Todays Israel
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When God restored Israel after the Babylonian captivity.
When God destroyed Babylon with Meda-Persian empire.
When Christ ascended to the Father and took up His rightful place next to the Father. He rules with a rod of iron now, and always has. God's nation of believers has survived over 2000 years now and still going. "Rod of Iron" is a metaphor for strength. Christ rules in the hearts and minds of those who love and trust in Him.
Sorry to say, you do not understand prophecy. "withholding rain" means to not to show with blessings. God did not shower His blessings upon Israel when the rebelled against him, and 70AD was the ultimate fulfillment of this prophecy. Christ does the same to local churches who become apostate, the 7 letters to the 7 churches in Asia-Minor in Revelations as an example.
Again, sorry, I don't mean be offensive toward you. I have lots of love for you. However, you do not understand this prophecy. What it means is that we no longer need a system of Priesthood for the people. In ancient Israel's day, the people were not instructed about God and Godly things on an individual basis, they had to hear from God through a Judge, priest, or prophet. The people of the whole did not have the Holy Spirit to guide and teach them. God spoke through individuals, and the major of the people were to follow. Now, all believers are priest. All believers have access to the Holy Spirit. We no longer need a class system of rulers/leaders who only hear from God. This does not mean that we don't have or need gifted people in teaching positions, what it means it that we all have the means to access God through His Word, through Christ, and by the Holy Spirit equally between all believers (however, not all believers seem to understand who we are in Christ (our identity in Christ) and that we can all approach the throne of God boldly through Christ).
The great tribulation, really man?! Many of the NT writings to the churches was to encourage them to endure the times, the persecution from the Jews and Romans.
2 Corinthians 7:4 - In Paul's Day, speaking to the Corinthian Church about their tribulations.
4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.
Revelation 1:9 (John sees himself in the tribulation, it's in his day).
9 I, John, both[e] your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:9 - These are the 1st Century Christians who were persecuted to death by Israel and Rome. John sees them in his vision.
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
I know you are quoting from Romans 11:26, and we been down this road before. Quick answer: When Christ is done building His Church. But Paul isn't speaking about the church here, the Greek word "so" means "in this manner" Israel will be saved. What manner? Through Christ, their acceptance of Christ, like everyone else.
Romans 11:26 - It not saying all physical Israel will be saved, it is saying all Israelites who accept "the deliever" can be saved, that's why God hasn't forgotten them, God's offer of salvation through Christ is for all people, Jew and Gentile. God has not written them off entirely because they crucified their King! They still have a chance, open door to Christ.
26 And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;. Why bother? I doubt you will be receptive to anyone's answer.
2 Corinthians 7:4 - In Paul's Day, speaking to the Corinthian Church about their tribulations.
4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.
Revelation 1:9 (John sees himself in the tribulation, it's in his day).
9 I, John, both[e] your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:9 - These are the 1st Century Christians who were persecuted to death by Israel and Rome. John sees them in his vision.
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
I know you are quoting from Romans 11:26, and we been down this road before. Quick answer: When Christ is done building His Church. But Paul isn't speaking about the church here, the Greek word "so" means "in this manner" Israel will be saved. What manner? Through Christ, their acceptance of Christ, like everyone else.
Romans 11:26 - It not saying all physical Israel will be saved, it is saying all Israelites who accept "the deliever" can be saved, that's why God hasn't forgotten them, God's offer of salvation through Christ is for all people, Jew and Gentile. God has not written them off entirely because they crucified their King! They still have a chance, open door to Christ.
26 And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;. Why bother? I doubt you will be receptive to anyone's answer.
This Forever statement in scripture has a condition.
1 Kings 9:3 states:
3 And the Lord said to him: “I have heard your prayer and your supplication that you have made before Me; I have consecrated this house which you have built to put My name there forever, and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually.
1 Kings 9:6-9
6 But if you or your sons at all turn from following Me, and do not keep My commandments and My statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods and worship them, 7 then I will cut off Israel from the land which I have given them; and this house which I have consecrated for My name I will cast out of My sight. Israel will be a proverb and a byword among all peoples. 8 And as for this house, which is exalted, everyone who passes by it will be astonished and will hiss, and say, ‘Why has the Lord done thus to this land and to this house?’ 9 Then they will answer, ‘Because they forsook the Lord their God, who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have embraced other gods, and worshiped them and served them; therefore the Lord has brought all this calamity on them.’”
1 Kings 9:3 states:
3 And the Lord said to him: “I have heard your prayer and your supplication that you have made before Me; I have consecrated this house which you have built to put My name there forever, and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually.
1 Kings 9:6-9
6 But if you or your sons at all turn from following Me, and do not keep My commandments and My statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods and worship them, 7 then I will cut off Israel from the land which I have given them; and this house which I have consecrated for My name I will cast out of My sight. Israel will be a proverb and a byword among all peoples. 8 And as for this house, which is exalted, everyone who passes by it will be astonished and will hiss, and say, ‘Why has the Lord done thus to this land and to this house?’ 9 Then they will answer, ‘Because they forsook the Lord their God, who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have embraced other gods, and worshiped them and served them; therefore the Lord has brought all this calamity on them.’”
No offense intended toward Marc as person or believer. Nor you Pumicestone, sorry I offended you.
I don't think I'm confused. The times of the gentiles I believe are in progress, has been since the 1st century. The Fulfillment of the times of the gentiles will be when Christ returns bring in the new heavens and earth. There is no biblical mention whatsoever, of any time of a Jewish/Israel nation era as God's economy or centralized nation of operation, to be reestablished after the times of the gentiles.
If you think there is biblical support for this, please cite your proof texts.
If you think there is biblical support for this, please cite your proof texts.
E
Thats true? Hmm Who wrote the new testament if the nation as a whole rejected God? I guess their is no remnant? Even though scripture said there always would be?
1. All of Gods promises are irrevocable. whe does god ever go back on his promise (your scaring me bro)
2. God said there were many aspects for his reason to separate a nation to himself. The messiah was just one of them.
as for your comment as a whole. the nation as a whole never accepted God from the beginning. they never were a godly nation. they did not just start rejecting Gods provision at the time of Christ.
1. All of Gods promises are irrevocable. whe does god ever go back on his promise (your scaring me bro)
2. God said there were many aspects for his reason to separate a nation to himself. The messiah was just one of them.
as for your comment as a whole. the nation as a whole never accepted God from the beginning. they never were a godly nation. they did not just start rejecting Gods provision at the time of Christ.
E
Bolded parts are future, they have not occured yet. so prophetically, they are still unfulfilled.
May be true. However, when scripture says Israel is restored as a nation. it will be whole and complete. this is not true even today
Where do you get this date from? Just asking. Considering the final beast empire has not even been defeated yet.
Not trying to argue, just discuss.
E
This Can't be true, Because Israel was not completely removed by Babylon. Most stayed in Israel. they even had a puppet king.
Not to mention it does not fit. why? everything bolded did not occure Even at the time of Christ, Israel was still under rule of the gentile king (rome) it never was restored. Allowing them to rebuid temple, and them being restored as one nation with one king (david) over them is not the same.
Ez 37: [SUP]1 [/SUP]“Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; [SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. [SUP]23 [/SUP]They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
Oh he is? tell that to all the rape victims the children being sodomized and raped by their parents and other men. the people living under tyranny in Iraq, russia, china and other evil nations. I can go on and on and on. All one has to do is look at the news to know God is not ruling as he promised he would.
Sorry, it is you who do not understand prophesy. Your trying to twist it like the roman catholics did to make it fit their belief system.
A rod of iron must be interpreted in the day it was written, not in our day. It means what it says, That their will be peace. and God will shut out all rebellion against him, that neighbor will not need to teach neighbor, because everyone knows who God is and who Christ is, that nations will live in peace. not war. That the true judge will be on earth. etc etc.. what your claiming makes no sense, and does not fit a "rod of iron" senerio.
There has not been a nation of Christians, Christians come from all nations and they are one, but they are not a nation. you can not try to fit the things of national israel in the OT to the church, the things do not fit.
1. Tribulations and great tribulation are not the same, we have ALWAYS had tribulation. But jesus made it clear. great tribulation will be such like the world has never seen, and he will return because if he did not. no flesh would survive on earth (which shows how great this tribulation is)
No one in the NT church of pauls or johns day experienced that tribulation. it has not occured yet.
and yes, Israel will be saved, when they repent and receive christ, just like ez 37 and other prophesies concerning them say, why do you think I believe any different?
sorry, it says all isreal will be saved, which would include the remnant, and those who are our enemy (at the time of the restoration) there is no need of mentioning a remnant who will keep the line alive UNTIL all is saved, if the "ALL" is non inclusive of everyone at the time the event occures.
Not to mention it does not fit. why? everything bolded did not occure Even at the time of Christ, Israel was still under rule of the gentile king (rome) it never was restored. Allowing them to rebuid temple, and them being restored as one nation with one king (david) over them is not the same.
Ez 37: [SUP]1 [/SUP]“Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; [SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. [SUP]23 [/SUP]They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
Oh he is? tell that to all the rape victims the children being sodomized and raped by their parents and other men. the people living under tyranny in Iraq, russia, china and other evil nations. I can go on and on and on. All one has to do is look at the news to know God is not ruling as he promised he would.
Sorry, it is you who do not understand prophesy. Your trying to twist it like the roman catholics did to make it fit their belief system.
A rod of iron must be interpreted in the day it was written, not in our day. It means what it says, That their will be peace. and God will shut out all rebellion against him, that neighbor will not need to teach neighbor, because everyone knows who God is and who Christ is, that nations will live in peace. not war. That the true judge will be on earth. etc etc.. what your claiming makes no sense, and does not fit a "rod of iron" senerio.
There has not been a nation of Christians, Christians come from all nations and they are one, but they are not a nation. you can not try to fit the things of national israel in the OT to the church, the things do not fit.
1. Tribulations and great tribulation are not the same, we have ALWAYS had tribulation. But jesus made it clear. great tribulation will be such like the world has never seen, and he will return because if he did not. no flesh would survive on earth (which shows how great this tribulation is)
No one in the NT church of pauls or johns day experienced that tribulation. it has not occured yet.
and yes, Israel will be saved, when they repent and receive christ, just like ez 37 and other prophesies concerning them say, why do you think I believe any different?
sorry, it says all isreal will be saved, which would include the remnant, and those who are our enemy (at the time of the restoration) there is no need of mentioning a remnant who will keep the line alive UNTIL all is saved, if the "ALL" is non inclusive of everyone at the time the event occures.
B
If this is the case, then how come everytime someone has messed with them since they became a nation, the people messing with them get a butt-whooping from Israel? Coincidence? I think not.
How come almost every time the U.S. starts to slide away from Israel something crazy happens in our country?
I don't think its coincidence.
God still blesses the physical Israel as much as He blesses the spiritual Israel.
How come almost every time the U.S. starts to slide away from Israel something crazy happens in our country?
I don't think its coincidence.
God still blesses the physical Israel as much as He blesses the spiritual Israel.
B
Have you ever read the prophets, such as Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc.?
In Ezekiel 34 I believe, God prophecies against Israel and compares their leaders as shepherds, and the leaders have lead/scattered the people of Israel (God's sheep). God says He will be the good shepherd and gather His sheep together.
Now with this you must also understand Israel was split up into 2 kingdoms at this time in history. One kingdom was losts and scattered among the nations, the other was held in captivity.
Later down the line, Yeshua comes and He states that He is the good shepherd, He also states He's gathering sheep from "another fold" meaning, 2 groups of people. Meaning He's bringing Israel back together as a whole. He's gathering the scattered sheep, and the ones in captivity.
Btw the Jews are the house that were in captivity.
So the prophecy does refer to Jews as well.
In Ezekiel 34 I believe, God prophecies against Israel and compares their leaders as shepherds, and the leaders have lead/scattered the people of Israel (God's sheep). God says He will be the good shepherd and gather His sheep together.
Now with this you must also understand Israel was split up into 2 kingdoms at this time in history. One kingdom was losts and scattered among the nations, the other was held in captivity.
Later down the line, Yeshua comes and He states that He is the good shepherd, He also states He's gathering sheep from "another fold" meaning, 2 groups of people. Meaning He's bringing Israel back together as a whole. He's gathering the scattered sheep, and the ones in captivity.
Btw the Jews are the house that were in captivity.
So the prophecy does refer to Jews as well.
I guess I fail to see the logic of why the modern State of Israel has anything to do with the Israel in the bible. Modern Israel is a secular, capitalistic, parliamentary, democratic state. It has no high priest, no priests, no monarch, no temple, no sacrificial system, no Sanhedrin, no prophet(s), doesn't control the same territory, isn't divided up into tribes and tribal lands, isn't governed by Torah,... Not to mention that 25% of the population isn't even Jewish at all, and this isn't counting the Palestinian territories. If we count the Palestinian territories, there are as many non-Jews as there are Jews.
It's sort-of like declaring America to be the true, reorganized medieval Britain because the early settlers were descendants of the various groups in Britain. It makes no sense.
It's sort-of like declaring America to be the true, reorganized medieval Britain because the early settlers were descendants of the various groups in Britain. It makes no sense.
There are Scriptures in the OT indicating two regatherings. First one in unbelief..they will be building the Temple and making a compact with death (antichrist) all in unbelief. Then there are passages speaking of a 2nd regathering in belief. At least this may help explain your quandry even though you'll probably still have your doubts.