"
There is definitely a division in the church on whether salvation is a definite act (you are saved hereon out, it is a completed act) or a progressive act (you are being saved through your faith, it is an ongoing process). Arguments can be made for either side and each has it's Scriptural support.
But I do have one question for you about God's judgment for those who believe in progressive salvation. Why is there such an emphasis on your spiritual state at the moment of your death? Let me explain what I mean. We all agree that God is an eternal being, always existed and always will exist. Because of this, God exists outside of time, in fact, He is credited with the creation of time. We as humans obviously are bound by time, so we only experience life in a chronological fashion. But to assume that this is the only way God views us would be putting limits on his eternal nature.
What I'm getting at is. As far as our eternal destination, why does our spiritual state at the moment of death matter more than our spiritual state at any other time in our life? Does everything we were or did before we die not matter at all to God, only who we are and where we are spiritually at death's single moment? It just kind of makes God out to be a bit petty and impersonal. Like Scripture makes it out that God wants this relationship with us and to walk through life with us. But come judgment day, God is going to just treat everybody like strangers and just look at where they were spiritually at the moment of death and not look any further than that? If I died today, will my 17 year old self, a strong believer in Christ, be punished for the beliefs of my 26 year old self? When standing before God, will what I believe now be all that defines who I was? I know it's weird to look at it that way, but when you stop seeing time as linear, the scenarios are endless.
Using the example of the prodigal son, even when the son was away, do you not think the father still loved him and considered him a son? If not, why would he be running and weeping the second he sees his son again? Unless your saying he loved his son, then stopped loving him when he was away, then suddenly loved him again when he came back. I guess the problem with conditional love like that is that it's a bit impersonal and a bit hollow. "I love you if" will never be as strong of a love as "I love you regardless"
Yes, the Holy Spirit in us is our closest ally, our heavenly shepherd, and we are his temple. We are not puppets, but supposed to follow the word of God as reinforced by the Spirit towards doing our individual assignments of doing God's will.
Rather than thinking of it as a process, I prefer it being a day to day steady personal relationship with the Lord, whether I learn something new or not, whether I accomplish anything significant. I enjoy his being there every day, 24/7, especially if I hear from him. There's tremendous peace knowing I am right now as justidied before God by being in Christ as when I first believed, and will be equally justified the day I pass out of this body. As a result of that vital relationship of mostly listening through his word, I am regularly sanctified, which itself is a progressive process, by that being holy as he is holy, entirely by his leadership and timing.
i hope they answer. I believe Jesus cherishes every moment he spent with his disciples, even when they failed. Surely he will remember us too.
I will encourage believers to trust they are justified, accepted as holy, all our lives based upon unyielding faith. It's not that he credits us only for high-faith days, but that God will smile when we meet face to face because of faith, making me the friend of God like Abraham is. Then I'll know there's a reward for me when I stand before Jesus, at the conclusion of faith, be that great or small in my days.
That daddy loved that son regardless of what he did. God loves everyone as a very son. But it is sin that that separates people from holy God. He can't compromise his holiness regardless of his love for the sinners. He has gone far beyond what any parent could or would do to save us. We need to be satisfied that he receives a repentant sinner, having first loved each of us.
The parable of the prodigal son is one of a series of three parables that should be taught together, like Jesus did. The challenge was from the Pharisees, questioning Jesus' receiving of sinners and eating with them, in verse 2. Not only Pharisees find fault in that, but so do lots of religious folks today. The first example of lost and found was with sheep. It was understood that sheep can't be left on their own like cattle, usually congregating daily at a place regularly fed. When they are lost, they require rescue. Sinners are reckoned like sheep in that way, but are not sheep, but humans. The main lesson is that God values lives, will do what is necessary to save the lost. He sent Jesus. Sinners then come to the cross.
The second example is the lost coin. Coins can't get up and return to the owner, requiring an effort to save. Jesus did that. All heaven rejoices when the lost is found and safe.
The third is of the young man who had come of age and was eligible to receive his portion of inheritance. Here parents die, then children inherit. The father watched the young man (boy by our standard) take his and run with it. He let him go. So will God let his child depart after greatly blessing them. He must because he is God of choices.
Deuteronomy 30:19-20 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
[SUP]20 [/SUP] That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
There are many examples of such choices presented to people.
I hope anyone reading this realizes that creator God loves them regardless of what we've done with life so far. We all must understand that God hates sin, judged sin in the flesh and blood of his only begotten Son Jesus. Jesus came to deliver us from the captivity of sin and the Devil, to live in righteousness, to be holy as God is holy, saved by grace through faith. Grace is the foreordained, predetermined plan of God before man was made, which plan established by promises he will not rescind. We change from serving Satan to serving God by faith. We learn what is of faith, knowing by that we please God. It means to forsake sin day by day, sin by sin. Sins we never even dreamed of will come up in our faces, but we will no longer be captured by it like before believing on Jesus. It's all possible because of God's love for us.
Unlike the sheep and the coin, the lost son had responsibility to go to the father, repenting of his sin. Having submitted to that the lost son was reconciled, counted as an equal son with the brother that didn't depart. Now that seems to me the hard part should I have been the son that stayed. But once we understand the father's action, we get a glimpse of how much God does love us.
He is waiting, will welcome all lost sinners coming to the lifted up Son Jesus. Come all you that will.
Rather than thinking of it as a process, I prefer it being a day to day steady personal relationship with the Lord, whether I learn something new or not, whether I accomplish anything significant. I enjoy his being there every day, 24/7, especially if I hear from him. There's tremendous peace knowing I am right now as justidied before God by being in Christ as when I first believed, and will be equally justified the day I pass out of this body. As a result of that vital relationship of mostly listening through his word, I am regularly sanctified, which itself is a progressive process, by that being holy as he is holy, entirely by his leadership and timing.
i hope they answer. I believe Jesus cherishes every moment he spent with his disciples, even when they failed. Surely he will remember us too.
I will encourage believers to trust they are justified, accepted as holy, all our lives based upon unyielding faith. It's not that he credits us only for high-faith days, but that God will smile when we meet face to face because of faith, making me the friend of God like Abraham is. Then I'll know there's a reward for me when I stand before Jesus, at the conclusion of faith, be that great or small in my days.
That daddy loved that son regardless of what he did. God loves everyone as a very son. But it is sin that that separates people from holy God. He can't compromise his holiness regardless of his love for the sinners. He has gone far beyond what any parent could or would do to save us. We need to be satisfied that he receives a repentant sinner, having first loved each of us.
The parable of the prodigal son is one of a series of three parables that should be taught together, like Jesus did. The challenge was from the Pharisees, questioning Jesus' receiving of sinners and eating with them, in verse 2. Not only Pharisees find fault in that, but so do lots of religious folks today. The first example of lost and found was with sheep. It was understood that sheep can't be left on their own like cattle, usually congregating daily at a place regularly fed. When they are lost, they require rescue. Sinners are reckoned like sheep in that way, but are not sheep, but humans. The main lesson is that God values lives, will do what is necessary to save the lost. He sent Jesus. Sinners then come to the cross.
The second example is the lost coin. Coins can't get up and return to the owner, requiring an effort to save. Jesus did that. All heaven rejoices when the lost is found and safe.
The third is of the young man who had come of age and was eligible to receive his portion of inheritance. Here parents die, then children inherit. The father watched the young man (boy by our standard) take his and run with it. He let him go. So will God let his child depart after greatly blessing them. He must because he is God of choices.
Deuteronomy 30:19-20 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
[SUP]20 [/SUP] That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
There are many examples of such choices presented to people.
I hope anyone reading this realizes that creator God loves them regardless of what we've done with life so far. We all must understand that God hates sin, judged sin in the flesh and blood of his only begotten Son Jesus. Jesus came to deliver us from the captivity of sin and the Devil, to live in righteousness, to be holy as God is holy, saved by grace through faith. Grace is the foreordained, predetermined plan of God before man was made, which plan established by promises he will not rescind. We change from serving Satan to serving God by faith. We learn what is of faith, knowing by that we please God. It means to forsake sin day by day, sin by sin. Sins we never even dreamed of will come up in our faces, but we will no longer be captured by it like before believing on Jesus. It's all possible because of God's love for us.
Unlike the sheep and the coin, the lost son had responsibility to go to the father, repenting of his sin. Having submitted to that the lost son was reconciled, counted as an equal son with the brother that didn't depart. Now that seems to me the hard part should I have been the son that stayed. But once we understand the father's action, we get a glimpse of how much God does love us.
He is waiting, will welcome all lost sinners coming to the lifted up Son Jesus. Come all you that will.
OK, rather than answer individuals about those parables, I'll put it this way. I think debating about how or whether God saves sinners can easily put some folks in the company of those Pharisees. We don't benefit by thinking their way on this. If they would agree that rejoicing is in order over someone finding their lost sheep, if they would agree it is reasonable for neighbors to rejoice when the lost coin is found, they ought to rejoice when a lost sinner is found. It's what Jesus is about! In modern thinking we all can be happy together when our strayed pet is found and returned home. We will gladly join a celebration for a friend whose lost employment is restored. So why not be glad when a formerly active Christian returns from years of drunkenness and drug addiction, bearing some felonies, repenting with tears and joy, resuming life in Christ? We'll observe his fruit, encouraging along his way.
What remains between that person and God is for those two to deal with. As for us, why refuse to accept such a lost then found child of God as easily as a hardened sinner who has all his life rejected Christ, at last yielding in faith believing? The time for great sorrow and sense of loss is when anyone goes to their grave in rebellion against God, not when they find their way back home in Christ. So we ought not be like that brother who was offended, or those Pharisees who were too quick to judge sinners.
What remains between that person and God is for those two to deal with. As for us, why refuse to accept such a lost then found child of God as easily as a hardened sinner who has all his life rejected Christ, at last yielding in faith believing? The time for great sorrow and sense of loss is when anyone goes to their grave in rebellion against God, not when they find their way back home in Christ. So we ought not be like that brother who was offended, or those Pharisees who were too quick to judge sinners.