Sin Confession: A Waste of Breath?

[phil36]

Let me simplify the argument into premises with a conclusion.

1. Sin experiences remission through blood shed (Hebrews 9:22).
2. Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood for sin.
3. Therefore our sin has experienced remission by the blood of Jesus.

Lets move onto the next premises to another reached conclusion.

1. Blood shed is required for forgiveness of sin, our sin is forgiven by the blood of Jesus.

2. Our sin is forgiven by the blood of Jesus, therefore no more offering for sin is required (Hebrews 10:28).

3. Since the forgiveness of sin requires bloodshed, and Jesus shed His blood for our sin, we have forgiveness for our sins (Hebrews 10:11-14).

4. Our present sin is forgiven (has experienced remission) by the shed blood of Jesus Christ because there is no other offering for sin by which mankind can be forgiven (Hebrews 10:28) and since Jesus is that once and for all sacrifice for sin and will not go back up on the cross for our sin, our present sin must be forgiven or else.

5. Either we are forgiven (of all sin) or Jesus' bloodshed was not sufficient for the forgiveness of our sins (Hebrews 9:26).

6. Jesus sacrifice is sufficient and we are forgiven of all sin (Hebrews 10:12-14, Hebrews 10:15-22).


All of this logically follows. Either Christ's sacrifice was sufficient or Christ must get back up on the cross for our sins because sin only experiences remission through bloodshed and He is that very sacrifice. None of the premises are taken out of thin air, they are supported with scripture. Our sin must be forgiven, not through any other means than Christ's sacrifice, because He is the means by which bloodshed happened for sin to experience remission. It is Jesus or nothing.

Hi BTw,

You don't seem to understand the distinction between Justification and Sanctification (I believe this has been pointed out to you already)!

Take for example a quote from your post #90. Not only does it show you don't seem to have grasped the distinction but you also go into more error in handling what God says about himself - heres your quote:

What you are trying to express is known as "parental forgiveness." There is no such thing with God because Jesus has torn the veil in two. He took care of what alienated us from God. That is, He paid for our sin and now our sins of scarlet are as white as snow. BTW #90

God says you are wrong: (please take note of the warning in v8!)

5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

 

[Hizikyah]

Before people had to continually make sacrifices, Yahshua has made THE Sacrifice once and for all, so if we accept that we do not have to make sacrifices to teach us sin deserves death, yet we still need to ask for forgiveness as Scripture clearly states, the doctrine of not asking for forgiveness is a very sociopathic doctrine IMO.

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 Timothy 4:3-4, “For there shall be a time when they shall not bear sound teaching, but according to their own desires, they shall heap up for themselves teachers tickling the ear, and they shall indeed turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to myths.”
[/FONT]

 

[BenFTW]

Hi BTw,

You don't seem to understand the distinction between Justification and Sanctification (I believe this has been pointed out to you already)!

Take for example a quote from your post #90. Not only does it show you don't seem to have grasped the distinction but you also go into more error in handling what God says about himself - heres your quote:



God says you are wrong: (please take note of the warning in v8!)

5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

Forgiveness is not in the scripture you have shared. Correction is. He is chastising us, or chastening us to help us grow in character. Parental forgiveness is not found here, God has not alienated Himself from us because of sin here. Justification and sanctification are two different things, you are correct. Often times people do confuse the two, especially those of a legalistic background (works save mindset).

I don't disagree that God chastises His children, nor did I suggest otherwise.

 

[phil36]

Forgiveness is not in the scripture you have shared. Correction is. He is chastising us, or chastening us to help us grow in character. Parental forgiveness is not found here, God has not alienated Himself from us because of sin here. Justification and sanctification are two different things, you are correct. Often times people do confuse the two, especially those of a legalistic background (works save mindset).

I don't disagree that God chastises His children, nor did I suggest otherwise.

Oh the Irony,

And why would a Father chastise his children?

 

[preacher4truth]

Oh the Irony,

And why would a Father chastise his children?

For not believing in hyper grace?

 

[BenFTW]

Oh the Irony,

And why would a Father chastise his children?

I fail to see the point. You are correlating God's forgiveness with His chastisement, but God's word says that we are forgiven because of Jesus and His bloodshed, not God's chastening. I take no issue with God building character in us, and righteousness. What is ironic here? Please remain cordial.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

Let me simplify the argument into premises with a conclusion.

1. Sin experiences remission through blood shed (Hebrews 9:22).
2. Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood for sin.
3. Therefore our sin has experienced remission by the blood of Jesus.

Lets move onto the next premises to another reached conclusion.

1. Blood shed is required for forgiveness of sin, our sin is forgiven by the blood of Jesus.

2. Our sin is forgiven by the blood of Jesus, therefore no more offering for sin is required (Hebrews 10:28).

3. Since the forgiveness of sin requires bloodshed, and Jesus shed His blood for our sin, we have forgiveness for our sins (Hebrews 10:11-14).

4. Our present sin is forgiven (has experienced remission) by the shed blood of Jesus Christ because there is no other offering for sin by which mankind can be forgiven (Hebrews 10:28) and since Jesus is that once and for all sacrifice for sin and will not go back up on the cross for our sin, our present sin must be forgiven or else.

5. Either we are forgiven (of all sin) or Jesus' bloodshed was not sufficient for the forgiveness of our sins (Hebrews 9:26).

6. Jesus sacrifice is sufficient and we are forgiven of all sin (Hebrews 10:12-14, Hebrews 10:15-22).


All of this logically follows. Either Christ's sacrifice was sufficient or Christ must get back up on the cross for our sins because sin only experiences remission through bloodshed and He is that very sacrifice. None of the premises are taken out of thin air, they are supported with scripture. Our sin must be forgiven, not through any other means than Christ's sacrifice, because He is the means by which bloodshed happened for sin to experience remission. It is Jesus or nothing.

We confess our sins what the Holy Spirit reveals to us so that the Believer will stay in fellowship with God (in the light). We then receive a bonus for the forgiveness of all other sins we don't no about. When there is unconfessed sin in a Believers life your prayers are hindered (you are in the dark). The information flow stops, ceases, lessens, drips, rather than being full force with more data on God fulfilling what His word proclaims He will and can do. When the Believer continues not to be wise and follow Gods way they begin to deteriorate to the point of having our consciences seared (the result is a "hardened heart". A hardened heart equals unbelief which is the #1 sin in the bible that could develop into a "seared conscience".).

According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. Romans 11:8

For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. Romans 11:21-22
[SUB][/SUB]

 

[Hizikyah]

Hebrews 10:26-31, “For if we sin purposely after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a slaughter offering for sins, This type of sinning is in contrast with sinning ignorantly but some fearsome anticipation of judgment, and a fierce fire which is about to consume the opponents. Anyone who has disregarded the Torah of Mosheh dies without compassion on the witness of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think shall he deserve who has trampled the Son of YHWH underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was set apart as common, and insulted the Spirit of favor? For we know Him who has said, “Vengeance is Mine, I shall repay, says יהוה.” And again, “יהוה shall judge His people.”

Yirmeyahu/Jeremiah 13-1-10, “Thus יהוה said to me, “Go and get yourself a linen girdle, and put it on your loins, but do not put it in water. So I bought a girdle according to the word of יהוה, and put it on my loins. And the word of יהוה came to me the second time, saying, Take the girdle that you have bought, which is on your loins, and arise, go to the Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole in the rock.” And I went and hid it by the Euphrates, as יהוה commanded me. And it came to be after many days that יהוה said to me, “Arise, go to the Euphrates, and take from there the girdle which I commanded you to hide there. So I went to the Euphrates and dug, and I took the girdle from the place where I had hidden it. And there was the girdle, ruined. It was completely useless. And the word of יהוה came to me, saying, Thus said יהוה, ‘Thus I ruin the pride of Yehuḏah and the great pride of Yerushalayim. This evil people, who refuse to hear My Words, who walk in the stubbornness of their heart, and walk after other mighty ones to serve them and to bow themselves to them, is like this girdle which is completely useless.”

John 15:4-6, “Stay in Me, and I stay in you. As the branch is unable to bear fruit of itself, unless it stays in the vine, so neither you, unless you stay in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who stays in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit. Because without Me you are able to do naught! If anyone does not stay in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up. And they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."

 

[Johnny_B]

Why do I have to confess my sins for forgiveness when Jesus as my High Priest was the last and once and for all sacrifice for sin? Not only this, scripture says that He isn't like the priests of old having to often sacrifice for his sins and the people's sins, otherwise He would've suffered since the foundation of the world (since He, Himself, is that very sacrifice; Hebrews 9:25-28).

So, Jesus' blood isn't like the blood of bulls and goats, it actually takes away sin (Hebrews 10:4,10-14). The penalty is paid. There is no other means by which forgiveness of sin occurs, because the shedding of blood must occur in order for sins to experience remission (Hebrews 9:22). Jesus shed His blood for the remission of our sins. Hence, forgiveness for any and all present sin.

If our sin is not forgiven, not to be said without reverence, Christ would have to get back on the cross according to scripture, but as scripture also says, His blood isn't like that of the sacrificial animals and He is an eternal priest, our High Priest (not dying like previous priests and with an eternal priesthood in the order of Melchizedek). This means that He is able to save us completely because He lives forever interceding on our behalf (Hebrews 7:25).

There are points being made here, but also a question to consider. I understand repentance is still necessary in this life, especially in consideration of things pertaining to life. What we are going to experience, consequences and benefits, etc. Why under the New Covenant would a person seek out forgiveness from God through sin confession when in Christ and through Christ [as our High Priest] we have the forgiveness of sin, and our sins through the shedding of Christ's blood have experienced remission?

Why ask for what we already have? The NT clearly says to forgive others because God for Christ's sake has forgiven us (Ephesians 4:32). So, instead of glorifying the Advocate and our High Priest, who is the propitiation (the appeasement, if you will) for our sins, as 1 John 2 emphasizes to the "beloved" (that's you and me), why would we make the forgiveness of sin something we have to attain instead of a reality we walk in through Jesus Christ? Why seek forgiveness on an eternal scale through any other avenue than God's Son, in the New Covenant?

PS: This was a response to another thread that I felt could make a good topic. Since I've been thinking of making this thread lately, I decided to copy it from http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/158908-christians-under-grace.html#post3301201 and create this post.

The Greek word used here is not the word for a verbal confession, it is the word for an agreement in so no wasted breath to fulfill I John 1:9.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

 

[phil36]

I fail to see the point. You are correlating God's forgiveness with His chastisement, but God's word says that we are forgiven because of Jesus and His bloodshed, not God's chastening. I take no issue with God building character in us, and righteousness. What is ironic here? Please remain cordial.

I fully understand what you are saying, however, your post above just further demonstrates your confusion between Justification and Sanctification. Yes we are saved once and for all from condemnation, Yet we still sin, so we ask our Father, to forgive us for those sins. When we sin we are not walking in close relationship with God, repentance brings us back into to right relationship with our loving Father.

Can I ask about your statement? Are you referring to God's forgiveness when we become born again (justified) and declared Just, and therefore the condemnation is removed, or are you referring to what John is talking about in 1 John where John is talking to those who are already JUSTIFIED. (Remember that John is telling those who are already Justified to ask God for forgiveness when they sin...Heres your statement:

You are correlating God's forgiveness with His chastisement

So again I ask you what reasons would God chastise his beloved children? To make it easier, when a child is bad, a good father would chastise them, he would expect them to admit what they had done and be apologetic for it. (Hint Hint 1 John).

 

[BenFTW]

The Greek word used here is not the word for a verbal confession, it is the word for an agreement in so no wasted breath to fulfill I John 1:9.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

That is very interesting. Thanks for sharing. Any links or evidence to show me this? It would make sense in how it seems to appear, that people are being invited into the fellowship (with God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ) and so people would need to come in agreement with God about their sinful state in order to receive forgiveness and be cleansed from all unrighteousness.

This topic often comes up with people stating that if you say you have no sin then you call God a liar, but what they fail to realize is that no one is saying they have no sin (at least in the discussion) only that their sin is forgiven through Jesus Christ. World of difference.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

The Greek word used here is not the word for a verbal confession, it is the word for an agreement in so no wasted breath to fulfill I John 1:9.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

That is not true. It means to speak the same, to agree. The word "If" means conditional.

 

[Hizikyah]

The Greek word used here is not the word for a verbal confession, it is the word for an agreement in so no wasted breath to fulfill I John 1:9.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

One of its root words is "logos " so I believe it is to confess in prayer to Yah

1 Timothy 2:5, “For there is one Father and one Mediator between the Father and men, the Man Messiah יהושע,”

After all we still have a High Priest, what duties is He fulfilling in that role?


“confess” is word #G3670 ὁμολογέω homologeo (ho-mo-lo-ǰe'-ō) v.
1. to affirm.
2. to admit, acknowledge.
3. (specially) to confess (guilt).
[from a compound of the base of G3674 and G3056]
KJV: con- (pro-)fess, confession is made, give thanks, promise
Root(s): G3674, G3056


G3056 λόγος logos (lo'-ğos) n.
1. a word, something said (including the thought).
2. (by implication) a saying or expression.
3. (by extension) a discourse (on a topic).
4. (informally) a conversation (on a topic).
5. (thus) a matter.
6. (also) a reasoning (of the mental faculty).
7. (hence) a reason (i.e. a motive).
8. (negatively) a rationalization (i.e. application of plausible reasoning on a faulty premise).
9. (by further extension) a calculation, computation, or an account (as an accounting of).
10. (hence) a reckoning or an inventory (as called to account).
11. (of asking) a question.
12. (specially, with the article in John) the Word of God (capitalized), the Divine Expression, the Creator, the Word of Yahweh (i.e. the Anointed One, whether pre- or post-incarnate; that is, when Jesus is not embodied in the unglorified state of the old flesh of clay man, being quite dependent upon the Holy Spirit in that humble state of subsistence; see John 1:1-14 and Philippians 2:6-11; Also see context 15 below).
13. (special use #2) the “Holy-word” of God (as the Holy Scriptures of the Old Testament).
14. (special use #3) the “Redemptive-word” of God (as the full counsel and instruction of the Good News of Redemption through trust in Jesus Anointed, our Savior and eternal High Priest; not merely its announcement).
15. (Note #1) (the three INTERTWINED MEANINGS of “Word† of God” and “word of God” can refer to a few simultaneous (and inseparable) contexts resulting in an intentional double or triple entendre; of special note is Hebrews 4:12 which should be understood simultaneously in all three contexts: 12, 14 and 13, in that order of priority).
16. (Note #2) (often, “the word” is used as a shortened form of “the word of God” throughout the New Testament, connoting any these preceding contexts/concepts; see Acts 4:29, Acts 4:31).
17. (Note #3) (Redemptive-word: this is the clear and instructive communication of the promised Redemption with sources including Old Testament passages from the Torah-Law, the Holy Prophets, and the Psalms, and in the whole New Testament: the Holy Angels at Jesus' birth, John the Immerser, Jesus our Glorious Savior, first Ambassadors who were eyewitnesses of these things, including Paul as one born “out-of-season,” also Mark and Luke, and through the continuously active and enabling ministry of the promised Holy Spirit who reminds us of and tutors us in these eternal matters).
[from G3004]
KJV: account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work
Root(s): G3004
Compare: G4487
See also: G3048, G3049, H1697

 

[reneweddaybyday]

That is very interesting. Thanks for sharing. Any links or evidence to show me this? It would make sense in how it seems to appear, that people are being invited into the fellowship (with God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ) and so people would need to come in agreement with God about their sinful state in order to receive forgiveness and be cleansed from all unrighteousness.

This topic often comes up with people stating that if you say you have no sin then you call God a liar, but what they fail to realize is that no one is saying they have no sin (at least in the discussion) only that their sin is forgiven through Jesus Christ. World of difference.

The word "confess" in 1 John 1:9 is the Greek word homologōmen (from homologeó).


HELPS Word-studies defines homologeó as: properly, to voice the same conclusion, i.e. agree ("confess"); to profess (confess) because in full agreement; to align with (endorse).

Strong's Greek: 3670. ὁμολογέω (homologeó) -- to speak the same, to agree

 

[oldethennew]

Should not The Master bathe the 'dog that has mange'?!?!?!?

 

[Nehemiah6]

This topic often comes up with people stating that if you say you have no sin then you call God a liar, but what they fail to realize is that no one is saying they have no sin (at least in the discussion) only that their sin is forgiven through Jesus Christ. World of difference.

In which case the apostle John was wasting his breath! If your present sins were AUTOMATICALLY forgiven (as you claim) then why would John and the other apostles be talking about sin in the believer's life?

Instead of hardening your erroneous beliefs, you should be thankful that many have shown you your error. And Scripture is given for reproof and correction (2 Tim 3:16,17).

 

[joefizz]

Well said.

I was gonna mention Jesus interceding for us. Didn’t do so but you did.

Thanks for doing so

Yep no problem!

 

[joaniemarie]

This topic you brought up here Ben on 1 John 1:9 also helps us in discovering the meaning of other Bible verses. Knowing our salvation be established ONLY on Jesus and Him alone must flow through into all other interpretations of Scripture. Our works after salvation still do not perfect us in Christ as some believe.

I see the truth of faith in Christ and His finished work on the cross on our behalf filters into everything in the believers life. Many people are confused about Hebrews 10:26 simply because they don't understand what Jesus actually fully paid for. Instead Christians are busy looking at their own works and not Jesus.


Cont. from commentary notes;

Some people hear the good news of God’s grace and shrink back. They cannot believe it. “It’s too good to be true,” they say. “I’d better cover myself by doing works.”

Do you see the danger? YOU CANNOT COVER YOURSELF This is idol-worship. You are elevating yourself to co-savior with Christ. You are insulting the Spirit of grace by trying to pay for what God has already given you.

This is why sermons that put the emphasis on you and your performance are dangerous. Don’t buy into any message that purports to give you a LIST of keys or steps that will help you achieve/accomplish/appropriate WHAT YOU ALREADY HAVE.

It is impossible for the blood of bulls and the sweat of men to take away sins and it is faithless to strive for what you already have (every good thing!).
According to Hebrews there are only two kinds of people; those who don’t enter because of their unbelief and those who believe and are saved.

Sin is not the variable; FAITH IS. Where does faith come from? Jesus! He is the Author and Perfecter of our faith (Heb 12:2).
Fix your eyes on Him.

 

[Speak2Me]

The point still stands. Regardless of historical accuracy to the truth, revelation is always growing. Let me restate that before you lose your mind. Perception of already given revelation is always expanding as we continue to grow in the truth of God's word. Nothing new is being added, only revealed just as it happened at the Reformation. There all along, only our eyes are opened.

I, again, find no reason to provide a quote. I've provided scripture which should be your source for truth not theologians of the past.

I find a reason that you do. If you want to argue your point, do so, but use evidence. Inquiring minds want to know, and you're not so special to be exempt from being pulled on the carpet for your beliefs. This happens every day for others, so why not you?

 

[joaniemarie]

And why does this so annoy our religious mindsets? Because it can't handle not "DOING SOMETHING" back.

Doing something back in gratitude for what Jesus has done is a good thing but it has to do with our "following" because now we are sheep of His pasture. The works we do now are done as it's described in Gal.2:20

[SUP]20 [/SUP]I have been crucified with Christ [in Him I have shared His crucifixion]; it is no longer I who live, but Christ (the Messiah) lives in me; and the life I now live in the body I live by faith in (by adherence to and reliance on and complete trust in) the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself up for me.


Note., the reliance and adherence is about the COMPLETE TRUST in the SON OF GOD.... Who loved me and gave Himself for me. That is the reliance and adherence. Not our works. We don't adhere to the works of the law anymore and trust in that anymore. It's our faith in HIM and in HIS finished work.

That is beautiful and springs to life the freedom He died to give us. So we can walk in newness of life and not in the old letter of the law. So we can put off our old manner of life and walk in newness of life.