Pope Says Having A Personal Relationship With Jesus Is Dangerous And Harmful

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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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"Pope Francis described as "dangerous" the temptation to believe that one can have "a personal, direct, immediate relationship with Jesus Christ without communion with and the mediation of the church."

While it is true that when we receive Christ that we become a part of the body of Christ, the church, our salvation is not obtained or maintained by other church members, but by our continued faith in Christ. Our faith is not and should not be in the church itself, but in our God who redeemed us. Our salvation and our relationship is one on one with the Lord first. We gather with other believers for the purpose of having fellowship and to glorify God by hearing and speaking his word and by song. The acid test of faith is, what do we do when we are alone. Do we exercise faith when troubles arise? Are we studying God's word when we are alone? Are we continuing in prayer multiple times a day. Are we relying on God when we are being tested? While we should gather together as believers, we are Christian's because we believe in Christ as individuals.

"[He] who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase [his] name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. [He] who has an ear, let [him] hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’"

"‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if [anyone] hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to [him] and will dine with [him], and [he] with Me"

Judging from the Scripture above and many others, it would appear that salvation is a personal one on one relationship. It seems that we are free agents in Christ, but we gather together for strength and fellowship in Christ.

The RCC's position is and has always been that they are the mother church and that all Christian sects should come underneath her authority. In fact, the desire of the RCC is get back the power that she had prior to 1798, so that all Christian sects adhere to her dogmas and her religious beliefs and look to the pope as standing in for Christ on earth.

With this type of thinking, they were directly responsible for all three inquisitions. If anyone didn't adhere to RCC's teachings recognizing them as the true church and the pope as the authority of that church, they were deemed as heretics and were imprisoned, tortured, their property was confiscated and they were burned at the stake. This was Roman Catholicism for many centuries and they want that authority back!

The pope's of the RCC controlled kings and that because they recognized them as church authority and were afraid of excommunication and this is how the pope's controlled them and their armies. This is the kind of power that the RCC is looking to regain and will regain it when that ruler, that antichrist is revealed. He will restore their authority and that because I believe that one of the future pope's will play the part of the false prophet. Think about it, looking at the devoutness of the over 1.2 billion Catholics, what do you think will happen when one of those pope's were to begin to perform those miracles, signs and wonders for all the world to see? Those who were devout would become even more devout and those other so-called Christian sects such as Mormonism, the Witnesses, scientology and the like would all be drawn into that last day religious system and that because the miracles, signs and wonders would server as proof to them. But we already know from scripture that he who will perform those things will be a false prophet and those signs he performs will be satanic, counterfeit signs.

In regards to the RCC, according to Scripture, she is anything but the church, for she is pagan through and through! Getting back to what the pope said "Being Christian means belonging to the church" this has to do with all Christian sects coming under the authority of the RCC. In other words you're not a Christian unless you belong to them and recognize the pope's authority. Things will really change on this earth when that man of lawlessness is revealed, then the true intentions of the RCC will be realized and that because the head of the RCC will be the false prophet to that antichrist who will be proclaiming to be God or anything that is called God or worshiped.

I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,379
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I am not Roman Catholic Christian, so...

I believe the Church is the Body of Christ. I don't want to be apart of Christ' Body.
Sorry about making that assumption; I thought you were Roman Catholic.

I also believe the church is the body of Christ.


Sometimes we start off having a doctrinal disagreement, and find out later we're really only having a problem with semantics. That may be all that's happening. It's especially common with people from different cultures.
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
1,115
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Maxwel,

I agree with him that instead of making for ourselves personal Jesus(es), we should seek community and unity in the Church.

After all, that's the whole point of Christianity!
You go to your church, I go to my church, onlinebuddy goes to his church, but each one should seek that community instead of "living" his faith alone, in his home, separated from the others believers.
I agree with him that instead of making for ourselves personal Jesus(es), we should seek community and unity in the Church.
GuessWho,
Point it out to me if anyone on this thread is saying that you must not go to Church or that you should not "seek community and unity in the Church."
Point it out to me if anyone on this thread is saying he must be,
"living" his faith alone, in his home, separated from the other believers."
Point it out to me if someone is even implying the same.
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
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Jesus preached once we are like him in relationship to the Father, we can ask what we desire and the Lord will provide.

We are brothers and sisters in the Lord because we all share the will of the Father, his heart and his desire for the nations and life. The church of the Living God is a reflection of this relationship.
The church of the Living God is a reflection of this relationship.
Very well put!!!


 

T_Laurich

Senior Member
Mar 24, 2013
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Actually no it is not... That is not biblical... If "we can ask what we desire and the Lord will provide" explain why Job had his sons and daughters killed and had boils all over his body despite his prayers...

Also Jesus preached multiple times, not just once... And he prayed a lot and often, not just once...
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
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Guesswho,

In the world of theology, words like "mediation" have very precise meanings. And the Pope is not just "some guy", he's a very scholarly and highly intelligent THEOLOGIAN. He knows exactly what he's saying, and he knows the exact impact his choice of words will have on different doctrinal communities, as well as on the worldwide ecumenical movement.
I couldn't have worded this better (than you).
Let me add though, that the Pope's words are intentionally divisive. It is another control tactic to keep catholics within the confines of the catholic church.
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
1,115
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Jesus preached once we are like him in relationship to the Father, we can ask what we desire and the Lord will provide.

We are brothers and sisters in the Lord because we all share the will of the Father, his heart and his desire for the nations and life. The church of the Living God is a reflection of this relationship.
Actually no it is not... That is not biblical... If "we can ask what we desire and the Lord will provide" explain why Job had his sons and daughters killed and had boils all over his body despite his prayers...

Also Jesus preached multiple times, not just once... And he prayed a lot and often, not just once...
I think PeterJens was referring to Mark 11:24 Matthew 21:22

His focus was on the fact that we must have a relationship with the Father- the subject matter of this thread.
 
Jul 15, 2013
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"It is through our brothers and sisters with their gifts and their limits," the pope said, "that he comes to us and makes himself known. This is what belonging to the church means. Remember: Being Christian means belonging to the church. If your first name is Christian, your last name is Member of the Church."
At the end of his talk, the pope asked people to join him in praying that they would never "give into the temptation of thinking you can do without others, without the church, that you can save yourself, of thinking you can be a laboratory Christian."
Anyone notice that he didn't say "a church" but throughout the talk said "the church"?

Even when I was Christian, I rarely gave much weight to what any pope said. It's not that, like other people, they don't sometimes might have valuable things to say, it's just that that air of authority in all things moral and spiritual gets in the way, especially when one considers that assumed authority in light of certain things that they teach, or have taught, in the past.
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
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I can assure you that if the same message would have been delivered by a protestant pastor, no one would have started a thread about this and be revolted about it.
GuessWho,
When the Pope says "the church," which church is he talking about?

 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
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Jesus Christ died for the Pharisees, too. He even prayed for them on the cross.
Also, Jesus Christ was more interested in them than in any other Jewish religious group of that time.



On the other hand, Jesus Christ revealed Himself to a Pharisee named Saul!!!

Jesus Christ died for the Pharisees, too. He even prayed for them on the cross.
Who's denying this? Why even mention this point?
Jesus rebuked the tar out of the Chief Priests and the Pharisees, bcoz they were a hindrance to the Gospel.

He was straightforward with them. Why can't we be straightforward with Muslims, instead of being nice and promoting harmony? Why can't we tell them to stop attacking our truths?
Islam has always launched a direct attack on Christianity. They say that our scriptures are corrupted, our Lord is not God, and the Holy Trinity is not true. They say that Ishmael is the chosen one, and not Isaac. If the Pope represents Christ, why can't he act Christlike and confront them? Why does he always want to be the nice guy? Jesus was never the "nice guy?"
Also, Jesus Christ was more interested in them than in any other Jewish religious group of that time.
Why mention the obvious?
It is clear that Jesus' ministry was for the Jews. (Later, a provision was made for the Gentiles.)


On the other hand, Jesus Christ revealed Himself to a Pharisee named Saul!!!
Who's denying this? But it still holds true that Jesus never was the nice guy who compromised the truth, and he never tried to promote harmony among the community of Pharisees (I say this again). He corrected them as often as he could and in the strongest tone.
Yes, Saul was God's chosen instrument. God can work through anyone. Today, there are many muslims who have converted to Christianity despite threats to their lives, and they are defending Christ more that the Pope.

Muslims are trained to refute Christian truths. Have you tried reasoning out with them? They will use your Bible and prove you wrong! That's because the average Catholic is trained to adhere to sacraments(ready-made clergy-laity system), more than study the Word of God.

Yes, Jesus taught us to love our enemies (How can anyone deny that?). But Jesus also showed us with his example that we must DEFEND the truth. For every Christian is an ambassador of Christ (not just the Pope). An ambassador promotes peace, but not at the cost of truth!



 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
1,115
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Mark 12:38-40
38 In His teaching He was saying: “Beware of the scribes who like to walk around in long robes, and like respectful greetings in the market places, 39 and chief seats in the synagogues and places of honor at banquets, 40 who devour widows’ houses, and for appearance’s sake offer long prayers; these will receive greater condemnation.”
Do you read this passage as meaning that Jesus Christ promoted hate and war?
My answer is No. Jesus did not come to promote hate and war! He came to spread the good news of God's salvation to mankind. He came to promote love and peace. He came to destroy the work of the Devil.

However, the below-mentioned verse seems contradictory, doesn't it? What interpretation has the Holy Spirit given to you about this verse?
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.(Mt 10:34)
 
Sep 16, 2014
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It isn't just Catholics that emphasize belonging to their church to be saved, to the exclusion of other denominations. The "Churches of Christ" in our state teach exclusiveness, won't join other denominations for events like most local churches coming together for National Day of Prayer. They are not alone among non-catholic churches. I see some improvement among United Pentecostal churches loosening up about requiring tongues and other practices as a sign of salvation, also tending not to fellowship with Baptists and others that forbid unknown tongues. That's still a subject of fierce division around here.

Not once in scripture will anyone find instructions to join a church to be saved. Never will you find a promise in the Bible that if you were infant baptized in a church, you belong to Christ forever. I know it might not be P.C. to jump on Catholics by asking them when they were born again, but I do. I pursue the personal relationship issue until they run off. But very often that's simply an issue they don't think about because it isn't taught to them. Parishioners just don't know what to say about it. The priests can expound on it, and still insist I must stop rebelling and proselyting their members. I don't do that. They are visiting us. I won't send them back, but am very hard on them if they question what we do. For a while I thought they were being planted, but not so. They are just regular Americans like me, having "inherited" the RCC. I "inherited" the So. Baptist route until an adult, key relatives insisting that was the only proper church. I wasn't a model So. Baptist at any time in my youth, rarely attending a service, going if there was a nice lunch involved.

My point in this post is that in some sense probably every denomination has in their mind theirs is the "accurate" way to the Father. When a Gideon is asked what church they belong to, we're supposed to immediately get off that subject because the typical response to whatever affiliation you are of, they will say something like "Ohhh" without a smile.

A typical non-denominational answer will be along the lines of "Ahhh" with a smile. The emphasis is to be active somewhere the Bible is taught. The main concern is what you have done about Jesus. The RCC won't ask about that. Respond to Jesus, then he takes care of a believer concerning membership in the heavenly body of Christ. The body of Christ is represented by individual Christians across all Christian congregations that promote the gospel of Jesus Christ according to the Bible, though there are some differences in how they do that.
 
Sep 16, 2014
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It does not matter what Church you attend as long as they teach the Truth in the Scriptures. There are MANY Churches that do teach the Truth and follow god.

Unfortunately there are Churches like the Corrupted Catholic Church that teach Doctrines of men over the Truth from God and its these Churches we are to avoid.
 

GuessWho

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2014
1,227
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Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.(Mt 10:34)
I understand that Jesus Christ came to separate darkness from light, death from life. Not to divide people!!!

Now about the Pharisees. You say "why mention the obvious, it is clear that Jesus Christ ministered for the Jews".
I challenged you to think and ask yourself "why was Jesus Christ so interested in them, in the Pharisee Jewish group?". Why not in Sadducees or Essens or Zealots etc.?

Also, I will no longer continue a discussion with you because it's simply...pointless and it gets tiring.

P.S.: I already said in previous comments which church is the Pope talking about. Please, read my comments and don't make me repeat them all over again. Thank you.
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
1,115
24
38
It isn't just Catholics that emphasize belonging to their church to be saved, to the exclusion of other denominations. The "Churches of Christ" in our state teach exclusiveness, won't join other denominations for events like most local churches coming together for National Day of Prayer. They are not alone among non-catholic churches. I see some improvement among United Pentecostal churches loosening up about requiring tongues and other practices as a sign of salvation, also tending not to fellowship with Baptists and others that forbid unknown tongues. That's still a subject of fierce division around here.

Not once in scripture will anyone find instructions to join a church to be saved. Never will you find a promise in the Bible that if you were infant baptized in a church, you belong to Christ forever. I know it might not be P.C. to jump on Catholics by asking them when they were born again, but I do. I pursue the personal relationship issue until they run off. But very often that's simply an issue they don't think about because it isn't taught to them. Parishioners just don't know what to say about it. The priests can expound on it, and still insist I must stop rebelling and proselyting their members. I don't do that. They are visiting us. I won't send them back, but am very hard on them if they question what we do. For a while I thought they were being planted, but not so. They are just regular Americans like me, having "inherited" the RCC. I "inherited" the So. Baptist route until an adult, key relatives insisting that was the only proper church. I wasn't a model So. Baptist at any time in my youth, rarely attending a service, going if there was a nice lunch involved.

My point in this post is that in some sense probably every denomination has in their mind theirs is the "accurate" way to the Father. When a Gideon is asked what church they belong to, we're supposed to immediately get off that subject because the typical response to whatever affiliation you are of, they will say something like "Ohhh" without a smile.

A typical non-denominational answer will be along the lines of "Ahhh" with a smile. The emphasis is to be active somewhere the Bible is taught. The main concern is what you have done about Jesus. The RCC won't ask about that. Respond to Jesus, then he takes care of a believer concerning membership in the heavenly body of Christ. The body of Christ is represented by individual Christians across all Christian congregations that promote the gospel of Jesus Christ according to the Bible, though there are some differences in how they do that.
It isn't just Catholics that emphasize belonging to their church to be saved, to the exclusion of other denominations.
True, although they will not openly mention it.

I see some improvement among United Pentecostal churches loosening up about requiring tongues and other practices as a sign of salvation,

That's good to hear .

Not once in scripture will anyone find instructions to join a church to be saved. Never will you find a promise in the Bible that if you were infant baptized in a church, you belong to Christ forever. I know it might not be P.C. to jump on Catholics by asking them when they were born again, but I do. I pursue the personal relationship issue until they run off. But very often that's simply an issue they don't think about because it isn't taught to them.
The very concept of infant baptism is not in the Bible. The concept of being born-again is, and the concept of personal relationship is also in the Bible.

The problem with the Catholic church is that they have devised rules to supposedly safeguard a member's walk with God. Similarly, there are sacraments (and traditions) which serve as checkpoints in a member's life. Every checkpoint has to be cleared, and in the prescribed order! If not, corrections must be made. The Pharisees had done the same, and Jesus rebuked them in Matthew 15:9.
Jesus has pointed out the exact problem with such a system: The person becomes dependent on the man-made rules and sacraments and traditions, and God's word gets nullified.
God does not need man-made rules (a religious system) to safeguard his Laws and to keep his people in check. Christ is actively building his church and bringing it to perfection. A true church does not have man at it's helm, but the Lord Jesus. A true church is guided by servants of Christ, called overseers, deacons, etc. They must not have a special title, and no one must call himself "the head." This kind of system is DANGEROUS AND HARMFUL. A personal relationship with Jesus isn't harmful and dangerous, in any form.

The body of Christ is represented by individual Christians across all Christian congregations that promote the gospel of Jesus Christ according to the Bible, though there are some differences in how they do that.
This is the bottomline!
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
1,115
24
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My answer is No. Jesus did not come to promote hate and war! He came to spread the good news of God's salvation to mankind. He came to promote love and peace. He came to destroy the work of the Devil.

However, the below-mentioned verse seems contradictory, doesn't it? What interpretation has the Holy Spirit given to you about this verse?
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.(Mt 10:34)
I understand that Jesus Christ came to separate darkness from light, death from life. Not to divide people!!!

Now about the Pharisees. You say "why mention the obvious, it is clear that Jesus Christ ministered for the Jews".
I challenged you to think and ask yourself "why was Jesus Christ so interested in them, in the Pharisee Jewish group?". Why not in Sadducees or Essens or Zealots etc.?

Also, I will no longer continue a discussion with you because it's simply...pointless and it gets tiring.

P.S.: I already said in previous comments which church is the Pope talking about. Please, read my comments and don't make me repeat them all over again. Thank you.
Who said Jesus came to divide people? No one on this thread is saying this!!!

Now let me explain what I understand by Mt 10:34:
Firstly, what it doesn't mean: This verse doesn't mean that Jesus came to start a war or to divide people.

The sword he is talking about is not a physical sword.
Jesus was against any physical violence and that's why he told Peter to put his sword back.
Jesus is the Prince of Peace. He came to make peace between mankind and God; not political peace. Politics was not his calling. He neither influenced nor interfered in politics.
He proclaimed the truth- that He was the ONLY way to the Father. No other way!!! This divided his hearers into two groups. The believers and the unbelievers.
He knew that some would accept him, but the majority would not.
Due to his foreknowledge, Jesus knew that the unbelievers would be in constant conflict with the believers. This is the sword that Jesus was talking about.
This conflict was not promoted by Jesus, but obviously resulted from the unbelief of his hearers.
Children of the dark would be at war with Children of the Light.
The true followers of Christ (not the nominal Christians) would be hated.
A true Christian would be persecuted. That is his cross.
A true follower of Christ may be hated by unbelieving members of his own household.
Jesus has promised us salvation (and the resulting peace and wisdom and fellowship with the Father and one another, etc); but a Christian must be ready to face hatred and opposition from unbelievers.

Thank you Guesswho, for your precious time spent on this thread!