Ok I have one scripture for the sinless

[Hepzibah]

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Skinski do you think there is a difference between righteous and holy?

 

[Hepzibah]

you don't sin? I don't get it your saying it's possible for one to not ever sin to be sinless yet at the same time it is possible to sin? that doesn't fit, if one can be without sin and not sin at all then it cannot be possible to be able to sin because if it can happen it will happen. sinning is even in your thoughts are you saying you have such great control over all your thoughts you human nature and weakness that you no longer sin in any way?

I said it is possible to fall from that state. There is a step between where a man begins to lean on his own understanding and that leads to a fall and he sins and is no longer perfect. Yes it is a state where there are no evil thoughts or rather any thoughts that are against the will of God because the thoughts come from the heart and a pure heart produces holy thoughts.

 

[Skinski7]

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

We know that whosoever is born of God does not sin.

Of course there is a distinction between "sin unto death" which is this...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Sin unto death = disobedience unto unrighteousness = rebellion.

There is a distinction between rebellion and sins of ignorance. There is no remaining sacrifice for rebellion because the blood of Christ is supposed to bring us into a pure state and therefore to return to iniquity is to negate the cleansing wrought by the blood.

The saints of God do not commit willful sin. None! If they do they have turned away from God and fallen back into condemnation and such a thing is very dangerous because a second repentance may not be possible due to the rebellion being from a state of full knowledge, such an act of rebellion is very ruinous for the heart, hence the severe warnings in the Bible.

Those under the false salvation message being preached generally cannot perceive such things because to them salvation is purely positional for it is disconnected in their minds from the condition of their hearts.

 

[Hepzibah]

Those under the false salvation message being preached generally cannot perceive such things because to them salvation is purely positional for it is disconnected in their minds from the condition of their hearts.

Amen! So true.

 

[Jeff_56]

abba's shalom in yahshua, freedom from sin and from all the counsequences of sin) to you and your household Blain.

you won't find a good and unifying answer on this forum(as you have seen already).

but you will find a true and simple answer in jesus. when you pray to the father, pray all the time, let your life be a prayer every day and every night and every breath.

as you pray to the father in heaven and abide in jesus all the time(not just some of the time), and as HIS WORD ABIDES IN YOU,

as you find JOY IN UNION WITH GOD in YAHSHUA, you will also find

that no sin remains unilluminated and that no sin remains undealt with. GOD deals with you as you seek HIM,
(as you know already from your life(as your posts say, and GOD bears witness also) and in line with GOD'S FOR WORD) ...

so, while the answer for other people may not be satisfactory,

for yourself REJOICE IN UNION IN JESUS now, today, and every day,

and LET HIM DEAL WITH ANY SIN. HE's good at it, HE's capable, and HE KNOWS what to do.(it's HIS JOB GIVEN HIM BY YAHWEH THE CREATOR after all!!!!)

Yes I know we have enough of these threads already but I really want to get to the core of this whole being sinless debate going around the forums.

I have one scripture to present to you and I want your honest opinion as to what it means, if you wish to present scripture to counter I ask that you first answer my scripture and then I will do my best to answer yours.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

 

[Skinski7]

Skinski do you think there is a difference between righteous and holy?

Yes.

Righteousness pertains to doing the right things from the heart especially in the context of having been granted a reprieve for past misconduct. Thus being declared righteous by God is an act of grace where, in His mercy, He has been willing to overlook our past transgression (as well as any present errors).

Holy I think is simply an allusion to being set apart from corruption and is thus a more general descriptive term.

 

[Skinski7]

Here is a good illustration Hepzibah...

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

We see here that righteousness is rooted in "heart attitude" whilst holiness is more a descriptive term of where that heart attitude will lead. Hence the need to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ to maturity.

 

[Hepzibah]

Yes.

Righteousness pertains to doing the right things from the heart especially in the context of having been granted a reprieve for past misconduct. Thus being declared righteous by God is an act of grace where, in His mercy, He has been willing to overlook our past transgression.

Holy I think is simply an allusion to being set apart from corruption and is thus a more general descriptive term.

Thanks. I think that it means that a righteous man is one who desires to do right but fails at times but a holy man is walking as holy as Christ walked ie obedient in every way. Might change this though.

 

[Hepzibah]

to righteousness unto holiness

I take this as meaning it is a step towards holiness.

We see here that righteousness is rooted in "heart attitude" whilst holiness is more a descriptive term of where that heart attitude will lead. Hence the need to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ to maturity.

Yes I think we are on the same page

 

[Blain]

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

We know that whosoever is born of God does not sin.

Of course there is a distinction between "sin unto death" which is this...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Sin unto death = disobedience unto unrighteousness = rebellion.

There is a distinction between rebellion and sins of ignorance. There is no remaining sacrifice for rebellion because the blood of Christ is supposed to bring us into a pure state and therefore to return to iniquity is to negate the cleansing wrought by the blood.

The saints of God do not commit willful sin. None! If they do they have turned away from God and fallen back into condemnation and such a thing is very dangerous because a second repentance may not be possible due to the rebellion being from a state of full knowledge, such an act of rebellion is very ruinous for the heart, hence the severe warnings in the Bible.

Those under the false salvation message being preached generally cannot perceive such things because to them salvation is purely positional for it is disconnected in their minds from the condition of their hearts.

So then the scripture that I posted that says if anyone claims to be without sin the truth is not in them, are to to completely ignore it?

 

[Skinski7]

Thanks. I think that it means that a righteous man is one who desires to do right but fails at times but a holy man is walking as holy as Christ walked ie obedient in every way. Might change this though.

I agree completely.

The Bible does say...

Pro 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

The context are sins of ignorance versus sins of rebellion. The wicked do mischief because their heart if full of guile/deceit. A parallel we find where Paul quotes David...

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Psa 32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Those whom God declares righteous have no guile in their heart/spirit, ie. pure hearts.

We read in Hebrews...

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Many twist the above passage and present it in the context of "willful sin" when it is actually speaking of sins of ignorance. We are not to despise the correction that brings growth. Hence obedience unto righteousness, righteousness unto holiness, the end of which is everlasting life.

 

[Hepzibah]

So then the scripture that I posted that says if anyone claims to be without sin the truth is not in them, are to to completely ignore it?

In post number 50, I gave an expository study on the relevent verses which explains the position of those who believe in sinlessness. Am I to assume thereby that you are not interested in seeking the truth as you have not addressed it yet and said where you disagree?

 

[Hepzibah]

We are not to despise the correction that brings growth. Hence obedience unto righteousness, righteousness unto holiness, the end of which is everlasting life.

Ah yes. thanks for that. Good to meet believers who agree

 

[Jeff_56]

the so-called 'expository' might not be so accurate since you don't know what holy means...

 

[Blain]

In post number 50, I gave an expository study on the relevent verses which explains the position of those who believe in sinlessness. Am I to assume thereby that you are not interested in seeking the truth as you have not addressed it yet and said where you disagree?

Sorry I must have missed it I will go check it out

 

[Skinski7]

So then the scripture that I posted that says if anyone claims to be without sin the truth is not in them, are to to completely ignore it?

You are being dishonest Blain.

You know very well I did not completely ignore it.

You also know very well that I did not compel anyone else to ignore it either.

I plainly stated what the verse means by showing its context. You have simply ignored my explanation and then twisted that into an claim of "ignoring it." That is blatant dishonesty on your part.

How many times do I have to say that 1Joh 1:8 is presented within the context of coming clean with God?

The same context as this verse...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

To claim we have no sin is to cover our sin. The Bible teaches we are to approach God with a TRUE HEART in order to be cleansed.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

True - alēthinos
From G227; truthful: - true.

Hebrews 10:22 even speaks of a cleansing, a sprinkling. Hebrews chapter 9 speaks of how it is the blood which sprinkles and purifies the vessels being offered to God. We are the living sacrifice being offered to God in repentance and faith upon the Mercy Seat whereby we are made pure by the blood of Jesus. This is what John is speaking of and John is making it very clear that one cannot partake of this cleansing less they come clean about their sin.

John is contending against the Gnosticism which was prevalent at the time. The Gnostics associated sinning with the flesh body itself and thus taught that the sin could never stop whilst one remained in a flesh body (the same thing you believe). The Gnostics taught that salvation was of a positional application due to the "sin you will and sin you must" belief they held (the same thing you believe). John refuted this by teaching that we have to WALK in the light as He is in the light (ie. sin has to be forsaken) in order for us to be cleansed of ALL sin and ALL unrighteousness. We cannot come before God seeking reconciliation whilst hiding our offenses. We have to admit we have sinned against God.

Hence if we say we have no sin we are liars and the truth is not in us. No individual who has been through the reconciliation process can claim they have no sin. We have all sinned. I have sin to my account. We all do.

John is not teaching "sin you will and sin you must" which is what you are implying he is teaching. You can only imply that teaching by snipping that verse out of its context and by ignoring everything else John wrote.

The same John that wrote 1Joh 1:8 also wrote...

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Jesus told people to "go and sin no more."

None of this is complicated. The Bible presents to us a harmonious message, here a little and there a little. The Bible is not a book of proof texts to be isolated and stripped of their context. Those who treat is as such do so to their own peril.

It is the pure in heart who will see God. You had better do what is necessary to make sure your own heart is pure Blain. There is really nothing else I can say to you. This is not rocket science.

 

[Blain]

We must not wrest this verse out of the context of the book, as Jason has said, and the chapter in which it is written if we want to understand John. 1John was written to counteract the heresy which was affecting the church (and still is) and was a treatise for Christians in general as there is no mention of a specific church.

The apostle is declaring to the whole world, his disapprobation of the doctrines maintained by the Gnostics who taught that Jesus was by birth a mere man but that 'the Christ' descended on Him at His baptism. In order to understand the epistle we must ask ourselves the following questions, Why did John give these admonitions? Why did he repeat them frequently? Why has he admonished if he thought admonition necessary, merely in general terms and brotherly love?


The Gnostics, who taught that man could be righteous in spirit and still sin in the flesh, (which is nowadays recognised as 'imputed righteousness' contended that the apostles had added commandments not given by Christ concerning the doctrine of sanctification. John devotes the greatest part of his epistle to the confirmation and enforcement of his doctrine.


The basis of this error i.e. that a believer can still be in Christ and sin was made popular and spread through the church by Augustine who has spread this heresy throughout the Protestant and Catholic Church since.


If we look at verses 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 in chapter 1,


If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth.


7, But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from ALL sin


(BUT)


8, If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us


(BUT)


9, If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.


(BUT)


10, If we say that we have not sinned we make Him a liar and His Word is not in us


We can see that John is comparing walking in the light to walking in darkness ie walking in the flesh compared to walking in the Spirit. He is describing two different opposing state which corresponds perfectly with the teaching of the Apostle Paul when he talks about 'carnal' or fleshy believers against those who were walking in the Spirit.. In verses 7 and 9, John says that the benefit of walking in the light are:-


1)We have fellowship with one another in the unity of the Spirit (agreement)
2)By confessing our sins we will be forgiven
3)We will then be cleansed by the blood of Jesus from all unrighteousness and sin.


Whereas if we walk in the flesh:-


1)We are deceived and remain in our sin
2)There is no truth in us
3)We make God a liar by denying our need for forgiveness.


So John is saying that it is only when we are walking in the darkness that we are blind to our need of coming to Christ for His cleansing from ALL sin. The letter is to believers and not un-believers as stated previously. And believers can fall into the error of walking in the flesh as Paul demonstrated to the Galatians who thought that they could go on to maturity or perfection through the works of the law and not through faith.


Those who were being misled by the Gnosticism and today by the preachers of 'positional righteousness' were walking in darkness because they were still sinning and did not see their need of the cleansing which can be provided by Christ alone. So they thought that they had no sin nature to be dealt with and were acceptable as they were, but John says that they walk in darkness. But if we see our need for cleansing from ALL sin and come to Christ (again) for forgiveness, then He will be able to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness (not just the sin in question please note) So it is these ones who are saying wrongly that they have no sin not the ones who have come to Christ and HAVE been cleansed from ALL unrighteousness.


John goes on in the rest of his epistle to show that those who do carry on in sin (but say they have no further need of cleansing) are NOT in CHRIST. He stresses his point against the Gnostic heresy Little children let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous 3:7 and this is the test i.e. as He is righteous so must we be not just in position or as a hope for the future but as a present reality that we must be as Christ, without sin if we are walking in the light.


But whoso keepth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected 2:5


My little children these things I write unto you that ye sin not 2:1


Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not whosoever sinneth not hath not seen Him neither known Him 3:6


He that commiteth sin is of the devil 3:8


Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin 3:9

lol info overload. Sorry you will have to forgive me due to my brain damage my mind cannot take in and comprehend a lot of info at a time, could you explain this in a simpler way for me?

 

[Blain]

You are being dishonest Blain.

You know very well I did not completely ignore it.

You also know very well that I did not compel anyone else to ignore it either.

I plainly stated what the verse means by showing its context. You have simply ignored my explanation and then twisted that into an claim of "ignoring it." That is blatant dishonesty on your part.

How many times do I have to say that 1Joh 1:8 is presented within the context of coming clean with God?

The same context as this verse...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

To claim we have no sin is to cover our sin. The Bible teaches we are to approach God with a TRUE HEART in order to be cleansed.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

True - alēthinos
From G227; truthful: - true.

Hebrews 10:22 even speaks of a cleansing, a sprinkling. Hebrews chapter 9 speaks of how it is the blood which sprinkles and purifies the vessels being offered to God. We are the living sacrifice being offered to God in repentance and faith upon the Mercy Seat whereby we are made pure by the blood of Jesus. This is what John is speaking of and John is making it very clear that one cannot partake of this cleansing less they come clean about their sin.

John is contending against the Gnosticism which was prevalent at the time. The Gnostics associated sinning with the flesh body itself and thus taught that the sin could never stop whilst one remained in a flesh body (the same thing you believe). The Gnostics taught that salvation was of a positional application due to the "sin you will and sin you must" belief they held (the same thing you believe). John refuted this by teaching that we have to WALK in the light as He is in the light (ie. sin has to be forsaken) in order for us to be cleansed of ALL sin and ALL unrighteousness. We cannot come before God seeking reconciliation whilst hiding our offenses. We have to admit we have sinned against God.

Hence if we say we have no sin we are liars and the truth is not in us. No individual who has been through the reconciliation process can claim they have no sin. We have all sinned. I have sin to my account. We all do.

John is not teaching "sin you will and sin you must" which is what you are implying he is teaching. You can only imply that teaching by snipping that verse out of its context and by ignoring everything else John wrote.

The same John that wrote 1Joh 1:8 also wrote...

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Jesus told people to "go and sin no more."

None of this is complicated. The Bible presents to us a harmonious message, here a little and there a little. The Bible is not a book of proof texts to be isolated and stripped of their context. Those who treat is as such do so to their own peril.

It is the pure in heart who will see God. You had better do what is necessary to make sure your own heart is pure Blain. There is really nothing else I can say to you. This is not rocket science.

It seems you misunderstood me which is actually my fault, I didn't mean that you literally ignore it I meant are we to ignore what these words are saying. I would love to keep going but my mind is fried i can't think straight so I will have to take my leave

 

[Skinski7]

lol info overload. Sorry you will have to forgive me due to my brain damage my mind cannot take in and comprehend a lot of info at a time, could you explain this in a simpler way for me?

Don't be in a rush to understand something.

Be patient and take your time going through it step by step. This is not an intellectual exercise but a spiritual one.

If your heart is sincere God will reveal everything you need to know. If there is an ulterior motive then God will not.

Just be truthful and diligent in seeking reality.

 

[Skinski7]

There is only one reality and that reality is not subject to our opinions. Our opinions must be subject to reality hence the need to be poor in spirit and humble. We have to all be willing to yield to whatever truth we may find, no matter what it costs us.

This is why Jesus taught that in order to live we have to die. We have to forsake this life and yield our hearts to the ultimate life. If we love this world with its associated toys, wisdom, philosophy, opinions etc. we will be destroyed along with it.

Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. We have to abide in Him and that means DOING and BELIEVING that which He taught, His doctrine.