The Sabbath, sunday, and christmas

[phil112]

As I read back thru the bible there are many things that come to mind. Altho we may know these things already, it is always profitable to refreshen our mind.

2 Peter 1:Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

As I read Acts, the establishment of the early church makes me think once again upon our current worship. Christ was resurrected on sunday and the first known meeting of the new testament church was also on sunday. Christmas supposedly recognizes Jesus' earthly birthday, which as we all know, did not occur any where near dec 25th.

Think about it for awhile. Let your mind entertain this topic. We go to church on sunday. Why? Because that is His resurrection day. Every sunday. And when we aren't in church we keep our mind on Him daily and pray daily. That is how we serve Christ today. 24/7/265. Christ and His word put zero emphasis on His physical b-day. The two days from Him that hold significance for us is the day He died on the cross and the day He rose from the grave. That is how we obtain salvation.

Those that worship on the sabbath are trying to keep the law, which they will fail at, as the bible clearly tells us, and those that hold christmas as a religious holiday are doing so without any prompting from the bible. Myself, I would do more than hesitate to claim that I was serving God by honoring Him on a day rooted in paganism.

Serve God all day every day. Take His word to heart and live your life by it and thru it. We have scripture that tells us the sabbath is not meant for us and there is no profit in observing it. We have scripture that shows the early church meeting on sunday, and by example, we should understand the reason for that. Those folks lived in that day. They were there when Christ died. They were more intent on serving Him than anyone up to that time. Remember, they virtually took a religion they were raised with all their life and overhauled it completely. That is a hard thing to do. For me, what they did has meaning and since God approved of them and their manner of worship, I see that as good reason to emulate their practice.

 

[john832]

As I read back thru the bible there are many things that come to mind. Altho we may know these things already, it is always profitable to refreshen our mind.

2 Peter 1:Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

As I read Acts, the establishment of the early church makes me think once again upon our current worship. Christ was resurrected on sunday and the first known meeting of the new testament church was also on sunday. Christmas supposedly recognizes Jesus' earthly birthday, which as we all know, did not occur any where near dec 25th.

Think about it for awhile. Let your mind entertain this topic. We go to church on sunday. Why? Because that is His resurrection day. Every sunday. And when we aren't in church we keep our mind on Him daily and pray daily. That is how we serve Christ today. 24/7/265. Christ and His word put zero emphasis on His physical b-day. The two days from Him that hold significance for us is the day He died on the cross and the day He rose from the grave. That is how we obtain salvation.

Those that worship on the sabbath are trying to keep the law, which they will fail at, as the bible clearly tells us, and those that hold christmas as a religious holiday are doing so without any prompting from the bible. Myself, I would do more than hesitate to claim that I was serving God by honoring Him on a day rooted in paganism.

Serve God all day every day. Take His word to heart and live your life by it and thru it. We have scripture that tells us the sabbath is not meant for us and there is no profit in observing it. We have scripture that shows the early church meeting on sunday, and by example, we should understand the reason for that. Those folks lived in that day. They were there when Christ died. They were more intent on serving Him than anyone up to that time. Remember, they virtually took a religion they were raised with all their life and overhauled it completely. That is a hard thing to do. For me, what they did has meaning and since God approved of them and their manner of worship, I see that as good reason to emulate their practice.

Rather than to get into a discussion of these things and rehash this, let me state this and I am then done...

Christ did not rise on Sunday morning, the first known meeting of the N.T. church was on Pentecost (Feast Day) and xmas is a continuation of a pagan celebration (the Saturnalia) that is about 4000 years old and goes clear back to Nimrod and Tammuz.

Over and out.

 

[JimmieD]

xmas is a continuation of a pagan celebration (the Saturnalia)

Even though Saturnalia occurs between 17-23 Dec, while Christmas is on 25 Dec? If you're going to claim that Christmas borrowed or absorbed the former Saturnalia, don't you think they should at least have the same dates?

And what about eastern Christians that celebrate Christmas on 6/7 Jan?

 

[john832]

Even though Saturnalia occurs between 17-23 Dec, while Christmas is on 25 Dec? If you're going to claim that Christmas borrowed or absorbed the former Saturnalia, don't you think they should at least have the same dates?

And what about eastern Christians that celebrate Christmas on 6/7 Jan?

As much as I'd like to show you it is an adaptation added by the great universal church in the fourth century, I am not going to in this thread. Like I said...

Over and out.

 

[JimmieD]

As much as I'd like to show you it is an adaptation added by the great universal church in the fourth century, I am not going to in this thread. Like I said...

Ok, you said your two cents worth so it was appropriate that I added mine.

 

[Blain]

Oh Phil... I hope you came with a metal suite of armor because the subjects you are speaking of will bring war. I am not saying they shouldn't be discussed and understood I am only saying I hope you are prepared for a brutal debate

 

[gotime]

As I read back thru the bible there are many things that come to mind. Altho we may know these things already, it is always profitable to refreshen our mind.

2 Peter 1:Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

As I read Acts, the establishment of the early church makes me think once again upon our current worship. Christ was resurrected on sunday and the first known meeting of the new testament church was also on sunday. Christmas supposedly recognizes Jesus' earthly birthday, which as we all know, did not occur any where near dec 25th.

Think about it for awhile. Let your mind entertain this topic. We go to church on sunday. Why? Because that is His resurrection day. Every sunday. And when we aren't in church we keep our mind on Him daily and pray daily. That is how we serve Christ today. 24/7/265. Christ and His word put zero emphasis on His physical b-day. The two days from Him that hold significance for us is the day He died on the cross and the day He rose from the grave. That is how we obtain salvation.

Those that worship on the sabbath are trying to keep the law, which they will fail at, as the bible clearly tells us, and those that hold christmas as a religious holiday are doing so without any prompting from the bible. Myself, I would do more than hesitate to claim that I was serving God by honoring Him on a day rooted in paganism.

Serve God all day every day. Take His word to heart and live your life by it and thru it. We have scripture that tells us the sabbath is not meant for us and there is no profit in observing it. We have scripture that shows the early church meeting on sunday, and by example, we should understand the reason for that. Those folks lived in that day. They were there when Christ died. They were more intent on serving Him than anyone up to that time. Remember, they virtually took a religion they were raised with all their life and overhauled it completely. That is a hard thing to do. For me, what they did has meaning and since God approved of them and their manner of worship, I see that as good reason to emulate their practice.

I always find it interesting that this argument is still used. namely the meeting on the Sunday. Now we all agree they did meet but the issue is so what? It says nothing other than they met. The bible speaks of them meeting every day. This is possible one of the worst arguments for Sunday worship.

As far as the resurrection, that's great but there is not one place in the whole bible that says that Sunday is sacred because Jesus Rose on it. so again both arguments are mere additions and speculations to what Scripture actually says.

Jesus gave us baptism which celebrates Jesus Death and resurrection. and even ordinances which remind us of these things which we can do as often as we want.

but no where does He give us Sunday as a day to remember anything. Is it wrong to remember Christ on Sunday? no but that is not the point.

I also find this interesting, that Those who would promote Sunday seem to think a mere mention of Christians meeting on Sunday, grounds to argue for Sunday observance. Yet they ignore and dismiss the fact that the early church also went to synagogue on the 7th day Sabbath as evidence of the 7th Day Sabbath. The main difference between those days is one is actually called the Sabbath in the bible and the other (Sunday) is only referred to as merely the day they had a meeting.

not only that but they argue Sabbath does not need to be kept yet still keep Sunday that one confuses me.

And this argument that the Sabbath can't be kept is said by those who have not really studied it properly. It is not hard to keep the Sabbath. In Fact I have met Sunday keepers who if they would keep the 7th day the way they keep Sunday then they would be keeping the Sabbath.

Any way just a few things I find in-congruent in this teaching.

 

[Chopper]

Rather than to get into a discussion of these things and rehash this, let me state this and I am then done...

Christ did not rise on Sunday morning, the first known meeting of the N.T. church was on Pentecost (Feast Day) and xmas is a continuation of a pagan celebration (the Saturnalia) that is about 4000 years old and goes clear back to Nimrod and Tammuz.

Over and out.

Pppsssstt... John. I think you're correct to at least the resurrection on the first day when they went to the tomb, because He was already risen!

Didn't He say in three days, and not three days and three nights?

Oooohh wait!
There's another point to consider.
The shepherds were in the fields when they were notified of the birth of ha'Mashiah....
Last time I checked, shepherds don't stay in the fields attending to sheep in unbearable weather.

Then again, we probably also need to consider using a correct calendar, according to both the sun and moon.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

That is how we serve Christ today. 24/7/265.

265? What do you do on the other 100 days? I'm just messing with you...I'm sure that it was a typo.

On a serious note, however, technically, this is incorrect:

The two days from Him that hold significance for us is the day He died on the cross and the day He rose from the grave. That is how we obtain salvation.

IOW, you left out Christ's ascension back to His/our Father. If He didn't ascend, then we'd have no mediator Who is seated at the right hand of the Father Who intercedes for us.

There's also this:

We have scripture that shows the early church meeting on sunday, and by example, we should understand the reason for that.

Acts chapter 2

[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
[40] And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
[41] Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
[42] And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
[43] And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
[44] And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
[45] And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
[46] And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
[47] Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

The early church met DAILY...not just on Sundays.

P.S.

I hear you on the Christmas thing. Here is when I believe that the Bible tells us Jesus was born:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/103724-when-jesus-born-4.html#post1800394

 

[prove-all]

Christmas supposedly recognizes Jesus' earthly birthday, which as we all know, did not occur any where near dec 25th.

Think about it for awhile. Let your mind entertain this topic. We go to church on sunday. Why?

Because that is His resurrection day. Every sunday. .

Then why does everyone do it, if you know it is wrong time of year, an theres no such thing as santa.

most of the world follows sunday sabbath because,

On 7 March 321, Constantine I, Rome's first Christian Emperor,
decreed that Sunday would be observed as the Roman day of rest:

On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest,
and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost.

In 363, Canon 29 of the Council of Laodicea prohibited observance of the Jewish Sabbath (Saturday),
and encouraged Christians to work on the Saturday and rest on the Lord's Day (Sunday).


As I read Acts and other bible books, the establishment of the early church ,

as Jesus custom was to keep the sabbath, and paul did like wise , teaching on the sabbath

 

[JimmieD]

Oooohh wait!
There's another point to consider.
The shepherds were in the fields when they were notified of the birth of ha'Mashiah....
Last time I checked, shepherds don't stay in the fields attending to sheep in unbearable weather.

We know from historical sources that pasture animals, such as sheep, were out in fields year round in Israel (Beitzah 40a). The typical usage of the "shepherds in the field" to determine birth times for Jesus is severely flawed considering they were out and about year round.

Our Rabbis taught: The following are pasture animals and the following are household animals. Pasture animals are such as are led out about [the time of] Passover and graze in more distant meadows, and who are led in at the time of the first rainfall. The following are household animals: Such as are led out and graze outside the city-border. Rabbi says: Both of these are household animals; but pasture animals are such as are led out and graze in [more distant] meadows and who do not return to the habitation of men either in summer or in winter.

 

[prove-all]

Didn't He say in three days, and not three days and three nights?

.

Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah.
And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall
the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

you can not have good friday and easter sunrise, Jesus would be a false prophet then​

​

 

[Kerry]

Talk about missing the point. Jesus said to the Pharisee's you strain out a gnat but can't see the elephant. Those who have ears to hear let them hear.

 

[ChristIsGod]

Even though Saturnalia occurs between 17-23 Dec, while Christmas is on 25 Dec? If you're going to claim that Christmas borrowed or absorbed the former Saturnalia, don't you think they should at least have the same dates?

And what about eastern Christians that celebrate Christmas on 6/7 Jan?

I'd suggest you type into google "Christmas - Saturnalia" and you'll find it's connection with those in Rome combining pagan holidays with satisfying the christians by Constantine and coming up with .............. well, that's another whole topic ... but many times - just a simple search avoids tons of debates that can hurt some and burn some.

 

[ChristIsGod]

All roads lead to Rome and all roads out from Rome lead back to Babylon.

But it's sort of a divisive topic when we get onto things that are almost 1700 yrs old.
I just don't feel this is a Salvational issue and could cause even the more division between good Brothers and Sisters.

I myself have looked into this as well and prayed about it much - but the Lord gave me a peace that those that love Him are keeping the day "as unto the Lord" and that my unsaved family will not understand why I don't want to be with them all if I didn't go to their home for Christmas ... I think it's self-righteous for me to raise myself over them when they need to know Who Jesus is and I find really good cards and focus on Him whenever the Lord opens that door when I'm with them during these days. They can be beautiful if done in the Spirit and I would be self-righteous indeed if I began to try to take from the Saints what does not affect their Salvation. period


Adding = and even many of the Christmas songs are a witness.

 

[KohenMatt]

As I read Acts, the establishment of the early church makes me think once again upon our current worship. Christ was resurrected on sunday and the first known meeting of the new testament church was also on sunday.

Resurrection on Sunday? Debateable.
1st known meeting of the NT church? Pentecost (Ironically a day very few Christians celebrate). Then they proceeded to met EVERY day, especially the Sabbath

Christmas supposedly recognizes Jesus' earthly birthday, which as we all know, did not occur any where near dec 25th.

Correct.

Those that worship on the sabbath are trying to keep the law, which they will fail at, as the bible clearly tells us,

Personally, I observe the Sabbath, but not for the Law's sake, but because God said to. And yes, I will fail at keeping it perfectly. But that doesn't mean you don't stop keeping it. Fortunately, there's nothing riding on my works or lack thereof regarding my salvation.

and those that hold christmas as a religious holiday are doing so without any prompting from the bible. Myself, I would do more than hesitate to claim that I was serving God by honoring Him on a day rooted in paganism.

Correct.

Serve God all day every day. Take His word to heart and live your life by it and thru it. We have scripture that tells us the sabbath is not meant for us and there is no profit in observing it.

I disagree here. Which Scriptures tell us this, and in what context are those alleged Scriptures in?

We have scripture that shows the early church meeting on sunday, and by example, we should understand the reason for that. Those folks lived in that day. They were there when Christ died. They were more intent on serving Him than anyone up to that time.

We also have Scripture showing they met on the Sabbath, and by example, we should understand the reason for that.

Remember, they virtually took a religion they were raised with all their life and overhauled it completely. That is a hard thing to do.

Not true, and nowhere is this mentioned. They certainly did some different things, but nothing that was contrary to what God had already set up.

For me, what they did has meaning and since God approved of them and their manner of worship, I see that as good reason to emulate their practice.

I agree completely. I think we just different views on what their practice really was.

Regardless, many good thoughts in here!

 

[skipp]

All roads lead to Rome and all roads out from Rome lead back to Babylon.

But it's sort of a divisive topic when we get onto things that are almost 1700 yrs old.
I just don't feel this is a Salvational issue and could cause even the more division between good Brothers and Sisters.

I myself have looked into this as well and prayed about it much - but the Lord gave me a peace that those that love Him are keeping the day "as unto the Lord" and that my unsaved family will not understand why I don't want to be with them all if I didn't go to their home for Christmas ... I think it's self-righteous for me to raise myself over them when they need to know Who Jesus is and I find really good cards and focus on Him whenever the Lord opens that door when I'm with them during these days. They can be beautiful if done in the Spirit and I would be self-righteous indeed if I began to try to take from the Saints what does not affect their Salvation. period


Adding = and even many of the Christmas songs are a witness.

This is such a wise post. God bless you.

 

[JimmieD]

I'd suggest you type into google "Christmas - Saturnalia" and you'll find it's connection with those in Rome combining pagan holidays with satisfying the christians by Constantine and coming up with .............. well, that's another whole topic ... but many times - just a simple search avoids tons of debates that can hurt some and burn some.

(1) "Google it" is not a reference. Do you have any primary sources that indicate that Christmas originated from Saturnalia?

(2) Saturnalia runs 17-23 Dec. You have still not explained the discrepancy between those dates and the fact that Christmas is 25 Dec. This seems to be a rather inconvenient thing that dispels the idea that Christmas was really Saturnalia. It seems pretty self evident that if one holiday was borrowing from or absorbing another, then they ought to have the same dates.

(3) What's your explanation for Christmas being 6 Jan in Eastern Christianity? This one is pretty close to 25 Dec, but clearly cannot be associated with any known pagan feast.

(4) We have historical sources that indicate 25 Dec and 6 Jan were celebrated much earlier than Constantine (Hippolytus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian). Writing in the later 4th century, John Chrysostom gives a reason for 25 Dec based on the courses of the priest in the temple and nothing to do with Saturnalia.

Perhaps you should do the research before telling others to do so? Do you have any source material or anything to offer other than whatever randomness Google returns?

 

[Angela53510]

Just so people know, the reason the Orthodox Church celebrates on Jan 6/7, is because it uses the Julian calendar, not the Gregorian. The Gregorian Calendar was revised, and is actually the right number of days in a year.

The Julian calendar has gradually fallen behind, but because the pope is the one who tried to get everyone to follow the Gregorian calendar, and thy Orthodox Church does not acknowledge the pope as the head of the church, it was decided to keep to the older, less accurate calendar.

On the other hand, growing up half Ukrainian, I got to celebrate Christmas twice - once on Dec. 25, and once in Jan. The food was great, and getting together with that side of the family resulted in deep bonds with those cousins.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled debate!

The Difference Between Julian and Gregorian Calendars

 

[JimmieD]

Just so people know, the reason the Orthodox Church celebrates on Jan 6/7, is because it uses the Julian calendar, not the Gregorian. The Gregorian Calendar was revised, and is actually the right number of days in a year.

The Julian calendar has gradually fallen behind, but because the pope is the one who tried to get everyone to follow the Gregorian calendar, and thy Orthodox Church does not acknowledge the pope as the head of the church, it was decided to keep to the older, less accurate calendar.

On the other hand, growing up half Ukrainian, I got to celebrate Christmas twice - once on Dec. 25, and once in Jan. The food was great, and getting together with that side of the family resulted in deep bonds with those cousins.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled debate!

The Difference Between Julian and Gregorian Calendars

We have references of Christians observing 6 Jan & 25 Dec long before the Gregorian calendar reforms in 1582. So, I'm afraid the Gregorian calendar reform does not explain why early Christians were celebrating those 2 dates.