The phony evangelism of Calvinism
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So one's salvation hinges upon the WORK a Calvinist does in evangelizing?
Would salvation be possible without this WORK of evangelizing?
Does a Calvinist have a choice or not in doing this WORK of evangelizing?
If a Calvinist does this WORK of evangelizing, is he trying to earn salvation?
Since one is predestined to be saved, he can refuse to do this WORK of evangelizing and still be saved. If so, then the WORK of evangelizing is not necessary. What purpose would the WORK of evangelizing do if it cannot change, undo what God has already predetermined? If "Joe" was predetermined to be saved then "Joe' WILL BE SAVED whether you do any evangelizing or not. Or is "Joe's" salvation dependent upon your WORK of evangelizing to him?
[After reading my post, will a Calvinist ry and deny that evangelizing is a WORK?]
Would salvation be possible without this WORK of evangelizing?
Does a Calvinist have a choice or not in doing this WORK of evangelizing?
If a Calvinist does this WORK of evangelizing, is he trying to earn salvation?
Since one is predestined to be saved, he can refuse to do this WORK of evangelizing and still be saved. If so, then the WORK of evangelizing is not necessary. What purpose would the WORK of evangelizing do if it cannot change, undo what God has already predetermined? If "Joe" was predetermined to be saved then "Joe' WILL BE SAVED whether you do any evangelizing or not. Or is "Joe's" salvation dependent upon your WORK of evangelizing to him?
[After reading my post, will a Calvinist ry and deny that evangelizing is a WORK?]
Did Israelites of their own choice refuse to listen and harden themselves or were they predetermined by God not to listen and be hardened?
According to Calvinism, God predetermined they could not listen, God hardened them making them obstinate where they would not hear and understand.
So what sense was there in God sending them prophets if God already predetermined and hardened their hearts where they would not hear? Why would God condemn them for not hearing when it was God Himself who made/caused/forced them to not hear?
According to Calvinism, God predetermined they could not listen, God hardened them making them obstinate where they would not hear and understand.
So what sense was there in God sending them prophets if God already predetermined and hardened their hearts where they would not hear? Why would God condemn them for not hearing when it was God Himself who made/caused/forced them to not hear?
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1455-calvinism-and-the-great-commission
Calvinism and the Great Commission
By Wayne Jackson
John Calvin (1509-64) was a religious reformer and theologian. The basic premise of his theology was the absolute sovereignty (right to reign) of God, out of which evolved his misguided theory of “predestination.” The Swiss reformer believed that human “free will” was destroyed by man’s “original sin”; thus, the innate power to yield to the will of God was lost forever.
Nonetheless, Calvin contended that God, by virtue of his sovereign will, predetermined to save some, whom he called the “elect,” but condemn others—the “non-elect.” In his famous work, Institutes of the Christian Religion, the reformer wrote: “No one who wishes to be thought religious dares outright to deny predestination, by which God chooses some for the hope of life, and condemns others to eternal death” (1975, III.xxi).
Later this ideology was incorporated into the Westminster Confession of Faith (1643). Note the following (Article III):
God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass. . . . By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death (Bettenson 1947, 347).
There are many modern advocates of Calvinism, particularly among the Presbyterians and some Baptists. One of these was James Montgomery Boice, who for more than thirty years preached for the Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia. In one of his books, Boice relates the following incident in the life of John Gerstner, a professor at the Pittsburgh Theological Seminary. One of Gerstner’s students was R. C. Sproul, now a popular preacher and modern advocate of Calvinism.
Gerstner had been lecturing on the theme of predestination. At the end of class he asked his students this question: “If predestination is true, why should we be involved in evangelism?” One by one the students replied: “I don’t know”; “It beats me”; “I’ve always wondered about that.” Finally the professor came to Sproul. The question was repeated.
After fumbling for words, young Sproul finally answered. Appealing to the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20), he said: “One small point I think we ought to notice here is that God does command us to be involved in evangelism.” Gerstner laughed and conceded that this was the correct response to his question (Boice 1985, 122-23).
That quip, one supposes, was construed to be the solution to the problem of predestination! But, in fact, it answered nothing! It does not even come close to addressing this problem that plagues the dogma of predestination. The Calvinist theory goes something like this:
Humanity, by virtue of its fall in Adam’s “original sin,” lost its ability to make spiritual choices. Accordingly, when one is exposed to the gospel of Christ, no matter how sincere he might be, in his depraved condition he cannot believe it—however hard he may want to, or try.
The sinner is utterly helpless to believe, unless God, by means of a direct operation of the Holy Spirit, opens his heart and empowers him with the “grace” to believe. Upon whom does God decide to pour out this life-changing power? Only those whom he “elected” before the foundation of the world!
These fundamental premises of Calvinism bring us back to the primary question posed earlier. If a person’s salvation was decreed before the foundation of the world, and there is nothing that can be done to alter that, what is the purpose of preaching the gospel to the whole creation when: (a) it would be impossible for the whole creation to believe; (b) the fate of all people already has been “set” (in predetermined theological “concrete” so to speak)?
The fundamental premises of Calvinism may be summed up in this well-known saying of a bygone era:
Such is a maze of incomprehensible confusion. It does not take an Aristotle to conclude that this theological system is beyond the sphere of both inspired Scripture and common sense.
The Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16) contains:
It leaves those who know they are lost with a sense of hopelessness.
It provides no confidence of salvation—for one would have no way of knowing whether he is saved or lost.
It leaves those who believe they are saved with a false sense of security, laboring under the illusion they never can be lost, no matter what they do.
It is thoroughly false and must be renounced by conscientious Bible students.
Sources/Footnotes
Calvinism and the Great Commission
By Wayne Jackson
John Calvin (1509-64) was a religious reformer and theologian. The basic premise of his theology was the absolute sovereignty (right to reign) of God, out of which evolved his misguided theory of “predestination.” The Swiss reformer believed that human “free will” was destroyed by man’s “original sin”; thus, the innate power to yield to the will of God was lost forever.
Nonetheless, Calvin contended that God, by virtue of his sovereign will, predetermined to save some, whom he called the “elect,” but condemn others—the “non-elect.” In his famous work, Institutes of the Christian Religion, the reformer wrote: “No one who wishes to be thought religious dares outright to deny predestination, by which God chooses some for the hope of life, and condemns others to eternal death” (1975, III.xxi).
Later this ideology was incorporated into the Westminster Confession of Faith (1643). Note the following (Article III):
God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass. . . . By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death (Bettenson 1947, 347).
Gerstner had been lecturing on the theme of predestination. At the end of class he asked his students this question: “If predestination is true, why should we be involved in evangelism?” One by one the students replied: “I don’t know”; “It beats me”; “I’ve always wondered about that.” Finally the professor came to Sproul. The question was repeated.
After fumbling for words, young Sproul finally answered. Appealing to the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20), he said: “One small point I think we ought to notice here is that God does command us to be involved in evangelism.” Gerstner laughed and conceded that this was the correct response to his question (Boice 1985, 122-23).
That quip, one supposes, was construed to be the solution to the problem of predestination! But, in fact, it answered nothing! It does not even come close to addressing this problem that plagues the dogma of predestination. The Calvinist theory goes something like this:
Humanity, by virtue of its fall in Adam’s “original sin,” lost its ability to make spiritual choices. Accordingly, when one is exposed to the gospel of Christ, no matter how sincere he might be, in his depraved condition he cannot believe it—however hard he may want to, or try.
The sinner is utterly helpless to believe, unless God, by means of a direct operation of the Holy Spirit, opens his heart and empowers him with the “grace” to believe. Upon whom does God decide to pour out this life-changing power? Only those whom he “elected” before the foundation of the world!
These fundamental premises of Calvinism bring us back to the primary question posed earlier. If a person’s salvation was decreed before the foundation of the world, and there is nothing that can be done to alter that, what is the purpose of preaching the gospel to the whole creation when: (a) it would be impossible for the whole creation to believe; (b) the fate of all people already has been “set” (in predetermined theological “concrete” so to speak)?
The fundamental premises of Calvinism may be summed up in this well-known saying of a bygone era:
- Everyone’s salvation or condemnation was determined before time began.
- Therefore, if one seeks redemption, he cannot find it.
- If he finds it, he cannot obtain it.
- If he obtains it, he cannot lose it!
Such is a maze of incomprehensible confusion. It does not take an Aristotle to conclude that this theological system is beyond the sphere of both inspired Scripture and common sense.
The Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16) contains:
- facts to be believed;
- commands to be obeyed;
- promises to be embraced; and,
- a potential destiny to be avoided.
It leaves those who know they are lost with a sense of hopelessness.
It provides no confidence of salvation—for one would have no way of knowing whether he is saved or lost.
It leaves those who believe they are saved with a false sense of security, laboring under the illusion they never can be lost, no matter what they do.
It is thoroughly false and must be renounced by conscientious Bible students.
Sources/Footnotes
- Boice, James Montgomery. 1985. The Christ of the Empty Tomb. Chicago, IL: Moody.
- Bettenson, Henry. 1947. Documents of the Christian Church. New York, NY: Oxford University Press.
- Calvin, John. 1975 ed. Institutes of the Christian Religion. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
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T
Hey guys just look at the parable of the sower and that will answer your question. I agree with some views of Calvinism for example you cannot lose your salvation this would limit God and you cannot turn your back on God because he God and he is everwhere. However i do not agree with infant baptism because that was made up by the catholic church in the 1200s when they were running out of baptismal water in the church, so to save the water they decided to sprinkle them on there heads as babies. Now when I say you have eternal security I am not saying you take God love for granted because if you are a christian you would want to obey and if you do not really care you were not a christian in the first place. here is the parable of the sower verse [h=3]The Parable of the Sower[/h]13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea. 2 And great crowds gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat down. And the whole crowd stood on the beach. 3 And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, 6 but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. 8 Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears,[a] let him hear.”
Read more at https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+13&version=ESV#oH2xD1JimQUXGo2r.99
Read more at https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+13&version=ESV#oH2xD1JimQUXGo2r.99
T
Good question Sea Bass,
You cannot turn your back on God only God can turn is back on you if reject the holy spirit and choose not to repent, because God is always there no matter where you go in the universe because he is omnipresent. God is the only one who has free will and do whatever he wants. Human have very limited free will, we cannot fly, we cannot create the universe, we do not decide who goes into the new creation the trinity does. Does that make sense? Also I will put a little clarification on what I mean by never saved in the first place with a story. I knew a guy who went to a christian conference and a got saved there because they had a great worship band and a really compelling speaker. After the conference was over no more than 2 weeks later he was back to his old self. He got caught up in the emotionalism and the rush of the conference and he was not a christian in the first place, he was a phony a fake. I hope that is clear sea bass.
You cannot turn your back on God only God can turn is back on you if reject the holy spirit and choose not to repent, because God is always there no matter where you go in the universe because he is omnipresent. God is the only one who has free will and do whatever he wants. Human have very limited free will, we cannot fly, we cannot create the universe, we do not decide who goes into the new creation the trinity does. Does that make sense? Also I will put a little clarification on what I mean by never saved in the first place with a story. I knew a guy who went to a christian conference and a got saved there because they had a great worship band and a really compelling speaker. After the conference was over no more than 2 weeks later he was back to his old self. He got caught up in the emotionalism and the rush of the conference and he was not a christian in the first place, he was a phony a fake. I hope that is clear sea bass.
You poor man. If you knew the goodness of God you would never consider it possible for a Christian to turn his back on Christ. Jesus said not no one nor anything could pluck us from the Fathers hand. No one who has ever tasted of the goodness of God could ever go back to the husks of the world.
The pearl of great price once obtained is never given away.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The pearl of great price once obtained is never given away.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
T
I am sorry to say sea bass you are wrong brother here are some verses.
[h=3]John 10:27-29 ESV / 62 helpful votes[/h]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
[h=3]John 6:37 ESV / 53 helpful votes[/h]All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
The phony evangelism of Arminianism
SeaBass, is it Christian to be dishonest?
Do you willfully fail to go through 6:9? Where the verses are explained as not speaking of Christians, but apostates, that is mere professors?
Where does "free will" occur in Heb 4:11?
You got proof of that one?
Can you prove that the heart of man is not deceitful above all things & desperately wicked & that actions come out of that heart? Can you prove that man does not always act out his nature?
What is your proof of that one?
1 John 2 declares that the apostate was never saved, never "of us," and that the departure proves the apostate was never in the Body of Christ. Moreover, Judas had a demon.
Let Him who dismisses the Lord Jesus as a mere chance giver, repent & trust Him as Savior.'
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for
He shall save His people from their sins.
SeaBass, is it Christian to be dishonest?
Do you willfully fail to go through 6:9? Where the verses are explained as not speaking of Christians, but apostates, that is mere professors?
Where does "free will" occur in Heb 4:11?
You got proof of that one?
Can you prove that the heart of man is not deceitful above all things & desperately wicked & that actions come out of that heart? Can you prove that man does not always act out his nature?
What is your proof of that one?
1 John 2 declares that the apostate was never saved, never "of us," and that the departure proves the apostate was never in the Body of Christ. Moreover, Judas had a demon.
Let Him who dismisses the Lord Jesus as a mere chance giver, repent & trust Him as Savior.'
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for
He shall save His people from their sins.
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S
Ok, if you must use the term Calvinist which I reject its Augustinian. More Calvinist have been faithful to evangelism than anyone else in history. There is no conflict we are commanded by the great commission to spread the gospel and we do it because we dont know or care who is elect. We do it because or Lord ask us to do it.
So you make some bold claims how is Augustinian theology Satanic?
White cant know Gods mine so he is obident.
We dont save anyone we speak the truth in love and let God do what He may or may not do.
So you make some bold claims how is Augustinian theology Satanic?
White cant know Gods mine so he is obident.
We dont save anyone we speak the truth in love and let God do what He may or may not do.
Not in the way you seem to be talking about. Evangelizing would be part of the "calling"
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, 8:29 because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Sonwould be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.
I guess you could say that one's salvation depends on being called by God and that he seems fit to call people through the proclaiming of the gospel. But maybe you and the Calvinist would disagree on whether or not the proclaiming of and call of the gospel is an act of God or act of man. Paul suggests it's an act of God:
So maybe the Calvinist would just say that both the gospel and it's proclamation are works of God. Maybe you could see it differently if you asked yourself whether or not you are proclaiming the gospel of your own power?
Trying to poison the well? I can do that too, I just try to be a little more rational in my dealings with others.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, 8:29 because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Sonwould be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.
I guess you could say that one's salvation depends on being called by God and that he seems fit to call people through the proclaiming of the gospel. But maybe you and the Calvinist would disagree on whether or not the proclaiming of and call of the gospel is an act of God or act of man. Paul suggests it's an act of God:
Gal 2:8 for he who worked through Peter making him an apostle to the circumcised also worked through me in sending me to the Gentiles
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is God’s power for salvation to everyone who believes
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is God’s power for salvation to everyone who believes
So maybe the Calvinist would just say that both the gospel and it's proclamation are works of God. Maybe you could see it differently if you asked yourself whether or not you are proclaiming the gospel of your own power?
Trying to poison the well? I can do that too, I just try to be a little more rational in my dealings with others.
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my dear fishy friend,
how many times do i need to quote this scripture to you?
One of you will say to me:
some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
(Romans 9:19-21)
how many times do i need to quote this scripture to you?
One of you will say to me:
“Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”
But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
(Romans 9:19-21)
G
[SIZE=-1]We must keep in mind that Satan's ultimate ambition is to usurp God's position, (Isaiah 14:13-15, 2 Thes. 2:3,4). Satan cannot make himself holy, but, he can make God appear to be unholy, closing the gap between man's perception of God and Satan. Satan simply assumes the dark side of God. This philosophical merging of God and Satan in effect fulfills Satan's ultimate aspiration. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The danger for Christians, however, is that only one baby step separates the Calvinism, taught in mainstream Evangelical churches, from the logical philosophical conclusion, that God is both good and evil. Ultimately, God is Satan and Satan is God. In the last days this philosophy will facilitate Christians worshipping the Beast. [/SIZE]
PFRS Calvinism - Where Calvinism Leads
[SIZE=-1]The danger for Christians, however, is that only one baby step separates the Calvinism, taught in mainstream Evangelical churches, from the logical philosophical conclusion, that God is both good and evil. Ultimately, God is Satan and Satan is God. In the last days this philosophy will facilitate Christians worshipping the Beast. [/SIZE]
PFRS Calvinism - Where Calvinism Leads
The phony Attempt to Attach satan to Calvinism
For shame, trying to attach satan to Calvinism.
Lets' see you prove that one from the scripture.
Neither Isaiah 14 nor 2 Thes 2 mentions Calvinism.
Now to whom can we attach satan?
Who is it in the Bible who is the accuser of the brethren?
Who is it on this forum?
hum. . . . .
Just who is it that is the accuser of the brethren here???
Could that be gregfl?
For shame, trying to attach satan to Calvinism.
Lets' see you prove that one from the scripture.
Neither Isaiah 14 nor 2 Thes 2 mentions Calvinism.
Now to whom can we attach satan?
Who is it in the Bible who is the accuser of the brethren?
Who is it on this forum?
hum. . . . .
Just who is it that is the accuser of the brethren here???
Could that be gregfl?