The truth about Muhammad "Feedback appreciated"

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,779
29,156
113
In context? Can you provide proof of this from their Quran?

I know unbelievers will often claim things about Christians which are totally untrue, based on a verse or two taken out of context - e.g.
1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

But that is one passage in the bible, for one time and one event - a historical event, rather than a universal command. When confronted with the statement that Muslims are commanded to kill, Muslims will often argue that such passages are taken out of context. I'm just interested to know if you've seen any such passages, and if they are indeed taken out of context.

(I'm content to know the religion is wrong, and so haven't researched too deeply into it).
See this post (<= link). It contains a link to the verses in question.

You need also to understand the concept of abrogation that applies to their teachings, and
the fact that the Quran is not laid out in historical order, but ordered by length of verse.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
By the way, do you think it's true about what the Jews said about Lilith?
I forget the verse in Scripture, but she did exist. What she did about seducing men comes from the occultic side of Judahism.

quote:


Musicians and Singers

Nobel Prize Laureates
Producers/Directors/Screenwriters
Sports Figures
Supreme Court Justices
U.S. Members of Congress
Women
Religious Figures
Top 50 American Jews
Join our mailing list
Join
Support JVL
Donate


LILITH, a female demon assigned a central position in Jewish demonology. She appears briefly in the Sumerian Gilgamesh epic and is found in Babylonian demonology, which identifies similar male and female spirits – Lilu and Lilitu respectively – which are etymologically unrelated to the Hebrew word laylah ("night"). These mazikim ("harmful spirits") have various roles: one of them – the Ardat-Lilith – preys on males, while others imperil women in childbirth and their children. An example of the latter kind is Lamashtu, against whom incantation formulas have been preserved in Assyrian. Winged female demons who strangle children are known from a Hebrew or Canaanite inscription found at Arslan-Tash in northern Syria and dating from about the seventh or eighth century B.C.E. Whether or not Lilith is mentioned in this incantation, which adjures the stranglers not to enter the house, is a moot point, depending on the addition of a missing letter: "To her that flies in rooms of darkness – pass quickly, quickly, Lil[ith]." In Scripture there is only one reference to Lilith (Isa. 34:14), among the beasts of prey and the spirits that will lay waste the land on the day of vengeance. In sources dating from earlier centuries, traditions concerning the female demon who endangers women in childbirth and who assumes many guises and names are distinct from the explicit tradition on Lilith recorded in the Talmud. Whereas the Babylonian Lilu is mentioned as some kind of male demon with no defined function, Lilith appears as a female demon with a woman's face, long hair, and wings (Er. 100b; Nid. 24b). A man sleeping in a house alone may be seized by Lilith (Shab. 151b); while the demon Hormiz, or Ormuzd, is mentioned as one of her sons (BB 73b). There is no foundation to the later commentaries that identify Lilith with the demon Agrath, daughter of Mahalath, who goes abroad at night with 180,000 pernicious angels (Pes. 112b). Nevertheless, a female demon who is known by tens of thousands of names and moves about the world at night, visiting women in childbirth and endeavoring to strangle their newborn babies, is mentioned in the Testament of Solomon, a Greek work of about the third century. Although preserved in a Christian version, this work is certainly based on Judeo-Hellenistic magic. Here the female demon is called Obizoth, and it is related that one of the mystical names of the angel Raphael inscribed on an amulet prevents her from inflicting injury. Lilith is identified as a demon in the Dead Sea Scrolls (11QpsAp). The name Lilith was also inscribed on incantation bowls of Sassanian Babylonia. Although such bowls were not an exclusively Jewish phenomenon, some invoke rabbinic divorce formulas to exorcize demons.
Midrashic literature expands the legend that Adam, having parted from his wife after it had been ordained that they should die, begat demons from spirits that had attached themselves to him. It is said that "he was encountered by a Lilith named Piznai who, taken by his beauty, lay with him and bore male and female demons." The firstborn son of this demonic union was Agrimas (see the Midrash published in Ha-Goren, 9 (1914), 66–68; Dvir, 1 (1923), 138; and L. Ginzberg, Legends of the Jews, 5 (1925), 166). The offspring of this Lilith fill the world. A transmuted version of this legend appears in the Alphabet of Ben Sira, a Midrash of the geonic period, which sets out to explain the already widespread custom of writing amulets against Lilith. Here she is identified with the "first Eve," who was created from the earth at the same time as Adam, and who, unwilling to forgo her equality, disputed with him the manner of their intercourse. Pronouncing the Ineffable Name, she flew off into the air. On Adam's request, the Almighty sent after her the three angels Snwy, Snsnwy, and Smnglf; finding her in the Red Sea, the angels threatened that if she did not return, 100 of her sons would die every day. She refused, claiming that she was expressly created to harm newborn infants. However, she had to swear that whenever she saw the image of those angels in an amulet, she would lose her power over the infant. Here the legend concerning the wife of Adam who preceded the creation of Eve (Gen. 2) merges with the earlier legend of Lilith as a demon who kills infants and endangers women in childbirth. This later version of the myth has many parallels in Christian literature from Byzantine (which probably preceded it) and later periods. The female demon is known by different names, many of which reappear in the same or in slightly altered forms in the literature of practical Kabbalah (as, for example, the name Obizoth from the Testament of Solomon), and the place of the angels is taken by three saints – Sines, Sisinnios, and Synodoros. The legend also found its way into Arabic demonology, where Lilith is known as Karina, Tabi'a, or "the mother of the infants." The personification of Lilith as a strangler of babies is already clear in Jewish incantations, written in Babylonian Aramaic, which predate the Alphabet of Ben Sira. A late Midrash (Ba-Midbar Rabbah, end of ch. 16) also mentions her in this respect: "When Lilith finds no children born, she turns on her own" – a motif which relates her to the Babylonian Lamashtu.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
From these ancient traditions, the image of Lilith was fixed in kabbalistic demonology. Here, too, she has two primary roles: the strangler of children (sometimes replaced in the Zohar by Naamah), and the seducer of men, from whose nocturnal emissions she bears an infinite number of demonic sons. In this latter role she appears at the head of a vast host, who share in her activities. Belief in her erotic powers led some Jewish communities to adopt the custom of sons not accompanying their dead father's body to the cemetery because they would be shamed by the hovering presence of theirdemon step-siblings, born of their father's seduction by Lilith. In the Zohar, as in other sources, she is known by such appellations as Lilith, the harlot, the wicked, the false, or the black. (The above-mentioned combination of motifs appears in the Zohar I, 14b, 54b; II, 96a, 111a; III, 19a, 76b.) She is generally numbered among the four mothers of the demons, the others being Agrat, Mahalath, and Naamah. Wholly new in the kabbalistic concept of Lilith is her appearance as the permanent partner of Samael, queen of the realm of the forces of evil (the sitra ahra). In that world (the world of the kelippot) she fulfills a function parallel to that of the Shekhinah ("Divine Presence") in the world of sanctity: just as the Shekhinah is the mother of the House of Israel, so Lilith is the mother of the unholy folk who constituted the "mixed multitude" (the erev-rav) and ruled over all that is impure. This conception is first found in the sources used by Isaac b. Jacob ha-Kohen, and later in Ammud ha-Semali by his disciple, Moses b. Solomon b. Simeon of Burgos. Both here, and later in the Tikkunei Zohar, there crystallizes the conception of various degrees of Lilith, internal and external. Likewise we find Lilith the older, the wife of Samael, and Lilith the younger, the wife of Asmodeus (see Tarbiz, 4 (1932/33), 72) in the writings of Isaac ha-Kohen and thereafter in the writings of most kabbalists. Some of these identify the two harlots who appeared in judgment before Solomon with Lilith and Naamah or Lilith and Agrat, an idea which is already hinted at in the Zohar and in contemporary writings (see Tarbiz, 19 (1947/48), 172–5).
Widespread, too, is the identification of Lilith with the Queen of Sheba – a notion with many ramifications in Jewish folklore. It originates in the Targum to Job 1:15 based on a Jewish and Arab myth that the Queen of Sheba was actually a jinn, half human and half demon. This view was known to Moses b. Shem Tov de Leon and is also mentioned in the Zohar. In Livnat ba-Sappir Joseph Angelino maintains that the riddles which the Queen of Sheba posed to Solomon are a repetition of the words of seduction which the first Lilith spoke to Adam. In Ashkenazi folklore, this figure coalesced with the popular image of Helen of Troy or the Frau Venus of German mythology. Until recent generations the Queen of Sheba was popularly pictured as a snatcher of children and a demonic witch. It is probable that there is a residue of the image of Lilith as Satan's partner in popular late medieval European notions of Satan's concubine, or wife in English folklore – "the Devil's Dame" – and of Satan's grandmother in German folklore. In the German drama on the female pope Jutta (Johanna), which was printed in 1565 though according to its publisher it was written in 1480, the grandmother's name is Lilith. Here she is depicted as a seductive dancer, a motif commonly found in Ashkenazi Jewish incantations involving the Queen of Sheba. In the writings of Hayyim Vital (Sefer ha-Likkutim (1913), 6b), Lilith sometimes appears to people in the form of a cat, goose, or other creature, and she holds sway not for eight days alone in the case of a male infant and 20 for a female (as recorded in the Alphabet of Ben Sira), but for 40 and 60 days respectively. In the Kabbalah, influenced by astrology, Lilith is related to the planet Saturn, and all those of a melancholy disposition – of a "black humor" – are her sons (Zohar, Ra'aya Meheimna III, 227b). From the 16th century it was commonly believed that if an infant laughed in his sleep it was an indication that Lilith was playing with him, and it was therefore advisable to tap him on the nose to avert the danger (H. Vital, Sefer ha-Likkutim (1913), 78c; Emek ha-Melekh, 130b).
It was very common to protect women who were giving birth from the power of Lilith by affixing amulets over the bed or on all four walls of the room. The earliest forms of these, in Aramaic, are included in Montgomery's collection (see bibl.). The first Hebrew version appears in the Alphabet of Ben Sira, which states that the amulet should contain not only the names of the three angels who prevail over Lilith, but also "their form, wings, hands, and legs." This version gained wide acceptance, and amulets of this type were even printed by the 18th century. According to Shimmush Tehillim, a book dating from the geonic period, amulets written for women who used to lose their children customarily included Psalm 126 (later replaced by Ps. 121) and the names of these three angels. In the Orient, also amulets representing Lilith herself "bound in chains" were current. Many amulets include the story of the prophet Elijah meeting Lilith on her way to the house of a woman in childbirth "to give her the sleep of death, to take her son and drink his blood, to suck the marrow of his bones and to eat his flesh" (in other versions: "to leave his flesh"). Elijah excommunicated her, whereupon she undertook not to harm women in childbirth whenever she saw or heard her names. This version is doubtless taken from a Christian Byzantine formula against the female demon Gyllo, who was exorcised by the three saints mentioned above. The transfer from the Greek to the Hebrew version is clearly seen in the formula of the 15th-century Hebrew incantation from Candia (see Crete), which was published by Cassuto (RSO, 15 (1935), 260), in which it is not Elijah but the archangel Michael who, coming from Sinai, encounters Lilith. Though the Greek names were progressively corrupted as time elapsed, by the 14th century new Greek names for "Lilith's entourage" appear in a manuscript of practical Kabbalah which includes material from a much earlier date (British Museum Add. Ms. 15299, fol. 84b). The story of Elijah and Lilith included in the second edition of David Lida's Sod ha-Shem (Berlin, 1710, p. 20a) is found in the majority of the later amulets against Lilith, one of her names being Striga – an enchantress, either woman or demon – or Astriga. In one of its mutations this name appears as the angel Astaribo, whom Elijah also encountered; in many incantations he takes the place of Lilith, a substitution found in a Yiddish version of the story dating from 1695. Also extant are versions of the incantation in which Lilith is replaced by the Evil Eye, the star Margalya, or the demon familiar in Jewish and Arab literature, Maimon the Black. In European belles lettres, the Lilith story in various versions has been a fruitful narrative theme.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/lilith
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
The History of Lilith

Although the figure of Lilith is commonly found in Jewish folklore and midrash, the origin of Lilith is as a Sumerian succubus. The first Jewish story of Lilith was told in the Alphabet of ben sirah. Before the introduction of the Alphabet of ben sirah, Lilith was mostly seen as a demoness instead of the "first Eve". Due to the ambiguity of Lilith, she has been represented in multiple forms in both literature and art. Some theological scholars acknowledge Lilith as the "first Eve" while others still see her as a demoness. Historically in art, Lilith has been portrayed variously ranging from risqué versions to Lilith in the garden. To view some of these depictions click on pictures on the UPenn website on Lilith.

https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Projects/Reln91/Power/lilith.htm

Eventually this idea of a “First Eve” was combined with legends of female “lillu” demons, who were believed to stalk men in their sleep and prey upon women and children. However, the only explicit reference to a “Lilith” in the Bible appears in Isaiah 34:14, which reads: “The wild cat shall meet with the jackals, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow, yea, Lilith shall repose there and find her a place of rest.”

Lilith in the Talmud and in Midrash
Lilith is mentioned four times in the Babylonian Talmud, though in each of these cases she is not referred to as Adam’s wife. BT Niddah 24b discusses her in relation to abnormal fetuses and uncleanness, saying: “If an abortion had the likeness of Lilith its mother is unclean by reason of the birth, for it is a child, but it has wings.” Here we learn that the rabbis believed Lilith had wings and that she could influence the outcome of a pregnancy.

BT Shabbat 151b also discusses Lilith, warning that a man should not sleep alone in a house lest Lilith fall upon him in his sleep. According to this and other texts, Lilith is a female succubus not unlike the lillu demons referenced above.
https://www.learnreligions.com/lilith-in-the-torah-talmud-midrash-2076654
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
Lilith later made her way into Israelite tradition, possibly even into the Bible. Isaiah 34:14, describing an inhospitable wilderness, tells us: “There goat-demons shall greet each other, and there the lilit shall find rest.” Some believe this word “lilit” is a reference to a night owl, and others say it is indeed a reference to the demon Lilith. A magical bowl from the first century CE, written in Hebrew, reads:” Designated is this bowl for the sealing of the house of this Geyonai bar Mamai, that there flee from him the evil Lilith…” Ancient images of Lilith which show her hands bound appear to be a form of visual magic for containing her.

In the Talmud, Lilith becomes not only a spirit of darkness,but also a figure of uncontrolled sexuality. The Babylonian Talmud (Shabbat151a) says: “It is forbidden for a man to sleep alone in a house, lest Lilith get hold of him.” Lilith is said to fertilize herself with male sperm to give birth to other demons.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/lilith-lady-flying-in-darkness/
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
I think there is only one reference to her in the Bible. There is not enough details there to support the myths of ocultic and false religions claims about her. Today, Wicca and Ocultic groups think she is real, some worship her.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
Can you tell us more details about how you were assaulted?
At the Muslim festival, it was set aside for Christians to remain in one area roped off. I was there. Young Muslim men came into our area thinking that they could refute the Biblical Jesus. Needless to say, we all had the wisdom, respect and kindness the Holy Spirit equiped for these encounters. They were unable to refute anything we said. They went away mad, came back with many other men to beat us up. The Police there, came over to arrest most of us. Those of us who are Veterans showed our IDs and were escorted to our cars and given a Police escort out of the City. The Christians who were arrested were unable to control themselves rationally and were in greater danger. Those of us who were escorted out of town contact Christain Laywer groups like the ACLU to defend them in Court. Yes, the Muslims had weapons and we disarmed them.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
To be consistent, though, the so-called free West is responsible for many multitudes more deaths through its own wars-for-profit and abortion. And the battles of Protestants vs. Catholics through the ages could be used to argue Christianity is also a great evil.
The 10 Deadliest Genocides in History
Bangladesh Genocide
Darfur Genocide
Rwandan Genocide
Armenian Genocide
Circassian Genocide
Khmer Rouge “Killing Fields”
Holodomor
The Holocaust
The Great Leap Forward
Mongol Invasions and Conquests
https://www.borgenmagazine.com/worlds-worst-genocides/

Most Horrific Genocides In Human History By Death Toll
Rank Genocide Year(s) Location Death Toll (Estimated)
1 The Holocaust 1939-1945 Nazi Europe 5 million to 17 million
2 Holodomor 1932-1933 Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic 1.8 million to 7.5 million
3 Cambodian Genocide 1975-1979 Democratic Kampuchea 1.3 million to 3 million
4 Kazakh Genocide 1931-1933 Kazakh Soviet Socialist Republic 1.3 million to 1.75 million
5 Armenian Genocide 1915-1922 Ottoman Empire 700,000 to 1.5 million
6 Rwandan Genocide 1994 Rwanda 500,000 to 1 million
7 Zunghar Genocide 1775-1758 Qing Dynasty 480,000 to 600,000
8 Circassian Genocide 1864-1867 Circassia 400,000 to 1.5 million
9 Genocide by the Ustashe 1941-1945 Independent State of Croatia 357,000 to 600,000
10 Bangladesh Genocide 1971 Bangladesh 300,000 to 3 million
11 Greek Genocide 1914-1922 Ottoman Empire 289,000 to 750,000
12 Assyrian Genocide 1915-1923 Ottoman Empire 275,000 to 750,000
13 Indigenous Brazilian Genocide 1900-1985 Brazil 235,000 to 800,000
14 Punic Genocide 149 BC Carthage 150,000
15 Porajmos 1935-1945 Nazi Europe 130,000 to 500,000
SHARE




Oishimaya Sen Nag May 15 2018 in World Facts
Home
World Facts
The Worst Genocides In History
Related
The 9/11 memorial in New York. Editorial credit: pisaphotography / Shutterstock.com.
Worst Terrorist Attacks In World History
Due to his perceived failures at handling sectional divisions in the country that precipitated the Civil War, James Buchanan is often ranked as the worst U.S. President.
The 10 Worst Presidents In The History Of The United States
Mudslides differ from landslides as they are characterized by heavy rain and the movement of debris.
The Worst Mudslides In History
The bacteria yersinia pestis was responsible for the Bubonic Plague, or the Black Plague.

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/most-horrific-genocides-in-human-history.html
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
20th Century Genocides and Mass Atrocities

StateDatesNumbers KilledCircumstancesChina1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-5049-78,000,000purges, Great Leap Forward, Cultural RevolutionUSSR1932-3923,000,000the purges plus Ukraine's famineGermany1939-194512,000,000concentration camps and civilians WWIICongo1886-19088,000,000imperialismJapan1941-445,000,000civilians in WWIITurkey1915-20
1,200,000 Armenians,1915
350,000 Greek Pontians, 1915
480,000 Anatolian Greeks, 1916-22
500,000 Assyrians, 1915-20
ethnic cleansingCambodia1975-791,700,000purges and concentration campsNorth Korea1948-941,600,000purges and concentration campsEthiopia1975-781,500,000purgesBiafra1967-19701,000,000ethnic cleansingAfghanistan1979-1982900,000purges and rebellionRwanda1994800,000ethnic cleansingIraqIran 1980-1990 and Kurdistan 1987-88600,000war and ethnic cleansingYugoslavia1945-1987570,000ethnic cleansingIndonesia1965-66500,000purgesJapan1937-39500,000genocide of Chinese civiliansAngola1975-2002400,000civil warAfghanistan1986-2001400,000civil warUganda1969-1979300,000civil warPakistan1970-71300,000BangladeshItaly1934-45
Ethiopia, 1936
Libya, 1934-45 300,000
Yugoslavia
imperialism
https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/pol116/genocides.htm
https://www.skillsphere.org/global-jigyasas/genocides-in-the-20th-century/
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/us-history-riddled-with-massacres-genocide/2261696
https://thepromisetoact.org/modern-genocides/
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/most-horrific-genocides-in-human-history.html
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
In context? Can you provide proof of this from their Quran?

I know unbelievers will often claim things about Christians which are totally untrue, based on a verse or two taken out of context - e.g.
1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

But that is one passage in the bible, for one time and one event - a historical event, rather than a universal command. When confronted with the statement that Muslims are commanded to kill, Muslims will often argue that such passages are taken out of context. I'm just interested to know if you've seen any such passages, and if they are indeed taken out of context.

(I'm content to know the religion is wrong, and so haven't researched too deeply into it).
I already provided proof, read the posts.
 

Moses_Young

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
9,938
5,505
113
I already provided proof, read the posts.
Your posts were a little vague and seemed biased - not necessarily bad, but less convincing (unless I missed the one you referred to). The one below from Magenta provides a succinct link for anyone else interested.

https://christianchat.com/arab-chri...dback-appreciated.196621/page-10#post-4851894

I suppose my question then is what about all the Muslims who are not like this? I have met Muslims who were "good" people (so far as man can be good) - certainly caring, considerate people - doctors, educated people, folk who contribute to society and help others - Muslim or no. Are they then bad Muslims? Or is there more than one way to interpret the Quran? I suspect the latter, but would like to hear more.

If you take atheism at face value, it also is an evil doctrine and atheists (if consistent) should never have morals and be totally depraved people. However, this is untrue also for the most part. In this, I agree that atheists are inconsistent with their religion and their actions.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
Your posts were a little vague and seemed biased - not necessarily bad, but less convincing (unless I missed the one you referred to). The one below from Magenta provides a succinct link for anyone else interested.

https://christianchat.com/arab-chri...dback-appreciated.196621/page-10#post-4851894

I suppose my question then is what about all the Muslims who are not like this? I have met Muslims who were "good" people (so far as man can be good) - certainly caring, considerate people - doctors, educated people, folk who contribute to society and help others - Muslim or no. Are they then bad Muslims? Or is there more than one way to interpret the Quran? I suspect the latter, but would like to hear more.

If you take atheism at face value, it also is an evil doctrine and atheists (if consistent) should never have morals and be totally depraved people. However, this is untrue also for the most part. In this, I agree that atheists are inconsistent with their religion and their actions.
Yes, some Muslims are good people and I think you agree without the real Jesus they are not going to heaven. I am a member of N.E.S.T. (Nuclear Engergy Search Support ) with a large population in Dearborn as such I encounter the worse Muslims in my area. Yes, we have disabled many Nuclear Weapons in the USA. I know many Atheists who are also good moral people. Somewhere scripture says the moral related laws are written on people's hearts.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
"Surah 9 (Tawbah) verses 33, Surah 61 (As-Saff) verse 9, and Surah 28 (Al-Fath) verse 28, Surah 2 (Al-Baqra) verse 193 and Surah 42 (Ash-Shurah) verse 13. These verses talk about the dominancy of Islam and Muslims over all other religions.Surah 5 (Tawbah) verses 5, 29 and 123, talking about Islamic Jihad to kill and clear polytheist and also to subjugate Jews and Christians. Surah 98 (Al-Baiyyinah) verse 6 declaring Kafirs (Infidels) as the worst creatures of God. Surah 3 (Al- Imran) verses 19 and 85, declaring Islam as the only acceptable religion to God. Surah 5 (Al-Maida) verses 51, which states that Jews and Christians cannot be made friends. Surah 9 (Tawbah) verses 111, the most powerful that God has promised paradise to only those who fight in his way. :"
https://digital.lib.washington.edu/...d=34B02D183AD53DC10BA6F8E0CC512290?sequence=1
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
Quran 9:5 - ... slay the unbelievers wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush..
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
Quran 2:191-193 - And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.) (Translation: The Noble Quran)
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
"
Does the Quran really contain over a hundred verses that sanction violence?

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that speak of war with nonbelievers, usually on the basis of their status as non-Muslims. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.
Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, most verses of violence in the Quran are open-ended, meaning that they are not necessarily restrained by historical context contained in the surrounding text (although many Muslims choose to think of them that way). They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subject to interpretation as anything else in the Quran.

The context of violent passages is more ambiguous than might be expected of a perfect book from a loving God."
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
Quran
Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things." (See also: Response to Apologists)

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot. (See also: Response to Apologists)

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help." (See also: Response to Apologists)

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah'). (See also: Response to Apologists)

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers. (See also: Response to Apologists)

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (Satan, etc.). So fight you against the friends of Shaitan (Satan)" The Arabic for the word "fight" is from qital, meaning physical combat.

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks." (See also: Response to Apologists)

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc.), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home).Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward " This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is this Arabic word (mujahiduna) used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad, which would not make sense if it meant an internal struggle). (See also: Response to Apologists)

Quran (4:101) - "And when you (Muslims) travel in the land, there is no sin on you if you shorten your Salat (prayer) if you fear that the disbelievers may attack you, verily, the disbelievers are ever unto you open enemies." Mere disbelief makes one an "open" enemy of Muslims.

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?
 

Moses_Young

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
9,938
5,505
113
Quran 9:5 - ... slay the unbelievers wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush..
Okay. Just reading this one in context - and I know very little about the Quran...

[9:1] This is a declaration of disavowal by Allah and His Messenger to those who associate others with Allah in His Divinity and with whom you have made treaties:
[9:2] "You may go about freely in the land, for four months, but know well that you will not be able to frustrate Allah, and that Allah will bring disgrace upon those who deny the Truth."
[9:3] This is a public proclamation by Allah and His Messenger to all people on the day of the Great Pilgrimage: "Allah is free from all obligation to those who associate others with Allah in His Divinity; and so is His Messenger. If you repent, it shall be for your own good; but if you turn away, then know well that you will not be able to frustrate Allah. So give glad tidings of a painful chastisement to those who disbelieve.
[9:4] In exception to those who associate others with Allah in His Divinity are those with whom you have made treaties and who have not violated their treaties nor have backed up anyone against you. Fulfil your treaties with them till the end of their term. Surely Allah loves the pious."
[9:5] But when the sacred months expire slay those who associate others with Allah in His Divinity wherever you find them; seize them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them. But if they repent and establish the Prayer and pay Zakah, leave them alone. Surely Allah is All-Forgiving, Ever-Merciful.

This passage seems to be referring to a specific time and place - for four months, and the day of the Great Pilgrimage (i.e. not an ongoing requirement for Muslims). I'm happy for you to explain it more if you think I've misinterpreted.