THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[Mitspa]

2Co 3:6 ¶ Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Ministration of DEATH, written and engraved on stones ...only the Ten Commandments was written and engraved on stones. That has passed away and we now serve God. not according to the "letter" but according to the "Spirit"

 

[Hizikyah]

How does one know if the Spirit they are following is of Yahweh.

Since the Spirit says the EXACT same thing as the Law; judging what one thinks is ok, against the Scripture say is ok would be my personal method.

Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

"Law" is word #H8451 - torah - torah: direction, instruction, law Original Word: תּוֹרָה Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: torah

Or is it that as soon as I physically read, "do not steal" and physically think, wow I shouldn't steal, it is then im evil and fallen because I read "the LETTER of the Law"

 

[Hizikyah]

How does one know if the Spirit they are following is of Yahweh.

Since the Spirit says the EXACT same thing as the Law; judging what one thinks is ok, against the Scripture say is ok would be my personal method.

Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

"Law" is word #H8451 - torah - torah: direction, instruction, law Original Word: תּוֹרָה Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: torah

Or is it that as soon as I physically read, "do not steal" and physically think, wow I shouldn't steal, it is then im evil and fallen because I read "the LETTER of the Law"

Or is "the LETTER of the Law"

something different, a different understanding than what we have 2,000 years later.

Could "the LETTER of the Law" teaching POSSIBLY be what the Pharisees had done by taking Instructions dismantling them?

Example:

The "rabbis" interpret Scripture by something called Midrashic interpretation, which ignores language and ignores context. They say Scripture is a divne code and only the rabbis have the knowledge to decipher that divine code. Here is an ACTUAL example of Midrashic interpretation used by the rabbis:

They take Exodus 23:2, "Do not follow the crowd in doing evil. When you give testimony in a lawsuit, do not pervert justice by siding with the crowd."

After Midrashic interpretation is applied, they come out with : "follow the crowd."

Thus even when one disagrees or knows something is wrong he must, "follow the crowd," or as the Talmud puts it in Baba Metzia 59b (top of post), "after the majority must one incline."

Deuteronomy 30:11-13, "For this Law which I command you this day is not hidden from you, nor is it beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask; Who will ascend up into heaven for us, and bring it to us, so that we may hear it and then do it? Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask; Who will cross the sea, and bring it to us, so that we may hear it and then do it?"

After Midrashic interpretation is applied, they come out with : "‘It is not in heaven.’4 What did he mean by this? — Said R. Jeremiah: That the Torah had already been given at Mount Sinai; we pay no attention to a Heavenly Voice" (Baba Metzia 59b)

Mattithyah 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them:
And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"

Mattithyah 15:8-9, "These people draw near to Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

Mattithyah 5:43-44, "You have heard that it has been said: You will love your brother--but hate your enemies; But I say to you; Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do well to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."

Most people think Yahshua is rebuking "OT", not at all, nowhere in Yahweh's words is this hate taught. This hate comes from the Talmud of the pharisees. Yahweh's words says:

Leviticus 19:34, "The stranger living with you must be treated as one of your native-born, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. I am Yahweh."

 

[Mitspa]

How does one know if the Spirit they are following is of Yahweh.

Since the Spirit says the EXACT same thing as the Law; judging what one thinks is ok, against the Scripture say is ok would be my personal method.

Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

"Law" is word #H8451 - torah - torah: direction, instruction, law Original Word: תּוֹרָה Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: torah

Or is it that as soon as I physically read, "do not steal" and physically think, wow I shouldn't steal, it is then im evil and fallen because I read "the LETTER of the Law"

I knew you would be here Hiz...now lets try to be nice and honest in this debate...I must say you seem like a nice guy anyway Yes the prophecy is fulfilled of the law upon the heart when we receive the Holy Spirit..."for the law is spiritual" and we fulfill the law through faith and love...not through the letter (written code)

 

[AtonedFor]

I provided the verses that you requested re:
one must endure to the end of life to be saved
but you have not responded (as far as I can see).

 

[Mitspa]

Now slow down and lets take it point by point

 

[Hizikyah]

I knew you would be here Hiz...now lets try to be nice and honest in this debate...I must say you seem like a nice guy anyway Yes the prophecy is fulfilled of the law upon the heart when we receive the Holy Spirit..."for the law is spiritual" and we fulfill the law through faith and love...not through the letter (written code)

You made a thread right after you talked about making another thread on this topic, then you comment on my posting here?

What?

Like I ran here to sat LAW, LAW , LAW....

Oh and your reply did not consider anything I said.

 

[Mitspa]

I provided the verses that you requested re:
one must endure to the end of life to be saved
but you have not responded (as far as I can see).

Sure our faith should endure ... but the law is not of faith and those who turn from grace to law have denied the faith.

 

[Mitspa]

You made a thread right after you talked about making another thread on this topic, then you comment on my posting here?

What?

Like I ran here to sat LAW, LAW , LAW....

Oh and your reply did not consider anything I said.

No it just seems like this issue came up one every thread..so I thought best to make its own thread

 

[Hizikyah]

A person that reads the Law and seeks it's true intent is following the Spirit of the Law.

A person that reads the Law and seeks to circumvent it, is in the letter.

Mattithyah 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them: And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"

Mattithyah 15:8-9, "These people draw near to Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

 

[Hizikyah]

No it just seems like this issue came up one every thread..so I thought best to make its own thread

OK, I misread you, respect.

 

[Mitspa]

A person that reads the Law and seeks it's true intent is following the Spirit of the Law.

A person that reads the Law and seeks to circumvent it, is in the letter.

Mattithyah 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them: And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"

Mattithyah 15:8-9, "These people draw near to Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

So your saying that to keep the law in Spirit is to keep its intention (love)? How about what Paul wrote here?

Ro 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

 

[Hizikyah]

A amazing pair of verses IMO;

"To the Law and to the testimony"

Isayah 8:20, "To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

In Isayah and in the final message, Revelation the Law and the Testimony are mentioned.

In the OT; Isayah 8:20, "To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

In the NT; Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

So I have 2 questions:


(If they speak not according to this word, To the Law and to the testimony) IS THERE LIGHT IN THEM?

Does the seed that satan hates keep the Laws of Yahweh and have faith in Yahshua both or just one?

 

[AtonedFor]

Sure our faith should endure ...
but the law is not of faith and those who turn from grace to law have denied the faith.

Shucks, guess you didn't read the 15 verses after all.

I'll save you the effort ... the verses warn:
if your faith does not endure, you do not get eternal life!

 

[Hizikyah]

So your saying that to keep the law in Spirit is to keep its intention (love)? How about what Paul wrote here?

Ro 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

READ 3 verses later;

13 Did that which is righteous, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through that which was righteous, so that through the commandments, sin might become utterly sinful.

25 Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.

 

[Mitspa]

I thought we was going to kinda go point by point? Now what im teaching is the ONLY biblical way to keep the Commandments of God...because they cannot be kept by looking to the written code to justify.

 

[Mitspa]

Shucks, guess you didn't read the 15 verses after all.

I'll save you the effort ... the verses warn:
if your faith does not endure, you do not get eternal life!

Post them here...

 

[Mitspa]

READ 3 verses later;

13 Did that which is righteous, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through that which was righteous, so that through the commandments, sin might become utterly sinful.

25 Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.

Sure we admit and uphold the righteous standard of the law but we also admit the truth that being under the law we cannot fulfill and keep it.... That its actually produces sinful lust and desires in the flesh.

 

[AtonedFor]

Post them here...

Thread: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/104401-bac-must-endure-faith-end-life-saved.html

 

[Hizikyah]

I thought we was going to kinda go point by point? Now what im teaching is the ONLY biblical way to keep the Commandments of God...because they cannot be kept by looking to the written code to justify.

You brought justify into it.


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Or is it that as soon as I physically read, "do not steal" and physically think, wow I shouldn't steal, it is then im evil and fallen because I read "the LETTER of the Law"