Scripture only?

[Grandpa]

Here is the answer from post #49:
Reading the bible and praying to the Lord. Asking for Wisdom, Knowledge and Discernment...

I do not reject it, but it is a circular argument for those who agree with the new definition, as these are traditions proper to only some parts of Christianity. In some parts of Christianity, the statements of the Bible, and the definitions and results of wisdom and discernment are instead left to certain early writers. That is not the same tradition of how to answer these questions. As it stands now, we have a standoff. Some of us are advocating post 49, as you. Others are advocating the tradition of learning from these early writers. Each says they get affirmation for what they believe when they pray. I am hoping we can go further back, and determine how much truth there is to either position.

In regard to the statement in this post, both groups of Christianity feel that their respective tradition is in agreement with the Word of God, as they read it differently, having been taught to do so by different writers.

That is the whole point inside my post. If a tradition of men has to be taught it is ok by men then it is not a tradition of God. Especially when it is so easy to show it is against scripture.

The traditions of God don't go against His Word, ever. If it seems like a tradition of men might be against scripture and it takes a whole bunch of explanation and twisting of scripture to try and show it is not, then it is wrong. No amount of "church fathers" opinions matter if they go against God's Word in the scriptures.

Trusting the opinions of men you consider infallible is the entire problem. In mens desire for a religion they have made the word of God of no effect. If people can be taught that certain parts of the bible don't mean what they plainly say then the whole bible can be twisted to mean whatever the "infallible church fathers" claim. Which is why the early church in certain denominations didn't want their congregation to obtain their own bibles. These same denominations tell their congregation that they can't interpret the bible for themselves, they must be taught by the church only and only their interpretation is the "truth". And that teaching goes against scripture too!!!


We must strip all that away and read the bible for ourselves. Studying to show ourselves approved. Seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit who teaches us.

Men, in their vanity, wish to place other men under their control and authority. Anywhere in life where there is an opportunity for power and authority you will find vain, corrupt men exploiting the position. This oppression of men is in all aspects of our lives. Our only chance for Liberty is by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 23:1-17
1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

I wonder if you see this???

 

[Geometar]

The Orthodox Church has established the common belief in the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, Amen.
The idea behind a "secret rapture" before the second coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ "taking away Christians" before the Apocalypse of our Blessed Apostle St. John unravel is a 17th Century Protestant interpretation of St. Pauls letter.
Christ is in our midst!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Orthodox Church has established the common belief in the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, Amen.

No, No church has established this. God did in his word. Be warry of giving credit to man for anything, this would include a denomination or church, this is a dangerous presupposition which leads us to follow men and not God.

The idea behind a "secret rapture" before the second coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ "taking away Christians" before the Apocalypse of our Blessed Apostle St. John unravel is a 17th Century Protestant interpretation of St. Pauls letter.
Christ is in our midst!

well I never stated I believed in a pre rapture. thus this is not the point in question.

the point was. they guy said there was no thing because it was not in scripture. which I proved wrong, for there is such a thing..do you agree or disagree?? and if you disagree. based on what evidence?

ps. Of course many doctrines would not have been taught before that time, before that time anyone who believed different were killed, jailed, had all their property taken away and sent to an island which they had no contact with anyone else, and many other things.. that is why. it does not prove they are false. All it does is prove who had power at the time.. It was not until this pwer was removed from the roman church that these other beliefs started to come out. because people were not forced to believe romes way, but could study for themselves.

 

[Geometar]

But my Church has established belifs about 2nd coming of Christ.That mean we use only that way,no new doctrines.
And Orthodox do not believe in Rapture.
And of course,Orthodox Church never took anyone land,prisoned someone or killed someone.But called him to repent.

 

[kenisyes]

That is the whole point inside my post. If a tradition of men has to be taught it is ok by men then it is not a tradition of God. Especially when it is so easy to show it is against scripture.

The traditions of God don't go against His Word, ever. If it seems like a tradition of men might be against scripture and it takes a whole bunch of explanation and twisting of scripture to try and show it is not, then it is wrong. No amount of "church fathers" opinions matter if they go against God's Word in the scriptures.

Trusting the opinions of men you consider infallible is the entire problem. In mens desire for a religion they have made the word of God of no effect. If people can be taught that certain parts of the bible don't mean what they plainly say then the whole bible can be twisted to mean whatever the "infallible church fathers" claim. Which is why the early church in certain denominations didn't want their congregation to obtain their own bibles. These same denominations tell their congregation that they can't interpret the bible for themselves, they must be taught by the church only and only their interpretation is the "truth". And that teaching goes against scripture too!!!


We must strip all that away and read the bible for ourselves. Studying to show ourselves approved. Seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit who teaches us.

Men, in their vanity, wish to place other men under their control and authority. Anywhere in life where there is an opportunity for power and authority you will find vain, corrupt men exploiting the position. This oppression of men is in all aspects of our lives. Our only chance for Liberty is by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 23:1-17
1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

I wonder if you see this???

I agree with your opinion. That's not the point of what I am driving at. Who showed you the Bible first? Who printed it? Who preached on it, that you should read it? In every case it was a human being. Now you can say the Holy Spirit led them to choose it, print it, study it, recommend it, and I would agree. The problem is, that there is no way to prove this to people who do not agree. They can just as easily argue the men they trust taught them to be careful how they read Scripture, and taught them a paradigm that is different from our own how to do it. They cannot prove to us that the Holy Spirit told their men what the men taught. So far, it is all opinion and all a standoff in opinion. To say we can prove ours from Scripture is thus a circular argument; we should read Scripture because Scripture says so.

A great concern of my whole life in ministry is that we have several factions in Christianity who wish to condemn each other's way of looking at Jesus. It seems like this is not what Jesus prayed for in John at the Last Supper (that they all may be one), and is a bad witness to the world, as well as diluting the gifts that the Body has available.

This thread shows this problem quite acutely, and I am hoping we can find a direction to go, so that this can be fixed.

To state it clearly. My opinion is similar to yours. Anything the Holy Spirit is alleged to have told me, needs to be checked against the Scriptures, the sense of Christians that I know are committed to Jesus as am I, and long-term by the fruit it bears. I would like to hold others to the same standard. Geometar has made the statement many times that his Orthodox church has done this, and therefore the teachings he is quoting to us are correct. I share with many in this thread the fear based on the experience that there are other churches that make the same statement about things that I know are not correct. When Geometar has been asked to give the Scriptural background, he has done so, but not to everyone's satisfaction. I am putting forth the idea that we need to discuss what it means to have a Godly tradition, so we can try to determine why the disagreement continues.

I also agree on where the false traditions have come from. But again, it is pastors in authority who preach that we should read the word, some of them who do what the Scribes and Pharisees in the passage you quote do. So true traditions come from those in authority also.

Reading the Bible yourself is what has led to the tens of thousands of denominations we have, many of which are arguing with each other, and saying each other is false.

 

[layman316]

Dearest Lord Father Almighty please bring peace to this forum and let us reason together as we discus Your Word. Help us get closer together as we talk to one another about the Good News of Your love. For this I pray, Amen.

Please do not copy/paste a whole website, if that is what you would like post a link.


Hello all, I do not understand how we are to believe in scripture only if the bible never says that. The bible says clearly to listen to the Word of God. Some people have explained to me that the bible is inspired by God thus making it his word.

This reasoning opened me more questions than answers. God never said behold I will send you a book. God sent His Son, and Jesus never wrote a book. Christians began to divide by multitudes once the bible made it to the printing press. And if that was not all, every person that reads the bible has a different take on the scripture. I am sure God wants us to love one another not fight one another.

Other questions raised are how did people get saved in the past if the bible was not around until close to the 400AC, and it was not mass produced until recent in history. That would make for a great multitude of people who did not read the bible, and still today many people can not read. How are they to be saved?

How do you know if God sent His Son if you don't trust the Scriptures?

2Ti_3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

 

[Rock022]

How do you know if God sent His Son if you don't trust the Scriptures?

2Ti_3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

1 Timothy 3 KJV
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.