What does the Dead Sea Scrolls mean to Christians?
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Qumran Copper Scroll here is a page i found it is a hand written copy of the copper scroll. I was cautious of it at first(because it's handwritten) but after i examined it further i began to like it because it is possible to zoom in and out and focus on certain text.
To whoever already understands this(skip over my explanation) but to who it might help Hebrew is read from right to left. Take the (handwritten image) and go to the far right then look at the (actual photo at the top) compare the two and you will find it is the beginning of the text(in the photo) go down to the 4th line then to the far left of that sentence is (KEN),,which is the first occurrence of the Greek unless i made a mistake.
now the Egyptian numerals,,(i think proves to be harder to explain) ken you will be better at locating them all than me (you are a math professor,i am not) anyway the text(handwritten) to the far left (4th sentence up from the bottom) at the end of the sentence you see (Yllll) there are many other occurrences of the numbers. i.e. same column 10th sentence from the bottom at left of sentence is another looks like (a house with a v on top,then lllll)
now the trick to this would seem to be to take (the hand written copy) and we have the first column to match to the first photo. so to search for the text in the 2nd,3rd,4th ect. would give the photo of the text to be able to compare it to the handwritten copy to compare accuracy. hope this helps,,,,
To whoever already understands this(skip over my explanation) but to who it might help Hebrew is read from right to left. Take the (handwritten image) and go to the far right then look at the (actual photo at the top) compare the two and you will find it is the beginning of the text(in the photo) go down to the 4th line then to the far left of that sentence is (KEN),,which is the first occurrence of the Greek unless i made a mistake.
now the Egyptian numerals,,(i think proves to be harder to explain) ken you will be better at locating them all than me (you are a math professor,i am not) anyway the text(handwritten) to the far left (4th sentence up from the bottom) at the end of the sentence you see (Yllll) there are many other occurrences of the numbers. i.e. same column 10th sentence from the bottom at left of sentence is another looks like (a house with a v on top,then lllll)
now the trick to this would seem to be to take (the hand written copy) and we have the first column to match to the first photo. so to search for the text in the 2nd,3rd,4th ect. would give the photo of the text to be able to compare it to the handwritten copy to compare accuracy. hope this helps,,,,
K
These are no historical numbers that i know. They are not in the translation. I pulled up a lot of images. I think they are marks indicating where the copper is missing because it cracked off. > is a cut, and IIIII is the measure of how much was cut off. The 3's are missing unreadable letters. Short for "3 letters unreadable".
yes i have looked at this for some time. i am not a treasure hunter,so i look at it much like you i think(i just want to know the truth),,like you said a page or so back "the things we find on the www,,well some are true but most is not".(not a direct quote i know,only sums up your comment)but i do agree with it.
the marks (my own theory) is something "joseph t, milik" (several spellings of his name i notice) added to the hand written copy at the time it was cut apart in England. that is he was the editor ect, on the team. the "little house with the v" i think is a depiction of the copper scroll (viewed from the end),the v is his depiction of the place where the saw cut thru the scroll. and the marks we find added to the handwritten copies are his notes to himself indicating several things.
one would imagine if the scroll was cut down the middle longways then,several columns of text would be cut apart. so as they were being laid out he it seems made these notes to himself as a guide to follow in reconstructing where the text should be if it was unrolled to the original 8 feet. it was tho found in 2 pieces,so he notes this also. now the saw blade was .004 thick(thickness of a human hair,approx.) so some letters,not all iota,yod ect. if the blade hit them by chance would be completely gone or very difficult to read.
but i also do think these are "milliks notes",,although if one chose they could search the www and post page after page of sites with these "Egyptian hieroglyphic mathematics",,,,,but there not accurate are they? papyrus115 the same,and it would go on and on. It should have been simple,go to your w site click on the Rhine math,,,Google Egyptian mathematics,ect.
So anyway once i understood the hand written copies were actually very accurate. then i went to the Hebrew and studied it for a while. as you see it's not traditional style biblical Hebrew,so some words in it are hard to compare with biblical definitions. some of these words thru me for a loop.
"stater coins" i think was in coulomb 9,,,,,,,stater coins were from a specific time period Stater - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia this makes me wonder about the exact (Hebrew word) translated here. why is this, First Jewish Revolt coinage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia you see is this the same word used and was the coins referred to these coins instead?
that is the old stater(greek) used to 50ad was then replaced by the Jewish coins,,,that is if the levitates were associated with Qumran (supplying text) and if this is reference to these coins (1st revolt) then the copper scroll was written after this.hmm but which coin?,,,,now July ad70 the Romans melted the gold in the temple,,so how can the Romans take it as history records and it be in the record of the copper scroll? Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
why did they translate it from Hebrew to the Greek "stater",,,,,instead of the Hebrew form? why is it not "shekel" compare it to Matthew 17;27 .now the old Greek stater could have been in use from the days of say Amos,,so Assyrian,Babylonian,Greek and roman occupation,,,,,,,,,or the copper scroll could be giving a "standard of weight",,well anyway,,,
the marks (my own theory) is something "joseph t, milik" (several spellings of his name i notice) added to the hand written copy at the time it was cut apart in England. that is he was the editor ect, on the team. the "little house with the v" i think is a depiction of the copper scroll (viewed from the end),the v is his depiction of the place where the saw cut thru the scroll. and the marks we find added to the handwritten copies are his notes to himself indicating several things.
one would imagine if the scroll was cut down the middle longways then,several columns of text would be cut apart. so as they were being laid out he it seems made these notes to himself as a guide to follow in reconstructing where the text should be if it was unrolled to the original 8 feet. it was tho found in 2 pieces,so he notes this also. now the saw blade was .004 thick(thickness of a human hair,approx.) so some letters,not all iota,yod ect. if the blade hit them by chance would be completely gone or very difficult to read.
but i also do think these are "milliks notes",,although if one chose they could search the www and post page after page of sites with these "Egyptian hieroglyphic mathematics",,,,,but there not accurate are they? papyrus115 the same,and it would go on and on. It should have been simple,go to your w site click on the Rhine math,,,Google Egyptian mathematics,ect.
So anyway once i understood the hand written copies were actually very accurate. then i went to the Hebrew and studied it for a while. as you see it's not traditional style biblical Hebrew,so some words in it are hard to compare with biblical definitions. some of these words thru me for a loop.
"stater coins" i think was in coulomb 9,,,,,,,stater coins were from a specific time period Stater - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia this makes me wonder about the exact (Hebrew word) translated here. why is this, First Jewish Revolt coinage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia you see is this the same word used and was the coins referred to these coins instead?
that is the old stater(greek) used to 50ad was then replaced by the Jewish coins,,,that is if the levitates were associated with Qumran (supplying text) and if this is reference to these coins (1st revolt) then the copper scroll was written after this.hmm but which coin?,,,,now July ad70 the Romans melted the gold in the temple,,so how can the Romans take it as history records and it be in the record of the copper scroll? Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
why did they translate it from Hebrew to the Greek "stater",,,,,instead of the Hebrew form? why is it not "shekel" compare it to Matthew 17;27 .now the old Greek stater could have been in use from the days of say Amos,,so Assyrian,Babylonian,Greek and roman occupation,,,,,,,,,or the copper scroll could be giving a "standard of weight",,well anyway,,,
K
Iamsoandso, this is issue is so complicated. Just because something was stored in 70AD, does not mean it is not a copy of a copy of a copy. It could have been composed fresh the day before, or it could be a traditional text 1000 years old. Then, there is no such thing really as the "Hebrew of Jesus' time" They spoke Aramaic. Like Latin today, there were purists trying to keep the old, and modernists trying to adapt the old Hebrew in various ways. I have read from scribes who insisted that to be inspired, the Hebrew text must be written in the paleolithic Hebrew alphabet used by Moses and the judges. Then, there is the issue of just how "different" the Qumran folks wanted to be. We know they had their own calendar and believed the Jerusalem Temple was in sin over many things. They could have changed their language many ways, and had conventions on when to use and not to use Greek and Hebrew different from anything else we know. Many modern Jews will not write 15 in Hebrew characters as 10+5; they switch to 9+6, to avoid writing YH, the name of God. I know at least 5 different definitions of the term "worship" in use by various Christian denominations today. Without either a time machine, or a lot more evidence, I doubt we can solve any of what you are bringing up.
yes,,i do agree with you. i look at things at times(things mentioned in the text) i notice for instance in the n.t. books the writers do not mention the apostles by name i.e. "the one who cut off the soldiers ear",,(while peter was still alive) but after he was no longer living he is mentioned by name. that is they knew they would be in danger if they were not cautious.
the same brings up a strong argument as to the dating of Revelations that is he speaks of the temple as if it still was standing (when rev. was written). i studied for a while (online) about "the dating of the gospels",,which leads to dating the epistles ect. because of facts mentioned in them.
because of this at times on c.c. as i see the post about antichrist,and the 5 times used in johns writing i ask them "how can he go from fully understanding the antichrist" in the first books he wrote to not knowing in rev. where the angel tells him "i will show thee the mystery" that is he cannot go from knowing in the first books he wrote to not knowing in the last book he wrote.,,,,not to bring this up here tho only as an example i do realize there is the spirit of unbelief(denying the Messiah come in the flesh),and the ruler who will come in the last time (600 years,60 cubits,6 cubits) we looked at,,now these prophecies it seems are easy to combine.
so but back to the copper scroll i was looking at the things mentioned in the 64 statements as to who,what where,(as for a time frame),,,,,but as you point out "this issue is so complicated",,i was trying to find something more modern (closer to 1st century) mentioned in the copper scroll,i cannot unless the stater sheds some light?,,,even those who worked on it before us set it aside saying "unless any one of the things mentioned be found we cannot tell",,,
now in the 80's in Jordon cave 24 they found what they believe to be the the oil container used by the priest in the first temple/tabernacle? its not a gold vessel it is clay pottery. so they believed it to be one of the things listed in the copper scroll. it was also found along with several other metal books but i don't think it was the exact one mentioned in the copper scroll.
the Qumran priest? it seems to me also viewed the second temple as in a fallen state. it seems to me they were working with other priest who were in the temple. now it's unclear to me if they actually thought "king David" would raise from the grave and be again the king of Jerusalem but that from the time of the first temple they returned the tabernacle alter ect. to the mountain where Moses viewed the promised land. this they did in preparation for the Resurrection of "David"
here is a link Vendyl Jones Research Institute (caution about information as always) but in it it mentions the "Mishnayot" and several other references from jubilees,Maccabees ect. they mention the same direction of thinking as it seems we find in the Qumran community but beggining at the 8th cen.bc,,,,and may well be what ended up being copied,,several times and the end product the "copper scroll",,,,now this link as the others i only "harvested historical information from" and the conclusions they drew some i do agree with but some not,,
but i do think this was the general path the Qumran peoples followed. i am christian,so i see the king resurrected on the third day,but it is quite confusing to see Qumran in this matter(to me),,it seems they did not see the king ascend to his throne they had prepared for so long.
its as though there were two frames of thought the scripture says "the tabernacle ascended from heaven to the earth among men",,,,,,,,,now one group of men ran out with maps and dug up the things and began to build,,,,,,but i saw Christ in his return,and his bride together one flesh,the father dwelling in "this temple" among man.,,,,two different things i think,,
the same brings up a strong argument as to the dating of Revelations that is he speaks of the temple as if it still was standing (when rev. was written). i studied for a while (online) about "the dating of the gospels",,which leads to dating the epistles ect. because of facts mentioned in them.
because of this at times on c.c. as i see the post about antichrist,and the 5 times used in johns writing i ask them "how can he go from fully understanding the antichrist" in the first books he wrote to not knowing in rev. where the angel tells him "i will show thee the mystery" that is he cannot go from knowing in the first books he wrote to not knowing in the last book he wrote.,,,,not to bring this up here tho only as an example i do realize there is the spirit of unbelief(denying the Messiah come in the flesh),and the ruler who will come in the last time (600 years,60 cubits,6 cubits) we looked at,,now these prophecies it seems are easy to combine.
so but back to the copper scroll i was looking at the things mentioned in the 64 statements as to who,what where,(as for a time frame),,,,,but as you point out "this issue is so complicated",,i was trying to find something more modern (closer to 1st century) mentioned in the copper scroll,i cannot unless the stater sheds some light?,,,even those who worked on it before us set it aside saying "unless any one of the things mentioned be found we cannot tell",,,
now in the 80's in Jordon cave 24 they found what they believe to be the the oil container used by the priest in the first temple/tabernacle? its not a gold vessel it is clay pottery. so they believed it to be one of the things listed in the copper scroll. it was also found along with several other metal books but i don't think it was the exact one mentioned in the copper scroll.
the Qumran priest? it seems to me also viewed the second temple as in a fallen state. it seems to me they were working with other priest who were in the temple. now it's unclear to me if they actually thought "king David" would raise from the grave and be again the king of Jerusalem but that from the time of the first temple they returned the tabernacle alter ect. to the mountain where Moses viewed the promised land. this they did in preparation for the Resurrection of "David"
here is a link Vendyl Jones Research Institute (caution about information as always) but in it it mentions the "Mishnayot" and several other references from jubilees,Maccabees ect. they mention the same direction of thinking as it seems we find in the Qumran community but beggining at the 8th cen.bc,,,,and may well be what ended up being copied,,several times and the end product the "copper scroll",,,,now this link as the others i only "harvested historical information from" and the conclusions they drew some i do agree with but some not,,
but i do think this was the general path the Qumran peoples followed. i am christian,so i see the king resurrected on the third day,but it is quite confusing to see Qumran in this matter(to me),,it seems they did not see the king ascend to his throne they had prepared for so long.
its as though there were two frames of thought the scripture says "the tabernacle ascended from heaven to the earth among men",,,,,,,,,now one group of men ran out with maps and dug up the things and began to build,,,,,,but i saw Christ in his return,and his bride together one flesh,the father dwelling in "this temple" among man.,,,,two different things i think,,
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K
Plese verify the verse. Col. 1 verse 9 reads "9 In the hill of Kohlit, tithe-vessels, flasks and
sacred vestments"; Col. v, (verse 9) reads "9 sixty cubits up to the big clod of earth,". Do you mean col. 9 vs. 3? The Hebrew is aleph-samekh-tav-resh-yod-nun sophit. English is "four bars of steryn". Jastrow lists only the word ASTR, without the IN part. This is the name of Queen Esther. I went back to "bars". The Hebrew is "badin". My dictionary is missing the page. Strong's lists "badan" as servant, derived from the root abad (5647) which can mean "wrought", hence their translation. Online translators give "law" or "righteously". As an idiom, "coins" make sense, but one would hardly bury only four coins in a separate spot. A word is missing at the end, maybe "hundred" or "thousand". "Steryn" is the best translation I can think of, with "badin" being adapted to mean "struck" in the sense of "minted". But this is only a guess. Coins minted in Babylon in Esther's time, might have been colloquially named for her.
sacred vestments"; Col. v, (verse 9) reads "9 sixty cubits up to the big clod of earth,". Do you mean col. 9 vs. 3? The Hebrew is aleph-samekh-tav-resh-yod-nun sophit. English is "four bars of steryn". Jastrow lists only the word ASTR, without the IN part. This is the name of Queen Esther. I went back to "bars". The Hebrew is "badin". My dictionary is missing the page. Strong's lists "badan" as servant, derived from the root abad (5647) which can mean "wrought", hence their translation. Online translators give "law" or "righteously". As an idiom, "coins" make sense, but one would hardly bury only four coins in a separate spot. A word is missing at the end, maybe "hundred" or "thousand". "Steryn" is the best translation I can think of, with "badin" being adapted to mean "struck" in the sense of "minted". But this is only a guess. Coins minted in Babylon in Esther's time, might have been colloquially named for her.
yes you are correct,i mistyped lv=9 instead of lx=9 ,,,,it will be later today when i am able to write again here is another link (it gives the text of the mishnayot, The Mishnayot and the Hiding of Temple Treasures in the Valley of Kings Emeq HaMelekh i find it remarkable (in connection with the dead sea scrolls) it states mish.12(and other places in the text) "when the exiles return it will float up?"
so 1947-48,,,both the state of Israel,and the discovery of the dss,,,,and in mish. 2 lays claim to writing this on a copper plate (copper scroll?),,,now i notice the line drawn from about Giza,thru the Qumran area and to Babylon,,,,,,,
so 1947-48,,,both the state of Israel,and the discovery of the dss,,,,and in mish. 2 lays claim to writing this on a copper plate (copper scroll?),,,now i notice the line drawn from about Giza,thru the Qumran area and to Babylon,,,,,,,
K
I have a few problems with this. I had read the mishna cover to cover many years ago, and I don't remember such a single treatment. Lexiline does not give proper references to where these 12 paragraphs come from, so I can't verify them. Generally, the Mishnah was all written after 300BC, as judging by the references to quotations within the document itself. Anything before 200 BC or so, always states "As the fathers taught". I remember pulling it apart century by century as I read. because almost every verse starts with "as rabbi .... taught". Verify this for yourself here: The Mishnah: A NEW INTEGRATED TRANSLATION AND COMMENTARY Based on Rabbeinu Ovadiah M’Bartenurah Within the Mishnah are impossible references to earlier dates, such as "Good King Hezekiah restored the reading of all the orders of the Mishnah". Finally, it is terribly hard to tell if this list even matches the copper scroll in terms of totals.
What I think we have is a joint tradition among Jews that was recorded here and there in the Mishnah, and drawn together by Lexiline to appear as one tradition. That's why it seems to match the copper scroll. I think the Jewish rabbis made these stories up at various times, and by Jesus' time, there was a story of a massive treasure. The Qumran community simply made up its own story. They put it on copper because the other was supposed to be on copper.
I think the line Giza, Qumran, Babylon is a coincidence. But it is not without tradition, Is. 19:23-24 speaks of the road joining the three countries.
The floating to the top, follows from another well established Talmudic legend, that when Messiah returns, Jews will be brought back to life and flow through underground caverns to Jerusalem, where they will meet Him at the Mount of Olives. The people will need the treasure, and it will join them.
I love Lexiline's original research, demonstrating the calendar origin equivalents to Dec. 21, 3121BC, thus verifying the Chinese date of Naoh's Flood, but I think the best we can make of this, is proof of "a" legend that Qumran tried to copy. I think that any proof that this mishnayot collection is older than 200BC or so is not well founded.
What I think we have is a joint tradition among Jews that was recorded here and there in the Mishnah, and drawn together by Lexiline to appear as one tradition. That's why it seems to match the copper scroll. I think the Jewish rabbis made these stories up at various times, and by Jesus' time, there was a story of a massive treasure. The Qumran community simply made up its own story. They put it on copper because the other was supposed to be on copper.
I think the line Giza, Qumran, Babylon is a coincidence. But it is not without tradition, Is. 19:23-24 speaks of the road joining the three countries.
The floating to the top, follows from another well established Talmudic legend, that when Messiah returns, Jews will be brought back to life and flow through underground caverns to Jerusalem, where they will meet Him at the Mount of Olives. The people will need the treasure, and it will join them.
I love Lexiline's original research, demonstrating the calendar origin equivalents to Dec. 21, 3121BC, thus verifying the Chinese date of Naoh's Flood, but I think the best we can make of this, is proof of "a" legend that Qumran tried to copy. I think that any proof that this mishnayot collection is older than 200BC or so is not well founded.