thy law is the truth

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homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
15,056
113
63
#41
This is a common teaching, the believer won't do wrong because his nature is changed. Only problem with this is that it is not scriptural...

Jas 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

Now this is speaking of the spirit in man, not the Holy Spirit.

Paul said that his nature was to do wrong and that he had to fight it...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
His only hope of deliverance from this wretched nature was Christ.

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1Ti 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

Why, if a believer's nature is all sweetness and purity, would Paul instruct us to flee these things? Why would we have to FIGHT the good fight? If we automatically do good, why is there SO MUCH INSTRUCTION in the New Testament about how to live and how to fight the good fight? Here is why...

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Conversion is a lifelong process, not a one time event...

Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Not don't misunderstand the word perfect here, it does not mean perfection in the sense that we use it today (this is 1611 English after all)...

perfect:

G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

Thayer has it...

G5046
τέλειος
teleios
Thayer Definition:
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G5056
Citing in TDNT: 8:67, 1161

It means mature, and then he says that if we have any thing contrary, God will show it to us IF...

if we are...

Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

What is thus minded? He was referring to the previous verses...

Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Not counting ourselves as those who have arrived but as those who are pressing forward toward the mark...

2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
You can believe whatever you want to believe, by interpretation, I used to live like a refugee when I was under the Law, I saw what Paul was talking aobut being under a curse, because flesh is weak and can't perform it. Therefore I serve God by the Hidden man of my heart, forsaking flesh and blood daily by
Romans 6:11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord
And to do this I die daily since all sin has been condemned to the flesh by the death of Chirst at the cross

Romans 8:3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
God can only be served in
John 4:23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4:24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
15,056
113
63
#42
This is a common teaching, the believer won't do wrong because his nature is changed. Only problem with this is that it is not scriptural...

Jas 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

Now this is speaking of the spirit in man, not the Holy Spirit.

Paul said that his nature was to do wrong and that he had to fight it...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
His only hope of deliverance from this wretched nature was Christ.

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1Ti 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

Why, if a believer's nature is all sweetness and purity, would Paul instruct us to flee these things? Why would we have to FIGHT the good fight? If we automatically do good, why is there SO MUCH INSTRUCTION in the New Testament about how to live and how to fight the good fight? Here is why...

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Conversion is a lifelong process, not a one time event...

Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Not don't misunderstand the word perfect here, it does not mean perfection in the sense that we use it today (this is 1611 English after all)...

perfect:

G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

Thayer has it...

G5046
τέλειος
teleios
Thayer Definition:
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G5056
Citing in TDNT: 8:67, 1161

It means mature, and then he says that if we have any thing contrary, God will show it to us IF...

if we are...

Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

What is thus minded? He was referring to the previous verses...

Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Not counting ourselves as those who have arrived but as those who are pressing forward toward the mark...

2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
we seem to agree coming from differantangles I do not claim to not ever sin I can't predict any future events,but I can die daily, living day by day, forgetting waht is behind me and press on towards thehigh calling in apprecitiation to God for loving me as deep as he has and does by the Son Christ. I can do nothing about past, or future so the best Ican do is trust daily.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
#44
Matt 24:34 = 23:36 = 16:28 = 10:23

"this generation" = Jesus' Jewish audience of listeners = 1st century AD
This generation...

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The generation that sees all these things?

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

They see this happen did they?

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

They live in a generation when NO FLESH would be saved? That only became possible in the 1950's. the US and the USSR accumulated enough weaponry (nuclear, chemical and biological) to destroy all life off of the planet. Actually, it grew to the point of destroying all life off of the panet about 54 times over.

Mathew 23 is a different chapter, different subject.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Remember there were no chpaters and verses in the original manuscripts, let's read on...

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Mat 17:6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
Mat 17:7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
Mat 17:8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Peter James and John were the ones who did not taste death before seeing this and it was just a vision, not the reality (verse 9).

Mat 10:28

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This occurs after the Millenium...

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

and is at the very least 1003-1/2 years away.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
#45
we seem to agree coming from differantangles I do not claim to not ever sin I can't predict any future events,but I can die daily, living day by day, forgetting waht is behind me and press on towards thehigh calling in apprecitiation to God for loving me as deep as he has and does by the Son Christ. I can do nothing about past, or future so the best Ican do is trust daily.
I think we may be closer than it appears.
 
W

Widdekind

Guest
#46
"this generation" means what it says, Jesus' audience, the people he was talking to, looking at, when he spoke those words

Jesus told Jerusalem "upon you shall come the blood of the Prophets" (Matt 23)

all of those cosmic-sounding references are allusions to OT Apocalyptic Prophesies, re-referenced in Revelation, and are dramatic Prophetic hyperbole. Olivet Discourse = Revelation = OT Apocalypses = 70 AD = w/in Jesus' generation; the Resurrected Jesus lived on to see the destruction of Jerusalem, Jesus being alive in circa 65 AD to reprimand Peter at Rome, per Quo Vadis legend. Nero's persecution was harsh, Peter & Paul were martyred, nearly none of the Apostles survived past 70 AD

Matt 10 = Rev 20 = Judgement vs. bodies & souls to Hell... but, what is the direct relevance ?


This generation...

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The generation that sees all these things?

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

They see this happen did they?

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

They live in a generation when NO FLESH would be saved? That only became possible in the 1950's. the US and the USSR accumulated enough weaponry (nuclear, chemical and biological) to destroy all life off of the planet. Actually, it grew to the point of destroying all life off of the panet about 54 times over.

Mathew 23 is a different chapter, different subject.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Remember there were no chpaters and verses in the original manuscripts, let's read on...

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Mat 17:6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
Mat 17:7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
Mat 17:8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Peter James and John were the ones who did not taste death before seeing this and it was just a vision, not the reality (verse 9).

Mat 10:28

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This occurs after the Millenium...

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

and is at the very least 1003-1/2 years away.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#47
In the new covenant under new laws the law still remaiins the truth, as what king david was talking aobut before Christ came is LOVE, by Faith in God and he said in psalms 100:4 seeing a far off entering God's courts with thanksgving and praise, by Christ, and as Job claimed as well knkowing he had sinned and failed as well, saying he knew his redeener lives
Psalm 100:4Enter into His gates with thanksgiving, And into His courts with praise. Be thankful to Him, and bless His name.
Job 19:25For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth;

These Saints by beleif, saw afar off and gave praise to God, we today are looking back as has taken place what they were looking forward to. We have the victory in Christ past tense, we can rest in God now knowing it has taken place and pronouncing it by the Holy Ghost living through us as the Holy Ghost did through Christ the whole time while here on earth. Christ sent us this gift, read John 16.

Today after the death burial and resurrection of Christ we are in a new covenant actually not new,released from te letter of the law that was put in place to show all our need for God, because none of us are perfect, without the Law no being aware our sinfulness, with the law we are aware and tihs shows us our need for a Savior, which is Chirst.
New Covenant and new law with new priesthood
Hebrews 9:15

And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance

Hebrews 9:16
[ The Mediator’s Death Necessary ] For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Hebrews 9:17For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

Hebrews 7:11[ Need for a New Priesthood ] Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?
Hebrews 7:12For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
People were never under the letter of the law. It was man that did that not God. Do you even know what the covenant is? Do you know why the ark was called the ark of the covenant?
Exodus 34:28 KJV
(28) And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.


Do you know that there is an ark of the covenant in heaven?
Revelation 11:19 KJV

(19) And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and
there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The one made on earth was a copy, the original is in heaven, that means the original copy of the ten commandments is in heaven.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
15,056
113
63
#48
I think we may be closer than it appears.
Which is truly the case with many here posting what they have so far learned from God thrtough christ. So I say lets hear ecah other and always sift all through our hidden man of the hgeart, the Hoply Ghost to teach us truth from any error that would put us or keep us in bondage fro by Christ we are called to freedom. Freedom from what? Worry,stressing out while we are in the middle of adversity. Why?
John 16:33I have told you these things so you may have peace in Me. In the world you will have much trouble. But take hope! I have power over the world!”
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
15,056
113
63
#49
People were never under the letter of the law. It was man that did that not God. Do you even know what the covenant is? Do you know why the ark was called the ark of the covenant?
Exodus 34:28 KJV
(28) And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.


Do you know that there is an ark of the covenant in heaven?
Revelation 11:19 KJV

(19) And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and
there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The one made on earth was a copy, the original is in heaven, that means the original copy of the ten commandments is in heaven.
Hebrews 8:8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Jeremiah 31:31Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 12:24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

New Covenant took place at the death of Christ
Hebrews 9:16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Hebrews 9:17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

A new Priesthood
Hebrews 7:11[ Need for a New Priesthood ] Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?

New law
Hebrews 7:12For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

Hebrews 7:14For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood.
Hebrews 7:24But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood.
1 Peter 2:9But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

All by Faith in and through Christ, if the Law could haqve done this then there was no need for Christ to have come, die for us and then live for us raised from the deasd
Romans 8:3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

No flesh worship by flesh will ever please God never did and is why Christ came to have us those that beleive reborn in the Spirit of God by the resurrection of Christ after his death cleansed us form all evil