I will speaks as a laymen. Jesus prayed to what. He was baptised with what. Jesus said the father is me and I in the Father. He also, said if you have seen me you have seen the Father. They are they same. Yet in three persons. We see the person of the son in the Gospel. We also see in acts and others that the Holy Spirit can be grieved and He speaks. Attributes of a person. Not to mention that Jesus is the lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world. We don't realise what it cost heaven for us to have salvation.
Oneness
- Thread starter Chesed
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I will speaks as a laymen. Jesus prayed to what. He was baptised with what. Jesus said the father is me and I in the Father. He also, said if you have seen me you have seen the Father. They are they same. Yet in three persons. We see the person of the son in the Gospel. We also see in acts and others that the Holy Spirit can be grieved and He speaks. Attributes of a person. Not to mention that Jesus is the lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world. We don't realise what it cost heaven for us to have salvation.
I used a capital Person, not a small case "person". I think you misunderstand me. The Holy Spirit is a Person, the Bible calls the Holy Spirit a "he". On Earth, Jesus had the form of a human but was God.
John 15:26 NIV
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
Again some may not understand this, but I hope that God reveals it to them.
John 15:26 NIV
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
Again some may not understand this, but I hope that God reveals it to them.
L
You continue to speak with opinions. Proverbs 14:12; There is a way which seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
I will let the Word speak for itself. I have included your Trinity dogma; "The Nicene Creed", for your reference. This is your sects non-laymen text of beliefs.
John 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Was this the Father speaking, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit? please explain. Then explain how is it that in the 10th verse Jesus is in the Father? I can understand the Father being in Him since the Father is spirit, Jesus doesn't mention where the Holy Spirit is.
Let us consider the 12th verse:
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
If the Father is in Jesus and Jesus in the Father, why is He going unto the Father so that his followers can do greater works than He performed? Jesus clearly stated that the Father was in him. Please explain or anyone else that seems to have a clear understanding according to trinitarianism.
The Nicene Creed
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
The statement concerning "being of one substance", what is this substance that your dogma is referring to.
I appreciate any and all responses.
I will let the Word speak for itself. I have included your Trinity dogma; "The Nicene Creed", for your reference. This is your sects non-laymen text of beliefs.
John 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Was this the Father speaking, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit? please explain. Then explain how is it that in the 10th verse Jesus is in the Father? I can understand the Father being in Him since the Father is spirit, Jesus doesn't mention where the Holy Spirit is.
Let us consider the 12th verse:
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
If the Father is in Jesus and Jesus in the Father, why is He going unto the Father so that his followers can do greater works than He performed? Jesus clearly stated that the Father was in him. Please explain or anyone else that seems to have a clear understanding according to trinitarianism.
The Nicene Creed
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
The statement concerning "being of one substance", what is this substance that your dogma is referring to.
I appreciate any and all responses.
L
This Post is for all to comment; especially, Trinitarians.
The Nicene Creed
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
"Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary"
Since the Holy Spirit impregnated the Virgin Mary, should Jesus be referring to the Holy Spirit as Father and not God the Father? This question is serious and I will appreciate a serious response.
The Nicene Creed
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
"Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary"
Since the Holy Spirit impregnated the Virgin Mary, should Jesus be referring to the Holy Spirit as Father and not God the Father? This question is serious and I will appreciate a serious response.
This Post is for all to comment; especially, Trinitarians.
The Nicene Creed
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
"Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary"
Since the Holy Spirit impregnated the Virgin Mary, should Jesus be referring to the Holy Spirit as Father and not God the Father? This question is serious and I will appreciate a serious response.
The Nicene Creed
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
"Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary"
Since the Holy Spirit impregnated the Virgin Mary, should Jesus be referring to the Holy Spirit as Father and not God the Father? This question is serious and I will appreciate a serious response.
J
This Post is for all to comment; especially, Trinitarians.
The Nicene Creed
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
"Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary"
Since the Holy Spirit impregnated the Virgin Mary, should Jesus be referring to the Holy Spirit as Father and not God the Father? This question is serious and I will appreciate a serious response.
The Nicene Creed
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
"Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary"
Since the Holy Spirit impregnated the Virgin Mary, should Jesus be referring to the Holy Spirit as Father and not God the Father? This question is serious and I will appreciate a serious response.
hate the Nicean creed, messed the gospel up.
J
This Post is for all to comment; especially, Trinitarians.
The Nicene Creed
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
"Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary"
Since the Holy Spirit impregnated the Virgin Mary, should Jesus be referring to the Holy Spirit as Father and not God the Father? This question is serious and I will appreciate a serious response.
The Nicene Creed
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
"Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary"
Since the Holy Spirit impregnated the Virgin Mary, should Jesus be referring to the Holy Spirit as Father and not God the Father? This question is serious and I will appreciate a serious response.
BTW this is the creed of 381 a.d. not the 325 a.d. where this stupid dogma began
This Post is for all to comment; especially, Trinitarians.
The Nicene Creed
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
"Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary"
Since the Holy Spirit impregnated the Virgin Mary, should Jesus be referring to the Holy Spirit as Father and not God the Father? This question is serious and I will appreciate a serious response.
The Nicene Creed
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
"Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary"
Since the Holy Spirit impregnated the Virgin Mary, should Jesus be referring to the Holy Spirit as Father and not God the Father? This question is serious and I will appreciate a serious response.
Luke 3:8Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.