Thank you Bladerunner. That helps me to better understand what you were saying.
Thank YOU
You believe that "signs" in the sun, moon, and stars occur -- both - at the beginning - and - at the end - of the 'Great Tribulation'.
Do I have that right?
YES A cosmic distrubance at both the beginning and the END of the Daniel's 70th week.
There is definitely a similarity with regard to the "signs" in the sun, moon, and stars...
I believe that the mention of the "signs" in the sun, moon, and stars - in all of the following verses - are referring to the same event(s):
Isaiah 13:10..
He speaks of Pangs and Sorrows to come in verse 8 (i.e Mat24 :8)
Joel 2:10; 3:15..
Joel tells here the Great Day of the Lord has Come in Joel 2:1
Matthew 24:29..
Telling this to his Disciples, presenting what Jesus said from a Jewish view
Mark 13:24-25..
Here Mark is similar but he present it from a slave's view.
Luke 21:25-26..
Here Jesus is telling the People. Luke is telling it from a Gentile View
Acts 2:20..
The Sun, moon and stars here appear to be those that are right before the 2nd coming
Revelation 6:12-13..
6th seal and the beginning of Daniel's 70th week.
Revelation 8:12..
This too is in the beginning after the 7th seal is open...NOTICE only 1/3 of the the sun and moon are darkened.
Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24-25 indicate that the "signs" in the sun, moon, and stars occur
after the
end of that 'Tribulation'. And, of course, the wording of Matthew 24:30-31 indicates that [ the events of those verses ] occur
after that...
I believe that the span of time of all of what is described in Revelation 6:12-14 overlaps that referred to in the Olivet Discourse verses, with regard to what is
specifically mentioned. In the more general sense, they are all referring to the same event(s).
YES
I recently discovered that I was wrong in assuming that the Abomination of Desolation
must have occurred ~70 A.D.; rather, the Abomination of Desolation actually occurred in 167 B.C. -- when -
Jerusalem was "overrun" by an army and desolated. I currently believe that what is referred to in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 is not actually the 'abomination' of the temple itself - but, rather -
the desolation of Jerusalem. ( which happened in 167 B.C. - as an act of being "overrun" by an army ) It is an "indirect" reference to something that already occurred. ( which is why the phrases "whoso readeth, let him understand" is in Matthew 24:15 and "let him that readeth understand" is in Mark 13:14 )
OK, don't go overboard here. the AoD did happen in 167BC with Antiochus Epiphanies. This what Jesus is telling us in Mat24:15.... He is referring to the past AoD while at the same time telling us it will happen again as According to Daniel the Prophet. (Daniel 9:27) If you do not believe that Daniel means anything then this verse is meaningless.
If you will look at the prophecy of 70AD Luke 21:20 Jesus uses "Desolate" for Jerusalem Not AoD. The armies he speaks of in that passage is the Roman Army. Rem in 167BC, Jerusalem was under captivity already. They needed NO army to defeat them. When Antiochus came to power, he killed many and desecrated the whole temple and altars before he placed a Idol of Zeus in the Holy of Hollies. In Luke 21:20,, Jesus is telling the people the prophecy about 70 AD (which just happens to be 38 years (the same length of a Generation they wondered in the wilderness (38 years)). To flee when they see the army encompassing the city. This takes around 18 months and leaves plenty of time for them to leave the city. They are not leaving in a panic mode here. Jesus tells them in Luke 21:21 tell them to stop people from other countries from entering the city.
On the other hand, Jesus through Matthew is telling his disciples of a Far Future AFTER 70AD. There are key words in each of the passages....Matt 24:9 the words "THEN SHALL THEY" but in Luke 21:12 "But before all these". See the previous verses on both to get context.
THe Abomination of Desolate of the Future is the Merged antichrist and Satan. He enters the Holy of Hollies and declares himself to be GOD. Mat. 24:15.."....When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation.....".... WHEN YE SEE the (antichrist/Satan) step into the Temple---SPLIT --RUN--FLY if you can....GET OUT THEN.......IMMEDIATELY and RUN to the Mountains (which are east in Petra)
Yes, a little different then in 167BC (NO Fleeing) and 70 AD (No immediate fleeing, just a casual leaving).
Yes, a little different than in 167BC (an Idol of Zeus in the Holy of Hollies), 70 AD ( NO AoD ..only Jersualem made Desolate (empty, dead, etc))
In other words, the prophecy of Daniel may very well be talking about the [ actual ] 'abomination' of the temple, but [ I believe ] what is being referred to in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 is actually the idea that:
"When you see [ what happened in 167 B.C. ] happening again..."
And -- also - because it has to "align" with Luke 21:20.
Luke 21:20 makes a
direct reference to that which Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 make an
indirect reference to.
So then --
that ( Jerusalem being "overrun" by an army and desolated )
did happen in 70 A.D. What was being referred to in all three accounts of the Olivet Discourse was Jerusalem being "overrun" by a Roman army. ( And, thereafter desolated as a result. )
So -- it is not that the Abomination of Desolation
itself occurred in 70 A.D.; but, rather - Jerusalem being "overrun" by an army - that is actually the center-of-focus in those verses - in all three accounts of the Olivet Discourse.
As-or-after the armies surrounded Jerusalem, did they not establish a barrier that prevented people from leaving or entering the city?
I am not so sure that they had 18 months to leave. They were being trapped in their own city long before that. The Christians were the only ones to escape -- because, they understood the prophecy - and, did not waste any time getting out of the city when they saw it happening ( the armies gathering to surround the city ).
You have to go to History to get this....but to make it short,,the Ceasar Died, Vaspassian (Titus' father) finally became the Ceasar. However, Titus had left the Army on standbye while he went to Rome. There was infighting at ROME before all of this happened and it appears two Ceasars were killed in the struggle for power. Yes, it took a while and the Armies just sat there letting anyone enter and leave as they chose.
And thus -- the 'Great Tribulation' began in 70 A.D. We are still in it. It will end in the future.
No,, The Tribulations (Daniel's 70th week) has not started yet. The prophecy that Jesus Spoke of is true..So far the Bible is 100% accurate in its prophecies being fulfilled. There are two times periods here. "The times of the Gentiles" started back around 5-600BC with neberkenezer and technically is finished when the Anti-christ is revealed.
The other is the "Fulfillment of the Gentiles" This is the Church Jesus Speaks of and is Here until the Rapture. Do not confuse them
How many will have died during the 'Great Tribulation'...?
:
70 A.D. and its aftermath - a million +, wasn't it?
The Dark Ages - 50 million +, wasn't it?
Those who will be beheaded for not worshiping the beast - millions? / billions?
The days will be cut short ( in the future ) for the elect's sake.
There will have never been any time like it - before it or after it.
And then --- "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days" -- the "signs" in the sun, moon, and stars will occur. Notice that this is AFTER the
end of the 'Great Tribulation'.
And then -- AFTER that - the Second Coming of Christ.
I believe both verses ( in general ) are referring to the same event(s).