Rapture - Satan's Great Lie

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M

marrion

Guest
#21
The five wise virgins go into the rapture with the bridegroom while the five foolish virgins are left behind to go through the tribulation.The baptism of the holy spirit is the oil that is needed to make the rapture.This is what enables us to live holy and obedient to Gods commands and stay unspotted from the world.i don't understand why Christians don't believe in the rapture.The tribulation is going to be a time of great torment and many Christians will renounce their faith in Christ because of the torment they will be under.This is why it is important to not be in a lukewarm state when Jesus comes to snatch his bride away.There are many raptures in the Bible,enoch,elijah,Jesus,the saints which came out of the graves at Jesus death.Youtube is flooded with rapture dream/vision testimonies along with many other holy spirit inspired testimonies fulfilling joel 2:28.The two witnesses that go to Israel will also be raptured after their work is done in Israel.its almost like some Christians don't even want their to be a rapture because they want to earn and deserve heaven by going through torment when Jesus already did this for us.The church will go through the tribulation but not the bride.
 
J

jahsoul

Guest
#22
@Linda70

How are you doing? :) I read Rev 3:10 a few times but then it makes you wonder what they have to overcome in Rev 3:12. *shrugs*
 
L

Linda70

Guest
#23
@Linda70

How are you doing? :) I read Rev 3:10 a few times but then it makes you wonder what they have to overcome in Rev 3:12. *shrugs*
This is a picture of the remnant of true apostolic churches which remain true to God until the translation (rapture) just preceding the worldwide tribulation. Jesus said that in this (present) world, we will have tribulation, but we are to be of good cheer, because He (Christ) has overcome the world (John 16:33). All true born again believers (the church/the bride/the body of Christ) are overcomers IN CHRIST. The tribulation of this present world is NOT the same as THE TRIBULATION (which is God's wrath and judgment).

Tribulation--affliction, trouble, pressure, distress (John 16:33).
The Tribulation--the final seven years before Christ returns to the earth. Also referred to as Daniel's 70th week.
The Great Tribulation--the last 3½ years before Christ returns to the earth. This will be the most intense and difficult time of trouble the world has ever known (Matthew 24:21).
The Day of the Lord--A time when God directly intervenes in the affairs of men especially by judgment but also by way of blessing. It is often used in the Bible to describe the judgment and wrath of God poured out upon the world during the Tribulation period.
Daniel's 70th Week--based on Daniel 9:24-27. This refers to the final seven years before Christ returns to the earth (the "week" being a period of seven years, not seven days).
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#24
Mattithyah 24:29-30, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

The pre-trib doctrine was never preached before around 1830, and is in place to get people to accepth the anti-Messiah, they will be told "meeting Christ in the air is not literal, it's is a higher state of consciousness." The UN has been publishing magazines about thier comin "cosmic christ" for 40 years or something, called "Matreyu." (sp) You need to look into "PROJECT BLUE BEAM," they plan on using hologram technology to fake the second coming, and this is no cracker-jack attempt, it real and it's real serious. Many will fall for it if it happens.

Here are some links

CNN Hologram TV First - YouTube

223 - The New Age Agenda - Amazing Discoveries TV

625 - The Coming Cosmic Christ / Secrets of the Ages - John Triplett - YouTube

Project Blue Beam By Serge Monast (1994)
 

Radius

Senior Member
Feb 11, 2013
1,138
180
63
#26
The rapture takes place Mid trib, pre wrath.
 
J

jahsoul

Guest
#27
This is a picture of the remnant of true apostolic churches which remain true to God until the translation (rapture) just preceding the worldwide tribulation. Jesus said that in this (present) world, we will have tribulation, but we are to be of good cheer, because He (Christ) has overcome the world (John 16:33). All true born again believers (the church/the bride/the body of Christ) are overcomers IN CHRIST. The tribulation of this present world is NOT the same as THE TRIBULATION (which is God's wrath and judgment).

Tribulation--affliction, trouble, pressure, distress (John 16:33).
The Tribulation--the final seven years before Christ returns to the earth. Also referred to as Daniel's 70th week.
The Great Tribulation--the last 3½ years before Christ returns to the earth. This will be the most intense and difficult time of trouble the world has ever known (Matthew 24:21).
The Day of the Lord--A time when God directly intervenes in the affairs of men especially by judgment but also by way of blessing. It is often used in the Bible to describe the judgment and wrath of God poured out upon the world during the Tribulation period.
Daniel's 70th Week--based on Daniel 9:24-27. This refers to the final seven years before Christ returns to the earth (the "week" being a period of seven years, not seven days).
Honestly, the entire church is not facing real tribulation. While in some places around the world it is forbidden, yourself and I can freely go around professing our faith. Think about the real persecution of the early church and Jesus saying that the Great Tribulation would be like nothing ever before.

But we have to ask ourselves the common sense questions of the black, white, and red of the Word. The only people in the Bible who are called the elect are those who completely put their faith in Jesus Christ. If the church has already been raptured before the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24, who are the elect the angels collect from the four winds immediately after the tribulation? If people use Matt 24:36-44 to describe the rapture of the church, how could the first 35 verses be blindly ignored? How can those who are left behind come to Christ when the deception of the anti christ would be so strong that if possiible, the elect (who was supposedly raptured away before this) would be fooled?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#28
My husband believes in pre-trib rapture the church he attended taught him this concept.He is stuck on keeping this idea.
That is the real problem. My dad was a Baptist minister for 18 years. He taught Pre-Trib and he still believes it. I showed him all the passages that prove it to be a false doctrine but because he learned it from Moody, he will not change his mind and tells me that you have to believe in Dispensationalism. It is so frustrating to see so many Christians just blindly accepting this Rapture lie without testing it against the Word.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#29
Chosen,

You and I keep going around and around. You continue to make thin doctrinal arguments on fringe areas that YOU say point to a MASSIVE NEW DOCTRINE called the Rapture. But you fail to point me to a single verse where the Rapture, especially a Pre-Trib Rapture, AS AN EVENT is described.

Jesus taught many doctrinal things when He was on earth. He taught many things about the Kingdom. But nowhere did Jesus discuss the concept of Him returning to earth BEFORE the Tribulation to gather up His saints and take them to heaven so that His saints won't have to endure the Great Tribulation. Not only did Jesus NEVER teach us this, neither did any of His disciples. This is an inescapable fact that Pre-Tribbers always ignore.

Jesus made clear in John 15:15, "For all things that I heard from My Father, I have made known to you (His disciples)." So either:

1) Jesus had no idea of the Rapture when He was walking on earth OR
2) he lied to us in John 15:15 OR
3) he told the disciples about the Rapture but told them to be quiet about it.

Which was it?

Jesus had the perfect opportunity during the Olivet Discourse to teach the Rapture. He was specifically answering questions from His disciples about the end times, and the sign of His return. The disciples were NOT unbelieving Jews, they are His saints and the founders of His Church. There would be no reason for Jesus to omit the Rapture especially in light of John 15:15. Yet you can read all three accounts of the Olivet Discourse in Mark 13, Mat 24, Luke 17 & 21 and find absolutely ZERO hint of a Rapture. All you see Jesus discussing are:

1) warnings about false Christs,
2) warnings about false PROPHETS!!,
3) persecution and death to those who follow HIM,
4) Hints about what to do and where to go to avoid this, and
5) Signs and descriptions of HIS "REAL" return.


The Pre-Trib Rapture, if one existed, would be one heck of a sign of the Tribulation and HIS later return to omit. Don't ya think??

If you take away all the works of Paul would you still see a Pre-Trib Rapture? I think not. So without Paul there is no rapture. So are we to believe that Paul introduced a totally new concept NEVER taught during Jesus' day? Or, isn't it more likely that Paul wasn't teaching anything new but rather his teachings are not being correctly understood? Peter tells us in 2 Peter 3 that Paul's teachings are difficult to understand and that they will be twisted, see below.

"...as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction..."


So tell me, what major doctrine about the end times is being "twisted" today if not the Rapture theory?

To accept the Pre-Trib Rapture theory one MUST invoke concepts such as "imminent return", "not appointed to wrath", "dispensationalism," and a slew of other things to be able to "find room" for an earlier return of Christ. Rather than accepting that maybe they are wrong in their application of these minor doctrinal teachings they jump to an ENORMOUS NEW RAPTURE CONCEPT.

I'll address the "proof" you provide (although I've done it before), Brother Chosen, in another response because this one is getting long.
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#30
"...as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction..."

So tell me, what major doctrine about the end times is being "twisted" today if not the Rapture theory?
I wanted to point out in the above argument that there is no "destruction" to one's self to believe in Post Trib as it is the classical view and the clear teaching. Why do I say this? Because if there is a pre-Trib Rapture, we'll just be taken away early too, no harm, no foul.

But if you believe in Pre-Trib, there is enormous destruction to be faced during the Tribulation such as; not preparing spiritually and physically, not WATCHING as we are instructed over and over to do, loss of faith, accepting the Beast because you were expecting the real Christ to come first not to mention the warnings from John in Rev 22:18:

18 "For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book."

Who or what is being added to this book? A Rapture (where one is not found in all of Revelation) could very well be adding to the prophesy of Revelation. If so, those who advance this lie could be facing the plagues and the wrath during the Tribulation that they expect to avoid. I'm not judging anyone, just pointing out this possibility.

Also, why would it be so important to WATCH if we are going to be raptured away before the bad stuff happens? Is it only so we can warn others? If that's the case, wouldn't we serve that purpose better by remaining on earth during the Tribulation so that we can all be prophets and teach the unbeliever?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#31
There is plenty of evidence for a pre-trib. Rapture.


If you are not dispensational, well then that may be the main reason you are not able to understand the Biblical Doctrine of the Pre-Trib. Rapture. You have to obey the command given in 2 Timothy 2:15:


15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
There is a BIG difference between rightly dividing and inventing. Pre-Tribbers invent. Rightly dividing is more along the lines of understanding the context of scripture, the historical and sequential context, comparing other scripture to strengthen a lesson, etc. It is NOT inventing a whole new MASSIVE DOCTRINE that is NOT taught on its own. Pre-Trib does not stand on its own anywhere in the Bible. It can only be found be "wrongly dividing" the Word, taking scriptures out of context, misinterpreting minor doctrinal teachings to fabricate a MAJOR doctrinal teaching.
 
M

marrion

Guest
#32
although there is no mention of the word 'RAPTURE' in the bible there are definitely types and symbols pointing to a rapture as well as clear scripture(I THESSALONIANS 4:16-18,I CORINTHIANS 15:51-54,I THESSALONIANS 5:1-11).The story of Joseph is a great type of the rapture and what takes place after the rapture.As Joseph in the Old Testament revealed Himself to his brethren, so will Jesus reveal Himself to His Jewish brethren who have sold him and betrayed him. As this scenario takes place, it is also during this time that Tribulation Period is going-on. REVELATION 7:4-8 talks about this prophesy. the story of Joseph meeting his brethren, we will recall that not all the brethren came. Joseph knew that and insisted that all the brethren appear before him, or he could not make himself known unto them. Finally they brought the one that was missing, little Benjamin. It was little Benjamin, the full brother of Joseph, that set his soul on fire. And when our Joseph, even Jesus, will come to the people who have kept the commandments of God and who have gone back to Palestine, His soul will be set on fire. Little Benjamin typifies the 144,000 Israelites from all over the earth who have gone back to Palestine for their redemption.

They will be standing there ready to receive Him, Whom to know aright is Life eternal. They will say, "This is our God for Whom we have waited." Then they will see Him Whom they have pierced. And they will cry out in dismay, "Where did these awful wounds come from? How did it happen?" And they will wail and cry, every family apart, everyone apart in the agony of sorrow.

Now where will the Gentile Church be while Jesus is making Himself known to His brethren? Remember that the bride of Joseph with the two children were in the palace, for Joseph had commanded, "Let everyone leave me; put them all out from before me." So the Gentile bride was hidden in the palace of Joseph. Where will the Gentile Church go in the rapture? Into the palace. The bride will be taken off the earth. She will be caught up before the great tribulation to meet her Lord in the air. For three and one-half years while the retributive wrath of God is poured out, she will be in the great Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

Then will He return, leaving His bride in "His Father's house," while he makes Himself known to His brethren. At this very time, the antichrist covenant that the Jews have made with Rome will be broken.Rome and her allies then send their troops to destroy all the God-fearing, Word-abiding Jews (Daniel 9:27).

But as they come against the city to destroy it, there will appear in the heavens the sign of the coming of the Son of Man with His mighty armies to destroy them who have been destroying the earth. With the enemy repulsed,Jesus then comes and presents Himself to the 144,000. Having seen His mighty acts of salvation, they have come to know His power. But also seeing His wounds and knowing that they had rejected Him even to that moment, causes them to cry out in the agony of terror and fear, even as did their brethren of old when they stood before Joseph, being sore afraid that they would be killed. But as Joseph said, "Don't be angry with yourselves. It is all right. God was in it all. He did it to preserve life." Even so will Jesus speak peace and love to them.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Why did the Jews reject Jesus? God was in it all. It was the only way that He could bring out the Gentile bride. He died on the cross to preserve the life of the Gentile Church.
[/FONT]​
 
M

marrion

Guest
#33
although there is no mention of the word 'RAPTURE' in the bible there are definitely types and symbols pointing to a rapture as well as clear scripture(I THESSALONIANS 4:16-18,I CORINTHIANS 15:51-54,I THESSALONIANS 5:1-11).The story of Joseph is a great type of the rapture and what takes place after the rapture.As Joseph in the Old Testament revealed Himself to his brethren, so will Jesus reveal Himself to His Jewish brethren who have sold him and betrayed him. As this scenario takes place, it is also during this time that the Tribulation Period is going-on. REVELATION 7:4-8 talks about this prophesy. In the story of Joseph meeting his brethren, we will recall that not all the brethren came. Joseph knew that and insisted that all the brethren appear before him, or he could not make himself known unto them. Finally they brought the one that was missing, little Benjamin. It was little Benjamin, the full brother of Joseph, that set his soul on fire. And when our Joseph, even Jesus, will come to the people who have kept the commandments of God and who have gone back to Palestine, His soul will be set on fire. Little Benjamin typifies the 144,000 Israelites from all over the earth who have gone back to Palestine for their redemption.

They will be standing there ready to receive Him, Whom to know aright is Life eternal. They will say, "This is our God for Whom we have waited." Then they will see Him Whom they have pierced. And they will cry out in dismay, "Where did these awful wounds come from? How did it happen?" And they will wail and cry, every family apart, everyone apart in the agony of sorrow.

Now where will the Gentile bride be while Jesus is making Himself known to His brethren? Remember that the bride of Joseph with the two children were in the palace, for Joseph had commanded, "Let everyone leave me; put them all out from before me." So the Gentile bride was hidden in the palace of Joseph. Where will the Gentile bride go in the rapture? Into the palace. The bride will be taken off the earth. She will be caught up before the great tribulation to meet her Lord in the air. For three and one-half years while the retributive wrath of God is poured out, she will be in the great Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

Then will He return, leaving His bride in "His Father's house," while he makes Himself known to His brethren. At this very time, the antichrist covenant that the Jews have made with Rome will be broken.Rome and her allies then send their troops to destroy all the God-fearing, Word-abiding Jews (Daniel 9:27).

But as they come against the city to destroy it, there will appear in the heavens the sign of the coming of the Son of Man with His mighty armies to destroy them who have been destroying the earth. With the enemy repulsed,Jesus then comes and presents Himself to the 144,000. Having seen His mighty acts of salvation, they have come to know His power. But also seeing His wounds and knowing that they had rejected Him even to that moment, causes them to cry out in the agony of terror and fear, even as did their brethren of old when they stood before Joseph, being sore afraid that they would be killed. But as Joseph said, "Don't be angry with yourselves. It is all right. God was in it all. He did it to preserve life." Even so will Jesus speak peace and love to them.
Why did the Jews reject Jesus? God was in it all. It was the only way that He could bring out the Gentile bride. He died on the cross to preserve the life of the Gentile bride.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
2,551
113
#34
Chosen,

You and I keep going around and around. You continue to make thin doctrinal arguments on fringe areas that YOU say point to a MASSIVE NEW DOCTRINE called the Rapture. But you fail to point me to a single verse where the Rapture, especially a Pre-Trib Rapture, AS AN EVENT is described.

Jesus taught many doctrinal things when He was on earth. He taught many things about the Kingdom. But nowhere did Jesus discuss the concept of Him returning to earth BEFORE the Tribulation to gather up His saints and take them to heaven so that His saints won't have to endure the Great Tribulation. Not only did Jesus NEVER teach us this, neither did any of His disciples. This is an inescapable fact that Pre-Tribbers always ignore.

Jesus made clear in John 15:15, "For all things that I heard from My Father, I have made known to you (His disciples)." So either:

1) Jesus had no idea of the Rapture when He was walking on earth OR
2) he lied to us in John 15:15 OR
3) he told the disciples about the Rapture but told them to be quiet about it.

Which was it?

Jesus had the perfect opportunity during the Olivet Discourse to teach the Rapture. He was specifically answering questions from His disciples about the end times, and the sign of His return. The disciples were NOT unbelieving Jews, they are His saints and the founders of His Church. There would be no reason for Jesus to omit the Rapture especially in light of John 15:15. Yet you can read all three accounts of the Olivet Discourse in Mark 13, Mat 24, Luke 17 & 21 and find absolutely ZERO hint of a Rapture. All you see Jesus discussing are:

1) warnings about false Christs,
2) warnings about false PROPHETS!!,
3) persecution and death to those who follow HIM,
4) Hints about what to do and where to go to avoid this, and
5) Signs and descriptions of HIS "REAL" return.


The Pre-Trib Rapture, if one existed, would be one heck of a sign of the Tribulation and HIS later return to omit. Don't ya think??

If you take away all the works of Paul would you still see a Pre-Trib Rapture? I think not. So without Paul there is no rapture. So are we to believe that Paul introduced a totally new concept NEVER taught during Jesus' day? Or, isn't it more likely that Paul wasn't teaching anything new but rather his teachings are not being correctly understood? Peter tells us in 2 Peter 3 that Paul's teachings are difficult to understand and that they will be twisted, see below.

"...as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction..."


So tell me, what major doctrine about the end times is being "twisted" today if not the Rapture theory?

To accept the Pre-Trib Rapture theory one MUST invoke concepts such as "imminent return", "not appointed to wrath", "dispensationalism," and a slew of other things to be able to "find room" for an earlier return of Christ. Rather than accepting that maybe they are wrong in their application of these minor doctrinal teachings they jump to an ENORMOUS NEW RAPTURE CONCEPT.

I'll address the "proof" you provide (although I've done it before), Brother Chosen, in another response because this one is getting long.
Plainword I just gave you the scripture that proves the pre rapture theory revelations3:10
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#35
I saw Plain word said nowhere in the bible does it say God will save his chosen elect before the tribulation, well you just weren't looking hard enough:
Revelations 3:10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. even posted it in the king james version for you guys:]
I think there is a lot of disagreement on what the 7 churches in early Revelation mean. Is the intent only to instruct those specific churches that John discusses or do they represent different church ages or have other symbolic end time meanings? Or do these 7 churches all represent 7 churches of today? The truth is, nobody knows. We would all be speculating.

To say the church of Philadelphia represents the entire modern Trib era church is a reach. First, the collective Church today is so diverse, probably more so than any time in history. So, if this is the intended meaning, I believe Philadelphia would have to represent a small group of the church:

"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

If Philadelphia represents a small group of today's churches, this would really destroy this Rapture theory. This verse would then imply that only 1 of 7 of today's churches "measure up" and deserve protection. These would mean the other 6 churches don't measure up and would go through the Tribulation.

Then also, we don't have the Philadelphia church going to heaven. We just have them "kept" from trial that the other churches will face by implication. We have plenty of examples where God has "Kept" his people from trouble and in no case did He take them to heaven to do it. The children of Israel during Moses' day painted their door posts with blood to PROTECT them from the passover angel of death. Lot was warned and told where and when to flee. Noah was warned and told to build an arc. These are just some of the more recognized examples. None of them were taken to heaven.

I do believe and I have been stating on these pages that I do think there is a place for the true believer to go. Jesus tells those in Jerusalem to flee to the desert when they see the Abomination of Desolation. John in Revelation discusses the Woman who is taken away by an eagle to a safe place. We have 144,000 sealed and protected. So there is plenty of evidence and precedent for the concept of "Protection" verses "Rapture."

Plainword I just gave you the scripture that proves the pre rapture theory revelations3:10
Rev 3:10 if anything destroys the idea of a massive rapture of the untested collective church.
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#36
Plainword I just gave you the scripture that proves the pre rapture theory revelations3:10
"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."
Actually Rev 3:10 is more destructive to Pre-Trib Rapture teaching than I first thought.

First, what is it the Philadelphia church is being complimented for? My command to persevere. What are they "persevering" against? Certainly not an early fly-away rapture. This if anything suggests Philly is on earth during at least some of the Tribulation, does it not?

The English word used was "keep" not "protect." I don't have time to look up the Greek word used now. The Lord has other ways to keep people from something besides to protect them. If the Lord is going to "TEST" those who dwell on earth we can assume some will pass and some will fail. Can we assume "Strong" Christians pass and "Weak" Christians fail? To be "Tested" could mean to be called before the Anti-Christ and have to profess God to the death or worship the Beast. If you worship the Beast - you lose. So, perhaps the Lord is going to spare Philly by having them killed early on without being put to the test. We do see a lot of dead Tribulation era saints in heaven, more than any one can count. We do have what appears to be a huge asteroid hitting the earth and plenty of earthquakes and other natural ways for people to die quickly without losing their salvation.

This thinking totally agrees with Zech 13 where the Lord is testing Israel so now we see the Lord testing the church. Rev 3:10 is a pretty damaging verse for you Pre-Tribbers.
 
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L

Linda70

Guest
#37
Is the Rapture Pre-Trib?..
Posted in Israel's Messenger on August 10, 2009

by Mark Robinson

“Pre-trib”, “mid-trib”, “post-trib”, “pre-wrath”. Perhaps you have heard these terms—perhaps not. They refer to the timing of the Rapture of the Church. “Trib” refers to the seven year Tribulation period prophesied in the Bible that will occur just before Jesus returns and sets up His kingdom on earth. While all rapture positions agree, based on Daniel 9:27, that a seven year period will take place, there are various theories regarding the timing of the rapture in relation to this seven year period. “Pre-trib” teaching believes all church age born again believers, dead and alive, will be bodily resurrected and meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) before the seven year period starts; “mid-trib” believes the rapture will be in the middle of the seven year period; “post-trib” at the end of the seven year period; and “pre-wrath” believes it will occur before the wrath of God is poured out during the seven year period which, according to the theory, is sometime during the last half of the seven year period.

Is this issue really important, or is this just “prophecy buffs” arguing over something that doesn’t amount to much at all?

Although not the most essential doctrine of the faith, it is nonetheless a doctrine that does have profound implications for our Christian life. The issue of the timing of the Rapture is important because it has significant ramifications on how we live. If, for example, the rapture could occur at any moment, as the pre-trib proponents believe, we should live righteously and godly, for we know we may meet Him face to face even today.

The Bible does tell us “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable…” [emphasis added] (2 Timothy 3:16). And we are told to “…rightly divid[e] the word of truth” so that the “workman needeth not be ashamed” (2 Timothy 2:15).

If you believe in any of the rapture positions other than pre-trib, perhaps you need to prepare for martyrdom, as most believers in the Tribulation period will lose their life for their faith. One writer, who doesn’t accept the pre-trib rapture position, believes Christians are headed for disaster if they don’t reject the pre-trib view and accept his position. “The church will enter that period unprepared, spiritually naked, vulnerable, and ripe for the Antichrist’s deception. A questioning of the trustworthiness of the Word of God will naturally follow. It will be a spiritual catastrophe—a Pearl Harbor of incalculable proportions—a satanically planned sneak attack.”{1}

What an indictment of the spiritual walk of godly people who hold to the pre-trib position. Actually, it would seem to me that someone holding to a pre-trib rapture position, and living in light of that truth would be prepared for anything that comes along, as we are told in 2 Peter 3:14 of those looking forward to future events: “Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.”

There are many arguments that could be presented to defend the pre-trib rapture position. Briefly, we will look at three which I believe establish the correctness of this view.

DISTINCTION OF THE CHURCH AND ISRAEL

Daniel 9:24-27 is a very strong Scriptural argument for the pre-trib rapture position. My contention is that, of all the rapture positions, this passage supports only the pre-trib view.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The prophesied period of time is broken into two periods which we need to consider, the first 69 weeks and the last week. The first 69 weeks (a week is 7 years {2}) refers to the time the prophecy was given to the time the Messiah is cut off—killed. After His death, “the people of the prince” come and “destroy the city and the sanctuary” (vs. 26). This took place in 70 A.D. when the Romans destroyed the Temple and the City of Jerusalem. It is clear that about a 40 year gap of time exists between the beginning of verse 26, “Messiah cut off,” around 32 A.D., and the “destruction of the city and the sanctuary” in 70 A.D. The final week of the prophecy starts in verse 27, so the last week starts sometime after 70 A.D. This week starts when the Anti-Christ “shall confirm a covenant with many…” This is a treaty between Israel (the focus of this prophecy) and her enemies, orchestrated by the Anti-Christ.

The entire 70 weeks is exclusively for the Jewish people. “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and thy holy city.” Since the church wasn’t born until after Jesus ascended into heaven, 40 days after his death and resurrection, it is clear that the church was not present during the first 69 weeks.

It is reasonable to assume that since the church was not present in the first 69 weeks she will not be present in the last week. There is another analogy to consider. In the beginning of the Church age, both the Church and Israel were present for a short time (until the nation was destroyed in 70 A.D.). It is reasonable to conclude that at the end of the Church age, both the Church and Israel are present. With the re-birth of the nation of Israel in 1948, this is the exact scenario we have today. For this analogy to be carried through the Church must be gone during the last week (seven years) of this prophecy, as she was not present during the first 69 weeks. The only position to allow for this is the pre-trib rapture position. It is based upon this understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 that we conclude the rapturemust be before the Tribulation period begins.

IMMINENCY

Imminency means no prophecy has to be fulfilled before the Lord returns for His bride. The only rapture position that meets this criteria is the pre-trib rapture view. In all the other rapture beliefs there are many prophecies that have to be fulfilled before the Lord can come for His Church.

A plain reading of the Scripture makes it difficult for anyone to deny the imminency of the coming of the Lord. Among many verses, here are a few:

“Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:12-13

“Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.” Philippians 4:5

“Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.” James 5:7-9

The language of these verses clearly speaks of an “anytime” coming of the Lord. “Looking for that blessed hope,” (not the coming of the Anti-Christ or any other prophecy); “the Lord is at hand;” and “the judge standeth before the door” all demand an understanding of imminency in regard to the coming of the Lord. J. Barton Payne declared, “In fact, no natural reading of Scripture would produce any other conclusion.”{3}

The imminent coming of Christ has been consistently taught throughout church history. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church states, “Primitive Christianity believed the event to be imminent and this belief has been revived from time to time in the history of the church.”{4}

It is difficult to understand how the biblical writers could believe a rapture position that required the Tribulation period and certain prophecies to take place before the coming of the Lord, while also clearly teaching the imminent coming of the Lord. To be consistent, the only correct position would be the pre-trib rapture position.

RAPTURE BEFORE WRATH

All rapture positions, with the exception of post-trib, believe the rapture will take place before the wrath of God is poured out. 1 Thessalonians 1:9 and 5:9 tell us, “… to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.” And, “for God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” The question we are confronted with is when does the wrath of God start? When this is determined, we then know that the rapture has to take place prior to this time.

God has given the authority of judgment into the hands of His Son. John 5:22 and 5:27 state, “For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son” and “…hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.” It is clear that when God executes judgment, it is through the Son.

In the fifth chapter of Revelation, we have a scroll sealed with seven seals. The question is asked by an angel, “Who is worthy to open the book (scroll), and to loose the seals thereof?” The answer to this question is vitally important because the one identified will be opening the 7 seal judgments, along with the subsequent trumpet and bowl judgments that will be poured out upon this earth. Verse nine provides the answer, “And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book (scroll), and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.” The Lamb of God, Jesus, is the only one worthy to open the book and, as John already told us in his gospel, He will be pouring out these judgments upon the world.

In the first seal judgment, Revelation 6:1, we are told “the Lamb opened one of the seals.” In fact, the Lamb, Jesus, opens all the seal judgments, vss. 3, 5, 7, 9, 12. Then, with unmistakable clarity, we are told, “For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” This is the wrath of God from which believers are promised deliverance. His wrath has already commenced. His wrath is initiated with these seal judgments. The seal judgments start at the beginning of the Tribulation period and so the Church must be raptured before the Tribulation period starts in order to “deliver us from the wrath to come.”

THE BLESSED HOPE

Three lines of evidence have been presented for the validity of the pre-trib rapture view. The scripture passages examined, to this writer, leave no possibility for the mid-trib, post-trib, and pre-wrath position to be the correct biblical position. It is this writer’s conviction that the Bible supports the pre-trib rapture and that born-again Christians will be taken off this earth before the Tribulation period begins. This is truly a blessed hope!

ENDNOTES

1. Marvin Rosenthal, The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1990), p. 281-82.
2. For an in depth treatment of this entire prophecy including why these are weeks of years I recommend The Coming Prince by Sir Robert Anderson published by Kregel.
3. Quoted from Maranatha, Our Lord Come: A Definitive Study of the Rapture of the Church, Dr. Renald Showers, (Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, 1995) p. 129
4. Ibid. p. 143
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#38
Linda,

Your "Blessed Hope" is for salvation, not protection from trials and tribulations. In fact, Jesus promised trials and tribulations. Wrath is final judgment wrath, not Tribulation wrath which some if of God and some of Satan. As I pointed out above we could be kept from God's Tribulation wrath by simply following His word, we don't have to be flown off to heaven. Your arguments are man-made rationale for why there needs to be a Rapture. The problem is this rationale doesn't manifest itself into an actual Rapture teaching by Jesus or of any Biblical author.

I would happy to tear apart Mr. Robinson's work (USING ACTUAL SCRIPTURE which is germane to the argument) when I have time but I am off to church myself. Again, I will take God's word over Man's word any day, especially when Man's word is trying to alter God's word.

I see a big pattern here with Pre-Tribbers. Every time I cite scripture, someone comes back with an article that some guy wrote where they make a bunch of scripture twisting arguments trying to get the Word to fit their beliefs rather than the other way around.
 
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Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#39
How do these 2 verese not end the debate?

Mattithyah 24:29-30, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

1 Corinthians 15:52, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed."

"Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days"
"And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven"
Does it get any clearer?
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
2,551
113
#40
Actually Rev 3:10 is more destructive to Pre-Trib Rapture teaching than I first thought.

First, what is it the Philadelphia church is being complimented for? My command to persevere. What are they "persevering" against? Certainly not an early fly-away rapture. This is anything suggests Philly is on earth during at least some of the Tribulation, does it not?

The English word used was "keep" not "protect." The Lord has other ways to keep people from something besides to protect them. If the Lord is going to "TEST" those who dwell on earth we can assume some will pass and some will fail. Can we assume "Strong" Christians pass and "Weak" Christians fail? To be "Tested" could mean to be called before the Anti-Christ and have to profess God to the death or worship the Beast. If you worship the Beast - you lose. So, perhaps the Lord is going to spare Philly by having them killed early on without being put to the test. We do see a lot of dead Tribulation era saints in heaven, more than any one can count.

This thinking totally agrees with Zech 13 where the Lord is testing Israel so now we see the Lord testing the church. Rev 3:10 is a pretty damaging verse for you Pre-Tribbers.
I am not going to lie I expected this, you see the rapture is often likened to the days of noah or sodom. both of them a small group of people were saved from sudden destruction. as in the rapture there will be a small portion of christians going as described in revelations as the one church he had nothing against. This is the church that is truly his own( a body of christ) although many christians think they will be going in the rapture only to find out they got left behind. and the persevering he is refering to is the perseverance we face everyday because we long to go home and be with him and long for the rapture to happen but day by day it does not happen but we persevere by faith. This verse does not in any way destroy the pretribe if you know how the pretribe works and the details of it. for someone who is not open to the idea and refuses to believe it at all costs you have a small chance of seeing it in scripture, it is not impossible because God may choose to open your eyes but if you are not willing to understand it and have a hope of going home soon then I leave that to you and God