‘OLAM’ AND ‘AION’ vs ‘AIONIOS’

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WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0
#1
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I’ve been doing quite a bit of studying on when the KJV or the other older bible versions use the English words “forever” and “eternal” in both the OT and the NT .

“In the Septuagint the Greek word, aion, is used to translate the Hebrew word olam.” Quoted from “HopeBeyondHell” pg 22.

The following passages are referring to olam to show clearly it cannot mean ―never-ending in those texts.”

Using the Strong’s Concordance, here are the Greek and Hebrew translations of aion and olam. Please note: When “aionios” is used - G166, this does mean perpetual, eternal, forever, everlasting.

G165
aiōn
properly an age; by extension perpetuity(also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

G5550
chronos
khron'-os
Of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in genitive case, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension an individual opportunity; by implication delay: - + years old, season, space, (X often-) time (-s), (a) while.


H5769
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.

Here are a few OT verses that use “olam”, which does not make sense in lieu of same or other scriptures related to the topic:

· Jonah was in the fish forever [olam]. But only untilhe left three days later (Jon. 1:17; 2:6).

Jon 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever (STRONGS h5769 – OLAM): yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Jon 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

· Sodom‘s fiery judgment is eternal [olam]. But only untilGod returns them to their former state (Ez. 16:53-55; Ju. 7).

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal (STRONGS G166 = AIONIOS) fire.

Ezekial 16:53-55 When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them: That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them. When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.


· A Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord‘s congregation forever [olam]. But only untilthe 10th generation. (De. 23:3).

Deuteronomy 23:3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever (olam):

· Hills are everlasting [olam]. But only untilmade low and the earth is burned up (Ge. 49:26; De. 33:15; Is. 40:4; 2Pe. 3:10).

· Mountains are everlasting [olam]. But only untilthey are scattered (Hab. 3:6).

· A slave serves his master forever [olam]. But only untildeath ends his servitude (Ex. 21:6).

· The Mosaic covenant is everlasting [olam]. But only untilit vanishes away (Le. 24:8;
He. 8:7-13).

· The Aaronic priesthood is everlasting [olam]. But only untilthe likeness of Melchizedek arises (Ex. 40:15; Nu. 25:13; He. 7:14-22).

· The leprosy of Naaman shall cling forever [olam]. But only untilhis death, of course (2K. 5:27).

· God dwells in Solomon‘s temple forever [olam]. But only untilit is destroyed (2Ch. 7:16; 1K 8:13; 9:3).

· Animal sacrifices were to be offered forever [olam]. But only untilended by the work of Christ (2Ch. 2:4; He. 7:11-10:18).

· Circumcision was an everlasting [olam] covenant. But only untilthe new covenant (Ge. 17:9-13; 1Co. 7:19; Ga. 5:6).

· Israel‘s judgment lasts forever [olam]. But only untilthe Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Is. 32:13-15).

· I will make you an eternal [olam] excellence. But only untilmany generations (Is. 60:15).


Is there a doctrine to be derived from these scriptures? Or do these scriptures validate doctrines regarding things that are eternal, forever and everlasting?

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#2
oh I see you are saying some of the verses might be a mistranslation?
 
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WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0
#3
In view of these verses that obviously do not mean literally eternal, forever or everlasting, is it enough instances to warrant further study of the doctrine of “Eternal and Forever and Everlasting Fire Torment.”? Could it be that God's plan is to punish for a defined amount of time, for an age, a period of time that does end at some point, but is not set into indefinitely?

I believe no one will escape without punishment or better phrased, purification. Mark 9:49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

God is righteous and He is Love. A father who loves his children will discipline them, not torment them. A father cannot make a child love him back, but as seen in the prodigal son, the father is delighted when his son returns. The father in the prodigal son saw his son a far off and ran out to meet him as the son was on his way home. The father was watching daily for his son's return. The son went through a sort of hell and when he came to his senses he desired to go home and be a servant only to his father and his father's household. The father rejoiced when his son returned. The older brother was angered for having stayed and done the right thing all along and that this wayward brother would be lovingly accepted back home.



Doe this story represent our Heavenly Father God and how He will respond to those children who demanded to have things their own way?
 
H

Hearer

Guest
#4
In view of these verses that obviously do not mean literally eternal, forever or everlasting, is it enough instances to warrant further study of the doctrine of “Eternal and Forever and Everlasting Fire Torment.”? Could it be that God's plan is to punish for a defined amount of time, for an age, a period of time that does end at some point, but is not set into indefinitely?

I believe no one will escape without punishment or better phrased, purification. Mark 9:49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

God is righteous and He is Love. A father who loves his children will discipline them, not torment them. A father cannot make a child love him back, but as seen in the prodigal son, the father is delighted when his son returns. The father in the prodigal son saw his son a far off and ran out to meet him as the son was on his way home. The father was watching daily for his son's return. The son went through a sort of hell and when he came to his senses he desired to go home and be a servant only to his father and his father's household. The father rejoiced when his son returned. The older brother was angered for having stayed and done the right thing all along and that this wayward brother would be lovingly accepted back home.



Doe this story represent our Heavenly Father God and how He will respond to those children who demanded to have things their own way?
oyu are teaching us about grace. But let us be careful we do not presume upon our salvation and rather come each day to God for his mercy. Each day and not presume to speak of eternal things.
 
S

Shwagga

Guest
#5
Is there a doctrine to be derived from these scriptures? Or do these scriptures validate doctrines regarding things that are eternal, forever and everlasting?
It depends on the context. None of those passages you posted actually prove anything. You never gave any alternative explanations or even cared to explain why they cannot mean eternal.

If you are unable to read or speak the language(s) you are trying to teach, there might be a bigger problem we're facing here.. Anyway, sorry I missed your entire point. Could you inform me?
 
S

Shwagga

Guest
#6
Never mind, I just noticed this is an article from another website. I'd rather not argue about an article or ask someone to defend the authors position when the author is not even here.

Blessings!
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#7
I know defining Olam is VERY vital for a certain eschatological interpretation of the Bible.. *wink*
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#9
No no, I don't think the issue of how to translate has to do with universalism. If everlasting really means an age, or just an undefined period of time, then when God said his covenant with Abraham was an everlasting one, it might not mean forever in the sense we think of forever. And if it's not the forever we think it is, then that does a lot when you have to iron out issues of Jews and Gentiles and land and the church and end times.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#10
In view of these verses that obviously do not mean literally eternal, forever or everlasting, is it enough instances to warrant further study of the doctrine of “Eternal and Forever and Everlasting Fire Torment.”? Could it be that God's plan is to punish for a defined amount of time, for an age, a period of time that does end at some point, but is not set into indefinitely?

I believe no one will escape without punishment or better phrased, purification. Mark 9:49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

God is righteous and He is Love. A father who loves his children will discipline them, not torment them. A father cannot make a child love him back, but as seen in the prodigal son, the father is delighted when his son returns. The father in the prodigal son saw his son a far off and ran out to meet him as the son was on his way home. The father was watching daily for his son's return. The son went through a sort of hell and when he came to his senses he desired to go home and be a servant only to his father and his father's household. The father rejoiced when his son returned. The older brother was angered for having stayed and done the right thing all along and that this wayward brother would be lovingly accepted back home.



Doe this story represent our Heavenly Father God and how He will respond to those children who demanded to have things their own way?
Ok I see where the universalism claim came in.

I think you'll have to find the NT words that refer to eternal punishment, and state your case that eternal/everlasting doesn't mean it in the sense that we think it does. That's going to be an IMPOSSIBLE case to make.

Yes in the OT we have translated OLAM to be everlasting, when it fact it may not mean that. But the OT is in Hebrew. The NT is mostly in Greek. We can't argue Greek definitions based on Hebrew word definitions.

So go back to your NT. Find NT words that talk about forever/everlasting, and show where those Greek words don't mean FOREVER. You won't be able to do it.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#11
Matthew 25:46
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Jude 1:7
(7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Notice that the punishment is eternal not the punishing. Sodom and Gomorrha are not burning today that is an example of what will happen

Revelation 20:7-9
(7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
(8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:14
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Notice that it says the fire comes on the earth and that they are devoured and that hell (grave) is cast into the lake of fire. Also since the fire is on the earth then God will create a new earth when the fire goes out. The punishment is eternal but not the punishing,

2 Peter 3:10-11
(10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(11) Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Revelation 21:1
(1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
 
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